DeeAnna,

I agree with your Baptist friend ... this isn’t just happening in the SDA church, but Adventism is what I know best so it is what I can best address. I was a member for 40+ years, grew up in the church school system, was a 3rd generation SDA and worked for the church for most of my adult years.

I agree old church formats are not working ... the SDA church I grew up in has confused ritual with “being the right church format” and that particular church could not be more dead. Church formats should change ... but not the Gospel and its Doctrines. We CANNOT reinvent those. They are as solid as the day Christ founded His church on them! The Gospel isn’t broken ... it does not need fixing. There will always be those who reject it and those who will rush to it. Our job is not to decide who those are, our job is to proclaim it anyway and not hide it. The Apostle Paul didn’t beat around the bush, he immediately found a way to declare who His Jesus was. He shared the Gospel up front and center! Many responded to the Gospel immediately.

Having worked for the SDA church for a number of years, here is what I in hindsight can see happening. The SDA church is not growing. It is dying fast and furious. Instead of admitting that people are leaving over unorthodox doctrines ... they have to look for another excuse. In an attempt to fix that problem, Adventism looked towards certain mega churches that were growing fast and furious to adopt what seemed to be working for them, hoping it would also work for Adventism. They even purchased the rights from these churches to use their well known materials. They got permission to change whatever needed to be changed to make the materials appear more Adventist, slapped SDA labels on them and re-sold them packaged as though SDA. I know because I participated in that.

Unfortunately Adventism is now looking towards a particular branch of the Emergent Church that is evil in every sense of the word ... but heavily disguised in persuasive thinking and logic that actually makes sense if you are not grounded in the Word. I know this because I was unknowingly a part of helping promote this re-church effort within Adventism. I was just still too Lucy Laodicea at the time, was not grounded in the word and knew nothing of the Emergent Church nor Adventism’s admiration of this movement, so I willingly participated in these efforts because they sounded great, made sense and I wanted to make a difference! For this I must repent! I’m without excuse.

The Apostle Paul tells us in Galatians 1:8-9 that any other Gospel is cursed. And he goes so far as to tell us that if we fall for any other Gospel we have deserted the Gospel (see Galatians 1:6). The term deserted is a military term that means you’ve gone and joined the enemy camp. DeeAnna traditional Adventism doesn’t present the pure Gospel! It saddens me to say that. I grew up being Pollyanna SDA. I loved being Adventist! This discovery broke my heart.

DeeAnna not only does the SDA church have another gospel now they are joining with these other churches who are watering down the Gospel. The enemy has convinced them a water down gospel is more attractive than the true unadulterated Gospel.

And before the rest of you jump on me and come to the defense of Adventism, I am not referring to individual SDAs who were fortunate enough to truly arrive at the pure Gospel in spite of Adventism. I am directly addressing the foundation of Adventism. What does the denomination at the core of its very foundation believe ... not the group of enlighten SDAs who choose to remain and reinvent Adventism for themselves. I’m basing my information on the denomination itself, not individual enlightened members, who yes I do know exist.

Adventism at its core does not have the true Gospel. They have another Gospel ... the very thing the Apostle Paul warned us abou falling for. And instead of stepping up to the plate and acknowledging that due to the fear of losing too many members, afraid the structure will crash ... Adventism is actually creating exactly what they feared would happen ... their cursed gospel is causing them to loose too many members (see Galatians 1:8-9). And since they with another gospel and have now joined the enemy camp, they can’t see that partnering up with the Emergent Church camp is a bigger mistake taking them further away from THE Gospel. Their new approach may actually help them gain masses but that simply means more are joining the enemy camp. Satan must indeed be happy.

And those of you who want to attack my stance. Most of you have already mentally left, what I simply physically left. You are no more SDA than I. You have just reinvented a form of Adventism to make it comfortable to remain there. And I truly pray that God will use you there in a way to make a difference. I too tried that approach, but found out I could make the biggest difference by leaving. And now that I’m on the outside I am finding people so hungry for the Gospel I cannot feed them fast enough. It is a huge lie to say that in spite of Adventism’s imperfections, nothing better exists! I too believed that at one time ... but it is lie of mass proportions! There are churches out there that have more truth in the tip of their little finger than Adventism has in both hands. And PEOPLE WANT THAT, they are flocking to that. They want truth, they want the pure Gospel. They are so hungry for the Good News! Folks Christianity isn’t broken ... and to those that think they have to fix the very church Christ founded need only to look to Him and His Apostles to see how to attract people to Him.

DeeAnna,

First, I want to welcome you here. I am glad you found us and I am praying that you find something of value here that will help put your current church situation into perspective.

