Posted anonymously by: Anonymous

Ok, so i’ve read alot here, but I think that some people are missing a very important fact..no church is perfect, I daresay. There is in no way, an arguement that could be said that one church is better than another. Sure, sometimes adventists don’t preach enough clarity, but does everyone? I’ve heard better sermons sometimes in baptist and methodist churches than adventist...but i’ve heard excellent, bible based sermons in adventist churches too that no one can compare to. Why should all adventists be critised for what so few are doing? Why should a whole church fall apart because of a handful of individuals? I challenge you to look beyond 1 or 2 dead churchs and look into the broader picture. I daresay get off your high horse and stop looking down on other churches. How many of you can say that you hear a good, solid, bible based sermon every church services, every week of every month of every year? Excuse me, but you really don’t have a right to come in and challenge churches when you have faults too. Christ said to remove the plank from your eye before removing the splinter from theirs. Start acting it.  Fix your own churches before coming to others and critizing theirs. What i hate about groups like this, is its from outside experience who really, in all honesty, haven’t the slightest clue what they’re talking about. I’d like to see a good solid arguement against the Seventh-Day Adventist Church. For a last fact, its been said by the Catholic church, that the Adventist church is the only true protestant church. Its in written document. And they go furthermore to say, that if you want a church that follows the Bible 100%, then thats the church to go to. I’ve studied this extensively myself, and I daresay that there is no other church that I can find that follows the Bible to the letter as well as the Seventh-Day Adventist Church does. As i’ve stated, yes the church may have some problems, but those can be, and are being fixed. Peace to you all, and God be with you.

Hi anonymous,

You wrote:

“There is in no way, an arguement that could be said that one church is better than another. Sure, sometimes adventists don’t preach enough clarity, but does everyone? I’ve heard better sermons sometimes in baptist and methodist churches than adventist...but i’ve heard excellent, bible based sermons in adventist churches too that no one can compare to. Why should all adventists be critised for what so few are doing? Why should a whole church fall apart because of a handful of individuals? I challenge you to look beyond 1 or 2 dead churchs and look into the broader picture. I daresay get off your high horse and stop looking down on other churches. How many of you can say that you hear a good, solid, bible based sermon every church services, every week of every month of every year? Excuse me, but you really don’t have a right to come in and challenge churches when you have faults too. Christ said to remove the plank from your eye before removing the splinter from theirs. Start acting it. Fix your own churches before coming to others and critizing theirs. What i hate about groups like this, is its from outside experience who really, in all honesty, haven’t the slightest clue what they’re talking about.”
---------------------------------------------------------

Could you be more specific? What do you disagree with in particular with what you have seen on this website?

I want to welcome you anytime to continue to participate and ask further questions.

Stan

Posted anonymously by: Larry1

I notice a distinct lack of time and talk of the fact that the Holy Spirit will be sent to those who believe the true gospel, to keep you saved (sealed!). The SDA church does not uphold the true gospel (tweaked at both extreme ends), so of course they know very little of how the Holy Spirit can retain them in salvation (guide you in your ways). This is the source of all their constant questioning of Christians who do believe the true gospel. They then try to fill in with their man-made doctrines ("verified" by EGW lying visions) when people do not give them properly thought out answers that incorporate the Holy Spirit. Come to that, it is the spirit of antichrist that would ever substitute for the Holy Spirit, or substitute its teachings for the power of the Holy Spirit. The SDA church is one sly beast, beware!

If you do not trust that the Holy Spirit will guide your ways, you do not believe the correct gospel, pure and simple. Start by trusting the correct gospel, and you will be saved.

Are you parsing everything true gospel believers are telling you in an attempt to find a weak spot in which to insert SDA theology? The only other explaination for your “not getting it” is that you still wear the veil over your heart, brought on by believing in EGW as a true prophet, Levitical tithes, clean and unclean meats, and Sabbath observance as correct in relation to salvation.

The SDA church was founded on a lie, pure and simple. Their prophet said that God was in the 1843 timesetting, when we know that this is simply NOT true. God would NOT get the time and event wrong the first time, then the time correct but still the wrong event in 1844. God would also not give Wm. Miller impressions to do timesetting, it is against Gods own word. The devil is the father of timesetting. Any timesetting is of the devil. Any prophet or church that supports these lies will be damned.

