Posted anonymously by: ane

Pastor Williams

I’m referring to one of your proof texts you posted earlier from 1 Timothy 4. According to that it appears one can be deeply deceived over “seemingly harmless” teachings like telling people they have to abstain from certain foods or abstain from marriage. Paul calls these doctrines of demons in the NASB translation.

[quote author="Ane"]
The terminology endure to the end, run the race etc. does not appear to mean “works” to me or that I contribute anything.

But rather we are told we will be persecuted for our beliefs. We have to endure that and muddle on through it.

Ane, that’s a great point. I see Matthew 24:13 as Jesus comforting those who will go through the terrible trials mentioned earlier in the chapter. We make a serious error if we turn this passage on its head and overturn a host of other texts to “prove” that we contribute one ounce to our salvation by “enduring to the end”.

We endure because Jesus endured our sins on the cross, because his blood is powerful enough to justify and sanctify us. We endure because he has given us the Holy Spirit who is a guarantee of our inheritance. We endure because we have been seated in the heavenly places in Christ. We endure because nothing can separate us from the love of God.

This is why the gospel is really good news! Not only has Jesus saved us from our sins, he has given us everything we need to endure in him until the end. Isn’t that great news?

Greg

Here is what John MacArthur says about Matthew 24:13:

[quote author="John MacArthur"]
Matthew 24:13 says, “He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” How will you be able to tell who the true believers are? They won’t defect from Christ, false teachers won’t deceive them, and they won’t love evil. Those who endure until the end are the true Christians. They will be delivered from the wrath to come-- God’s judgment at the end of the age (1 Thess. 1:10). Endurance is always the mark of the saved.

Source here.

[quote author="John MacArthur"]
And then verse 13, “But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.” How can you tell the saved? Because the saved don’t...what?...they don’t defect, do they? They don’t defect. They’re not going to go away because the price is too high. They’re not going to go away because they’re deceived. They’re not going to go away because they love evil. And so, you just keep watching and the ones that endure to the end, they’re what? They’re the saved. And they will be delivered out of that. Some will die and some will live, but they will all be delivered...whether in life or death...they will be delivered from the wrath to come. Endurance is always the mark of the mark of the saved...endurance is always the mark of the saved. They endure...they endure to the end.

In Matthew 10:22, Jesus said it, “And you shall be hated of all men for My namesake, but he that endures to the end shall be saved.” The man who...in that statement, Jesus was saying who goes to the end of his life and endures whatever comes, gives demonstration that he is one who in the end will be saved. He’ll be delivered out of this life into the glories of heaven. And so it will be in the future, the one who endures all of that, the one who in the terms of Revelation 2:10 is an overcomer, he is an overcomer, he is the one who will be saved...no matter what the persecution, no matter what the price. What a wonderful promise.

Luke 21:19 put it this way, marvelous statement, “In your endurance, you will gain your souls.” What a great statement. It is the one who endures by God’s power, God’s grace who wins in the end. That faith...the faith that perseveres is the faith of the saved...the faith of the redeemed.

Source here.

While the topic of the end times is a solemn one, Jesus’ promise that those with true faith will “endure to the end” is a great comfort.

Greg

Posted anonymously by: Ane

Yes Greg it is good news. It is the very assurance that is what has radically changed me and turned my heart around ... as well as so many others that I know.

Greg,

That post of yours above with the blue lettering is a wonderful summary of all the pertinent texts. The texts are so plain in what they teach, but those who are reading the Bible through the presuppositions of Ellen White’s writings, or their own ideas as to how God SHOULD operate, will add thoughts like you have put into the blue writings.

We have a hard time in our human condition accepting the plain teaching that salvation is all of grace, and all of God’s doing.

Thanks Greg for making my day. Things are tough right now for us, but at least I have time to read, but not much time to post.Thanks again for a well written post.

Stan

[quote author="dwayne"]Great illustration, Greg.

I cannot fathom a Christian desiring to reject God’s grace and “choosing to be lost”. What an oxymoronical concept! Definitely not Biblical.

Really? The entire Old Testament is precisely this story .

Beginning with Adam and Eve on through the delivery from Egypt to the times of the judges, prophets and kings.

God’s chose ones, who He had delivered from slavery, whose enemies He’d defeated, who He had fed and provided water to in the desert, who time after time delivered them from the kingdoms round about them, ultimately rejected Him.