Second, I agree wholeheartedly with what Ane said. Many of us here have come to the sad conclusion that at its core, Adventism does not emphasize the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the sole means for the sinner’s righteousness. I also grew up in the Adventist church and was saddened to discover that Adventism was built on a mistake–a mistake by William Miller in setting a date for the second coming of Christ. Instead of owning up to that mistake like William Miller did, the early Adventists merely changed the event to something that could not be verified. Instead of Christ returning to earth in 1844, Christ merely moved from one heavenly apartment to another. What should have been a big wake up call for the followers of William Miller turned into an exercise in covering up the error they embraced. Admittedly, it would have been very difficult to acknowledge this error having given up everything (including in many cases selling all of their possessions) to prepare for Christ’s return.

Because of this shaky beginning, Adventism has had trouble identifying itself with the core of the Christian faith–the gospel of Jesus Christ–since this is a message which is believed by Adventists to be held by every other “nominal” Christian church. As you are finding out, however, many churches are in disarray because they have traded the solid foundation of the Scriptures, Jesus Christ and the gospel with church growth programs and new theological “insights”. Many within the Emergent Church movement even question whether the true meaning of the words of Scripture can possibly be known, allowing them to cook up whatever “truth” they’d like to believe. For example, Brian McLaren, widely considered one of the leaders of this movement, has said that he’s not even sure that converts from other religions like Buddhism and Hinduism should actually leave, but rather “follow Christ” in their own tradition. If Adventism adopts this kind of thinking, the farm has truly been sold and there is nothing solid left to stand upon.

My point is that much of the so-called “Christian church” has given away the foundations of the true Christian church and is relying on new methods to win converts. Adventism, because of the shaky foundation it is built upon, is particularly susceptible to this and I expect the trend will only grow worse.

What I and many of the others here have sadly concluded is that we must go to churches where the good news of Jesus Christ is faithfully proclaimed. While it was a painful thing to do, the gospel is too important to allow compromise, and as Ane said, this is why the apostle Paul was so strong in his condemnation of anyone who would preach something different (Galatians 1:8-9). All the church growth programs, lifestyle reform, and end-time prophecies amount to nothing if the solid foundation of the gospel is not firmly in place.

DeAnna, I pray that you will hear what we are saying not as a personal condemnation of anyone within Adventism, but as an explanation for why many of us have left. There are Christian churches that faithfully protect, preach and live the historic Christian faith, and if you feel moved by the Spirit, I encourage you to look for them.

Thank you again for joining us, and please don’t hesitate to reply with any questions you may have. Expressing these concepts is difficult without being misunderstood, so if anything is unclear, please let us know.

Blessings in Christ,

Greg

Here is a quote from Brian McLaren that reflects what Greg just said about him:

“I don’t believe making disciples must equal making adherents to the Christian religion. It may be advisable in many (not all!) circumstances to help people become followers of Jesus and remain within their Buddhist, Hindu or Jewish contexts … rather than resolving the paradox via pronouncements on the eternal destiny of people more convinced by or loyal to other religions than ours, we simply move on … To help Buddhists, Muslims, Christians, and everyone else experience life to the full in the way of Jesus (while learning it better myself), I would gladly become one of them (whoever they are), to whatever degree I can, to embrace them, to join them, to enter into their world without judgment but with saving love as mine has been entered by the Lord (A Generous Orthodoxy, 260, 262, 264).”

Thank you’s to Stan, Quibox, Ane, and Greg for taking the time to repond to my questions. I have a lot more understanding now of this “postmodern” business. I think I must have been really out of touch because I have learned some new words: emergent movement and the seeker senstitive movement !! 
The new things in the church are not the way I like to see church. The beginnings of my dissatisfaction was when the “celebration” issue started. The part of church I love the most and what “speaks” to me is the music..and rock and roll does not reflect the character of God or give him honor. ( in my opinion )
I do have a question. I have read other parts of this website and a lot of the comments. I have to say I’m not as intellectually gifted as you all....and so a lot of the heavy stuff is lost on me.....but...is what you all are saying is that you all feel the Adventist church was founded on a mistake...and that the true gospel is salvation through Jesus Christ. ( I believe that, of course)...but what then ?  What do you all do with the Sabbath and other doctrinal issues ?  Are those of no consequence ?  After you all have decided to leave the SDA church...where do you find true gospel churches?  Non-demoninational ???  I think I am a bit more confused than ever, I’m afraid.
I stopped attending the SDA church several years ago...and have visited some other churches, but all of them have their own issues, too, that are contrary to what I can believe is Biblical..so...I find it all very confounding.
I have always felt, in the Adventist church, that I could never ever measure up to it’s standards and always felt a feeling of despair really...maybe you have felt this too ?
Is that what is wrong with the Adventist church ?