Guibox, the SDA prophet and church are either of God or of the Devil. It cannot be both or part of one and part of the other. It is black and white. When the SDA church teaches a tweaked, comprimised gospel as HAS BEEN ABUNDANTLY SHOWN, you can be assured it is of the Devil. Galations 1:8 makes it abundantly clear who is damned for teaching another gospel! Get out (of spiritual Babylon) now and repent of that stuff, immediately. Don’t make me come back and post tersely!

Yeah, well. Sorry Larry, your methodology isn’t winning me over in any fashion. Things aren’t as cut and dried as you’d like us to think. It is easy to speak in absolutes when one thinks (like the SDA church you accuse) that they have all the truth on everything.

If I wanted to read the above diatribe, I’d waste my time on FAF. However, thanks for your efforts.

It is interesting to see how the apostle Paul seemingly overlooks all manner of sinful behavior in the Corinthian church, even offering thanks for them (1 Corinthians 1:3-9), yet for the “law-abiding” Galatians, he offers only a stern rebuke (Galatians 1:6-10).  There’s a lesson here that we would do well to learn–we are guilty of far worse than adultery if we tamper with the gospel.

Paul rightfully chastened the Galatians for wandering from the gospel, just as a father would discipline his own child.  We make a mistake, however, when we assume our role is the same as Paul’s.

The good news speaks for itself and contains more than enough power to expose any bad news masquerading as gospel truth.

In reading through the end of Philippians 1 and on to chapter 2, it’s very interesting to read Paul’s commands to the Philippian church.  “[Let] your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ...[stand] firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel” (Philippians 1:27).  But Paul does not stop there, exhorting those who would stand for the gospel to “[be] in full accord and one mind”, and “do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others” (Philippians 2:2-4).

I think we can learn a lot from these inspired words.

Greg

[quote author="guibox"]Yeah, well. Sorry Larry, your methodology isn’t winning me over in any fashion. Things aren’t as cut and dried as you’d like us to think. It is easy to speak in absolutes when one thinks (like the SDA church you accuse) that they have all the truth on everything.

If I wanted to read the above diatribe, I’d waste my time on FAF. However, thanks for your efforts.

Guibox, I have to agree with you on this one. We would like to strive for a different tone and spirit on this forum, since this forum serves a different purpose than other forums.

Speaking the truth in love is a difficult principle to balance, as I have been guilty of violating this principle many times.

Stan

If the devil has a claim on the sda church, it is our obligation to tell people of it, to warn them to either get out, or if they are not members of such, warn them against being ensnared by such.

It really is black and white, despite language used on this thread to make it seem otherwise.

Guibox, if your main object is to keep the others here playing spiritual ping pong with you, have at it. Just admit it however.

Were you trying to spin my post in a negative light by using the word “diatribe” ?

It is the truth in my post that should be winning you over, not the methodology. “judging a book by its cover”.

I notice you did not refute any facts in my above post.

Larry,

Nobody is denying that a distortion of the gospel is dangerous.  You and others, however, are muddying the waters when you use the term “spiritual claim” or “devil has a claim” when referring to our Adventist brothers and sisters.

Who of us came into this world without such a “claim” on us?  All of us were born in sin and delivered into this world in a spiritually dead condition.  If any of us is resurrected to new life in Christ, it should be cause for great celebration.  The one who finds himself spiritually regenerated only tarnishes what has been done for him in Christ by exposing the flaws of others without conveying a sense of lovingkindness, grace and humility that can only come from receiving the unmerited favor of Jesus.

The apostle Paul was chased out of the synagogues by the Jews and imprisoned and beaten by the Roman authorities, yet not once do we see him engaging in verbal sparring with his detractors or captors.  No, he saw himself as a living sacrifice, preferring to die so that others would be saved rather than saving himself (Romans 9:1-3).  The cause of Christ would be advanced significantly if more current and former Adventists adopted this approach.

Greg

Larry, your problem is speaking in the extremes and then tweaking those extremes to become absolutes. Your post smacks of ‘I have all the truth and whats more, I know exactly what is untruth and can determine it simply by my interpretation of my version of SDA history.”

Who are you to say that a church or people don’t have the Holy Spirit? Who are you to say that it is either from God or the devil? You sound like the midieval Catholic Church.
If human error means being ‘led by the devil’ then it is you, your church, and your former-SDA friends and all their ‘false doctrine’ that are also in trouble, not simply SDAs.