Stephen basically recited this account in his testimony before the Sanhredin (Acts 7:51-53 in particular). 

Thanks for the MacArthur quote on Matthew 24:13. But I don’t think he says anything that refutes the idea that the enduring is a response, an experience, a process on our part, assuming of course that it is done In Christ and as a result of the grace received through conversion/regeneration. 

[quote author="Stan"] That post of yours above with the blue lettering is a wonderful summary of all the pertinent texts. The texts are so plain in what they teach, but those who are reading the Bible through the presuppositions of Ellen White’s writings, or their own ideas as to how God SHOULD operate, will add thoughts like you have put into the blue writings.

I couldn’t help noticing there were no selections from Matthew, Mark or Luke.

From Matthew 5:

3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

.......

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

..........

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

Matthew 7:

12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them , I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Matthew 10:

32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Matthew 18:

23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Matthew 25:

14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord’s money.

19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Luke 10:

25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise .

..........

I’ll stop there.

But I think this sampling is evidence enough that at least Jesus considered our response and our doing a vital part of what it meant to be in Him and to have the Gospel. It isn’t just an Ellen White thing.

[quote author="glennspring"]
God’s chose ones, who He had delivered from slavery, whose enemies He’d defeated, who He had fed and provided water to in the desert, who time after time delivered them from the kingdoms round about them, ultimately rejected Him.

It’s important to make the distinction between the nation of Israel and God’s elect. Indeed, the nation of Israel was chosen by God to reveal himself to the world, even bringing the Seed (Jesus) from within their ranks. But every person within the nation of Israel was not elect and this is exactly Paul’s point in Romans 11:

“What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened...” (Romans 11:7 ESV)

God used the Israelites to bring salvation to the Gentiles, and in turn, the salvation of the Gentiles was designed by God to bring the rebellious Israelites to repentance:

“So I ask, did [the Israelites] stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean! Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.” (Romans 11:11-14 ESV)

[quote author="glennspring"]
Thanks for the MacArthur quote on Matthew 24:13. But I don’t think he says anything that refutes the idea that the enduring is a response, an experience, a process on our part, assuming of course that it is done In Christ and as a result of the grace received through conversion/regeneration.

If our “enduring” is a result of grace received through conversion/regeneration, who gets the credit? Certainly not us! It is all of grace, all of God’s mercy, and not anything in us that is capable of enduring. Just as we were unable to spiritually resurrect ourselves when we were dead in sins, so too are we unable to endure to the end without God’s continual work on our behalf. We contribute nothing to this, otherwise we would have cause for boasting in our salvation (Ephesians 2:8-10). Too many (including Ellen White) have used selected passages of Scripture to teach that we are somehow left to “endure to the end” on our own, or “stand without a mediator"--as if the Christian life is some sort of spiritual marathon. In contrast, consider how the man with the possessed child asked Jesus to help his unbelief (Mark 9:24) and how the disciples asked him to increase their faith (Luke 17:5-6) and how Jesus is named in Hebrews as the “author and finisher of our faith” (Hebrews 12:2 KJV).

All of this biblical evidence points in one direction--our faith and perserverance are gifts of God’s grace for which we can take absolutely no credit. “He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion” (Philippians 1:6). This is the good news, but for some, the good news is just too good to be true. Jesus came to this world to proclaim this glorious good news (Mark 1:14-15)--may we be ovewhelmed, saved, humbled, renewed, and kept by it!

Greg

Posted anonymously by: dwayne

[quote author="glennspring"][quote author="dwayne"]Great illustration, Greg.

I cannot fathom a Christian desiring to reject God’s grace and “choosing to be lost”. What an oxymoronical concept! Definitely not Biblical.

Really? The entire Old Testament is precisely this story .

Really. Define “Christian” and let’s see.