[quote author="Larry"]I notice a distinct lack of time and talk of the fact that the Holy Spirit will be sent to those who believe the true gospel, to keep you saved (sealed!). The SDA church does not uphold the true gospel (tweaked at both extreme ends), so of course they know very little of how the Holy Spirit can retain them in salvation (guide you in your ways)

And what is the true gospel? Some of our brethren here believe that the true gospel involves Calvinism and once saved always saved. Do you believe that? If not, they could accuse you of the same thing. To them saying that we can choose to reject God and fall away from our walk is just as blasphemous as what you accuse SDAs of saying.

If in fact that gospel’s true message is that Christ came to save us from our sins by grace through faith without our works, then this is what SDAs believe as well.

Everyone does their own bit of tweaking, Larry. Please don’t accuse the SDA church of being part of Satan’s kingdom simply because they don’t agree with your brand of ‘gospel’.

[quote author="Larry"]They then try to fill in with their man-made doctrines ("verified" by EGW lying visions) when people do not give them properly thought out answers that incorporate the Holy Spirit.

So giving an opinion from scripture is ‘man made doctrines’? So not having a ‘properly througt out answer’ and ‘incorporating the Holy Spirit’ go hand in hand. Now you see where you are moving to an absolute?

[quote author="Larry"]Come to that, it is the spirit of antichrist that would ever substitute for the Holy Spirit, or substitute its teachings for the power of the Holy Spirit. The SDA church is one sly beast, beware!

So now you have moved from ‘not properly speaking answers’ to the SDA church having the ‘spirit of Anti-Christ’ and actually ‘substituting its teachings for the power of the Holy Spirit’

Really Larry, how in the world did you come to that conclusion in less than two paragraphs? With what support?

[quote author="Larry"]If you do not trust that the Holy Spirit will guide your ways, you do not believe the correct gospel, pure and simple. Start by trusting the correct gospel, and you will be saved.

So another absolute. The SDA church does not trust the Holy Spirit? And why is that?

[quote author="Larry"]The only other explaination for your “not getting it” is that you still wear the veil over your heart, brought on by believing in EGW as a true prophet, Levitical tithes, clean and unclean meats, and Sabbath observance as correct in relation to salvation.

Really? So the fact that I don’t get it when formers or other Christians try to pawn off on me that Sabbath is not valid anymore or that God will indeed torture my loved ones in an eternally burning hell for billions of years, it is because my mind is clouded by Levitical services and not eating unclean meats??

Wow! And to think all this time it I thought it was because I don’t see any biblical merit in the doctrines! So if I can find just as much scriptural evidence (and believe me I can!) to support my views, it doesn’t matter because what you believe is correct interpretation! Then you need to find another excuse to condemn.

[quote author="Larry"]The SDA church was founded on a lie, pure and simple. Their prophet said that God was in the 1843 timesetting, when we know that this is simply NOT true..

The prophet did NOT say that ‘God was in the 1843 time setting. The prophet was a 16 year old girl at the time involved in a movement that had a lot of hype. The prophet was a babe in the matter of spiritual matters. Do you leave no room for growth, change and even human error?

[quote author="Larry"]God would NOT get the time and event wrong the first time, then the time correct but still the wrong event in 1844…

God did not. Man did. Man makes mistakes and man learns from them.

[quote author="Larry"]God would also not give Wm. Miller impressions to do timesetting, it is against Gods own word. The devil is the father of timesetting. Any timesetting is of the devil. Any prophet or church that supports these lies will be damned.

And the dandy of all absolutes. I guess I can believe all matters of heresy and still be okay, but timesetting! Well, that is the real abomination!

So if you believe timesetting is unbiblical, wrong, and of the devil and Miller is of the devil for doing it, what about Calvin? According to what you have branded the SDAs as, Calvin was a huge supporter of Sunday Sabbatarianism? That would mean that HIS mind was ‘clouded by Sabbath observance’ and therefore could not ‘receive the working of the Holy Spirit’. By promoting Sunday Sabbatarinism, he would basically be ‘having a veil over his heart’ too.

So Calvin wasn’t a real Christian I guess?

Where do you stop in your diatribe of absolutes and condemnation that one can find myriads of loop holes and applications to?

This is why I shake my head at such nonsense rhetoric that too many formers espouse. Thank God we don’t need to deal with that here...at least we didn’t before.

Your approach isn’t fully truthful, it is not tactful and doesn’t do anything to convict, Larry. If that is how you like to do your methodology, you won’t find many adherents to it here.

Larry,

We all had and we still have our blind spots, and share errors which are unknown to us. In time we will come to see some of them, and reject them, but it’s possible to have these errors all our life. Some of them are sufficiently serious to affect our present and future destiny, and these are errors dealing with salvation. This is why this forum is dedicated to presenting the truths regarding salvation.

Since we both were adventists at one time and I shared your view until recently, I’m acquainted with the abuse of trust and with the spiritual abuse we experienced in the SDA church. Our experiences may be different, but at least we know how belief in an infallible prophet affected us in a negative way. 

In cases of abuses, the great danger of perpetuating the abuse is ever present, and former adventists must be on guard of showing the same attitude toward their former friends. If we came to a better understanding, let us not resort to threats regarding secondary issues. We must know better than the adventists how it feels when we were condemned for having a different view regarding Ellen White.  This is why I asked formers, who I consider in a better and more favorable position than adventists, not to condemn adventists for having a different attitude toward Ellen White than they have. Why should we repeat the mistakes of adventists?

Gabriel

Posted anonymously by: Bobj

This comment has been moved here.

[quote author="Larry"]If the devil has a claim on the sda church, it is our obligation to tell people of it, to warn them to either get out, or if they are not members of such, warn them against being ensnared by such.

This is indeed our obligation to tell people about this claim, if indeed such a claim exist. I agree with you, and this is a serious, perhaps the most serious charge against the SDA church, and if we are going to make it, we must be sure that it is founded on solid proofs, biblical proofs, which will pass the test of reality.

Perhaps you are familiar with this quote from Great Controversy, 1858 Edition, chapter 33

I saw the state of the different churches since the second angel proclaimed their fall. They have been growing more and more corrupt; yet they bear the name of being Christ’s followers. It is impossible to distinguish them from the world. [...] Satan has taken full possession of the churches as a body.

The last statement affects in a negative way Ellen’s credibility, she overstated her case against the other churches. In other place she even said that believers were left to worship Satan, who took the place of Jesus in the Holy apartment, place which became void by Jesus’ departure.
Even adventists are not comfortable with this view of her, considering it a mistake which needs not to be repeated. A more careful and realistic approach is needed when dealing with the issue of condemning a whole church for worshiping Satan, or being under his possession, with a claim on it.

Larry, how can you came to the belief that Satan has a claim on SDA church, a claim which he has not on another churches? I became acquainted with this idea, and shared it for some time, because Colleen, in her testimony which is available on the FAF site, http://formeradventist.com/tinker9.html
After relating her exchange of words with her son, she said

My son relaxed visibly, but I was electrified. I had never thought about Satan having a claim on Adventism before.

She mentioned previously that she prayed to God to help her gave a good answer to her son.

I continued to pray silently, I had a thought that I heard myself explaining. It was a thought I’d never had before, and the words coming out of my mouth startled me.

It becomes obvious that she was sincerely believing that these thoughts, which she had not previously before, were thoughts that had their source in the Holy Spirit Himself, since she never come to the point of knowing them by studying the Bible. She claims for her views the highest authority, the authority of the Holy Spirit, which, according to her words, surprised her.

She let simply her words to go unchecked on the premise that they cannot be otherwise than God’s words, which helped her in that situation, and also expect those who are hearing her story to believe on the basis of this particular experience and personal impression that Satan has a claim on the SDA church he has not on other churches.

She is right that Satan has a claim, he has a claim on the entire world, not only on the SDA church.

“We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.” 1 John 5:19

“And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world–...” Rev. 12:9

This difference between what the Bible says and her position, makes me doubt that the Holy Spirit gave Colleen those words. A warning signal is that she simply accepted this experience to be self-authenticated: “I have not thought these thoughts before, surely they must be not my thought but Holy Spirit’s thoughts”. No testing of the spirits by the objective standard of the Bible, only a simple and sincere belief that the Holy Spirit talked to her at that particular time and circumstances.

I remember Hiram Edson’s vision in the cornfield. He claimed that he for the first time saw that Jesus passed from Holy to the Holy of Holies, and what cames afterward was a searching in the Bible with the goal of proving this point. It was not a point of view which came after the study of the Bible, and the answer came to a similar prayer to God for guidance.

Hiram Edson was sincere in his beliefs, still he was wrong. The followers perpetuated his wrong impression and made it a test of faith, and measured people after this “vision”.
Ellen White had visions too which confirmed Edson’s first vision. But it was always difficult to prove the validity of the first vision by sound exegesis, and this is also true regarding the claim of Satan on the SDA church.