Glenn, here’s another passage from Matthew that shows that the teachings of Jesus recorded in the synoptic gospels are not at odds with John’s gospel or Paul’s epistles:

“At that time Jesus declared, ‘I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.’” (Matthew 11:25-30 ESV)

Looking at this passage in detail, we see the following:

1. God the Father has hidden the knowledge of Himself and His grace from the wise, showing a preference to reveal Himself to those of low status
2. In revealing Himself, God is demonstrating His gracious will, since He owes mankind nothing and is not obligated to reveal Himself to even one sinner
3. All the power of heaven was given to Jesus by the Father
4. Jesus has full discretion to reveal the Father to anyone He chooses
5. In His grace, Jesus calls us to find rest from our labors in Him, replacing our heavy burdens with His yoke, which by comparison is “easy” and “light”

Please consider that God is not obligated to forgive the sins of even one person, therefore He is not obligated to save even one person. Because of our sinful nature, we deserve God’s wrath (Ephesians 2:3, John 3:36). The psalmist confirms this in saying, “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.” (Psalm 51:5 ESV) Therefore, if God chooses to save even one of us, He is being supremely gracious. What’s more, He took on human flesh to suffer and die for our sins, experiencing more pain than we can ever imagine.

That God saves lowly sinners (of which I am the chief example) is no cause for boasting and ultimate cause for rejoicing. That He continues to work in our lives, perfecting us until we receive imperishable bodies in eternity with Him is unfathomable. This is the greatest good gift He could possibly give--forgiveness of sins--so that we can spend eternity enjoying His presence. Let the name of our gracious God be praised!

Greg

Amen Greg!

Glenn,
I am really appreciating reading your questions and challenges both on this thread, and the “Pelagian” thread, and your interaction with Greg has relly been great to read. I especially have enjoyed the spirit and tone of the conversation.

I don’t see any contradiction between the synoptic gospels and the gospel of John.

One must remember that recent research shows that John was likely to be one of the latest books of the Bible, and was likely written even after Revelation. The synoptic gospels were written quite early, and in these gospels, Jesus is primarily speaking with the Jews, and giving an apocalyptic and warning about the coming doom for national Israel in AD 70.

However, John was the last word to the Christian church, along with the epistles, and the Holy Spirit through John and Paul wanted to convey the final teachings of grace as taught by the very words of Jesus to the Christian church through his apostles. Also, remember that Paul got his message directly from Jesus while he was in the desert of Arabia (See Galatians 1). So, if there appears to be a contradiction, it is really not, as Jesus spent a lot of time in the synoptics speaking to the Jews, who thought they were great law keepers, but Jesus taught them how really deficient in their understanding was. But there are many examples in Matthew thru Luke, where the same doctrines of grace and election are pointed out. I will try to give more examples later if I have any time.

There is a great book out there that I would like to recommend on this topic, and that is Michael Horton’s book called “Putting Amazing Back Into Grace”. The questions posed on this thread, as well as the Pelagian thread are really answered clearly and in easy to read style by Michael Horton. I have a few extra copies at home, so please email me at if you would like to read it.

Stan

Glenn,

I just spent time going over the quotations you gave from the synoptic gospels.

All those imperatives and commands for behavior are given to us as well as genuine believers. Because, if we are truly born again, and new creatures in Christ, then, our wills are changed, and we will endeavor to obey the commands of Christ. However, we will always fall short of the ideals above that you quoted. We must take everything Jesus said on a subject. In Matthew 24, Jesus talks about ‘signs and wonders, false prophets, that IF it were possible, they would deceive the very elect’. Jesus is certainly strongly implying that it is not possible to deceive the very elect.

And then it is clear that the very last words of Jesus to the Christian church are included in John 10:28-30 where Jesus plainly states that all His sheep will hear his voice, and THEY WILL NEVER PERISH. Nothing can pluck them from my hand, or the Father’s hand.

So there is no statement in Matthew of Jesus that can possibly be interpreted to contradict the very clearest statements of Jesus in John.

I will repeat, that Jesus spoke in parables and veiled language in the synoptic gospels, but he spoke very clearly through the apostle John and the apostle Paul. When Jesus says in Matthew, that ‘he who endures to the end will be saved’ interpreted in the light of John 10:28-30 MUST mean that this will be an accomplished fact.

Soli Deo Gloria (All the glory for our salvation is to God alone),

Stan

The scripture in Matthew 24 I was looking for is here:

24"For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect”
-------------------------------------------------

The statement IF POSSIBLE says it all, and John 10:28-30 says it is not possible.

Stan

I don’t think there is a contradiction between the epistles of Paul and the gospels. I think they have different emphases.