I wait for a solid study which will prove that Satan has a claim on the SDA church, which he has not on other churches. I have not seen it until now, this is not a proof that it cannot be done. Larry, If you want to share with us your biblical proofs (not proof texts, of course), feel free to do it.

Gabriel

Larry,

I don’t mean to pick on you, but you seem to reflect the thoughts of the moderator on FAF quite well.

You did the same with the statement you made on Catholicism:

Your FAF post reads as follows:

“Keep in mind that the catholic church was NOT founded on deception. While the links you post tell us of possible corruption that has crept in, they were not founded on this. I think it is the roots of the movement that are THE MOST important. Can we all agree that Satan was not the originator of the catholic church, unlike the SDA organization?”
-------------------------------------------------------

So again you are saying that Catholicism does not have the same claim of Satan on it as Adventists.

But notice this statement from John MacArthur:

‘Reclassifying the Pope, reclassifying the Roman Catholics as believers isn’t that simple.  It has massive implications.  It has implications that literally overturn centuries of missionary effort.  It has massive implications that overturn centuries, if not millennia of martyrdom.  In the long war on the truth, the most formidable, relentless and deceptive enemy has been Roman Catholicism.  It is an apostate, corrupt, heretical, false Christianity, it is a front for the kingdom of Satan.  The true church of the Lord Jesus Christ has always understood this.  And even through the Dark Ages from 400 to 1500, prior to the Reformation, genuine Christian believers set themselves apart from that system, and were brutally punished and executed for their rejection of that system.  It’s not my purpose tonight to go into all that is Roman Catholicism and we will do that in the fall, we will do that.  We’ll take a look at it from many angles.  But those believers throughout those centuries along with genuine and discerning believers today understand this is a false system.  It has a false priesthood.  It has a false source of revelation, tradition and the magisterium.  It has illegitimate power granted to it by this magisterium, this papal curia.  It engages in idolatry by the worship of saints and the veneration of angels.  It conducts a horrific exaltation of Mary above Christ and even God.  It conducts a twisted sacrament of the Mass by which Jesus is sacrificed again and again.  It offers false forgiveness through the confessional.  It calls for the uselessness of infant baptism and other sacraments.”
----------------------------------------------

Notice Larry, MacArthur calls the RCC a front for the Kingdom of Satan. For the record, he doesn’t classify Adventism in the same way.

MacArthur knows SDA very well, and while he admits they have a lot of problems, it is not the same as RCC.

Stan

Though I believe that the comparisons between Catholicism and Adventism are there this is mostly in toned down methodology and not Christian validity.

It amazes me that some people hate the church they once loved and embraced so much that they have to make Rome (that has persecuted, killed, oppressed people at all costs to maintain their system of beliefs, lording over the people the elite thinking that they have the truth and ‘no salvation outside the church’ can be obtained) a better system despite the work of the Reformation and all the blood that has been spilled trying to get away from it.

Larry you say that the SDA church is founded on deception. If this were so, what has God wrought from it? Which do you think is worse: a church founded on deception used mightily by God to establish an amazing world wide movement full of educational, missionary, disaster relief and medical prowess of a people who love the Lord and desire to bring the knowledge of Jesus Christ to the world in their own, human fallible way that sometimes falls short?

Or a system that started out good, thought they knew better, fell into pagan apostasy, persecuted Christians, witheld the bible from its people, killed those who opposed it using the scriptures themselves, controlling the spiritual lives of the people and ‘withholding’ salvation from them, even ‘taking it away’ (in the minds of the people), obtaining corrupt political and temporal power and using that politics to further their worldly ambition? Refusing to compromise on issues and excommunicating (thus consigning them to hell according to their thought) those that refuse to bow the knee to Rome?

No my friend, you and the many formers on FAF need to have a reality check and see how much your hate for Adventism is controlling your reason.

I think it is time that some folks let it go and move on in their Christian walk. I think they’d be much happier Christians if they did.

I want to re-emphasize Gabriel’s observations.  Anytime a person claims to have a private revelation from God that is not substantiated by the Scriptures, significant error can result.  Those who spend so much time criticizing Adventists for their “foundational error” should consider what lies at the foundation of their own efforts.

Guibox, you said “I think it is time that some folks let it go and move on in their Christian walk. I think they’d be much happier Christians if they did.”

I agree.  Where is the joy in continual fault-finding?  1 Peter 3:15-17 shows us the biblical way to defend the Christian faith, but sadly this method is employed all too infrequently.

Greg