‘Lucy Laodicea’

Ane, based on your comments you seem to think there are rabid SDAs here to jump on you. At the moment, I believe there are only about three active. SDAs are in the minority here!

The problem with trying to reconcile things here is that the ‘gospel’ to our Calvinist friends who run the forum is ‘total sovereignty of God’ which is Calvinism.

SDAs are completely Arminian. I find it strange to say that ‘SDAs don’t know the gospel and need to know it’ when it is not the standards and doctrines that seem to be the problem, it is the very foundation. It is not fair to slam Sabbath keeping, prophetic interpretation, works and EGW when this is simply fruit of Arminianist thinking.

SDAs aren’t not ‘preaching the gospel’ by adhering to a salvation by works philosophy or ‘salvation by sanctification’. They are Arminianists.  Why do they get singled out for ‘false doctrine’ when in denying ‘sovereignty’ they are not preaching ‘true gospel’ Therefore, they are all on the same foundation as all other Arminianists. Why rag on Sabbath keeping and EGW?

If the true gospel is Calvinism, how can any Arminianists be preaching the ‘true gospel’?

I suppose this should be in another thread but I ask Greg and Stan:

How can any Arminianist preach the true gospel?

This site is about Calvanism ?  They are the ones with the T.U.L.I.P. beliefs??  Is that what this site believes to be the true gospel ??

DeeAnna,

This site is about sharing the good news of the gospel with anyone who will listen, Adventist or not. Most of us have experienced teachings within the Adventist church that fundamentally obscure the biblical gospel, teachings which you alluded to in one of your previous posts. The idea of constant “striving” to be good is a weight that you so aptly described, and it still exists for any Adventist who is trying to live up to the words of the most prominent Adventist, Ellen White.

For example, she wrote this in The Great Controversy:

[quote author="Ellen White"]
“All who have ever taken upon themselves the name of Christ must pass its searching scrutiny. Both the living and the dead are to be judged ‘out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.’ Sins that have not been repented of and forsaken will not be pardoned, and blotted out of the books of record, but will stand to witness against the sinner in the day of God ... Day after day, passing into eternity, bears its burden of records for the books of heaven. Words once spoken, deeds once done, can never be recalled. Angels have registered both the good and the evil. The mightiest conqueror upon the earth can not call back the record of even a single day. Our acts, our words, even our most secret motives, all have their weight in deciding our destiny for weal or woe. Though they may be forgotten by us, they will bear their testimony to justify or to condemn” (pg. 552, 1940 edition)

This statement by Mrs. White (among many others), fundamentally undermines the gospel of Jesus Christ. What Ellen White and the early Adventist pioneers created is fundamentally no different than any other religion that places man in a position where he must work his way into heaven. Stop and think about that for a moment. There are only two types of religion: one that is man-centered and one that is God-centered. Most of the world practices a man-centered religion whereby the job of securing salvation is left on our shoulders to achieve. True Christianity is the only religion that says, “Hold on a minute! Salvation is completely the work of God, because if it were left up to us, we would be the weak link and we would lose it!”

What Guibox has uncharitably described is the belief of some regulars here that God is utterly sovereign to save His children. We believe the Bible teaches that salvation is a gift of God and if we do any work to merit it, it is no longer a gift.

That said, we do not point fingers at those who disagree with us in the so-called “Arminian” camp and tell them they cannot be saved unless they agree with everything we believe. Most of the Christian church is Arminian, but this does not mean that Arminianism is correct, it simply means that most people have an easier time believing this teaching.

There are so-called “Calvinists” who believe that no Arminian will be in heaven, but speaking for myself, I cannot endorse such thinking. If God is sovereign, He is sovereign to save both the Calvinist and the Arminian, regardless of our skewed understanding of Him.

What I find troubling is the “head in the sand” approach some Arminians take when dealing with the Scriptures describing God’s sovereign grace. Instead of seeing these texts as the greatest good news possible (because God is able to totally and completely save His children), they turn it into bad news with the cry that God is unfair to save some and not others. But the Bible is full of this teaching..."Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated” (Romans 9:13) being just one example. Jesus chose the twelve disciples, they did not choose him. God chose David as a man after His own heart, David did not choose Him. All of the prophets throughout Scripture were chosen by God to deliver a particular message, they did not choose Him. The list goes on and on, but that’s enough for now.

The great Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon was a strong advocate of so-called “Calvinism”, but he was not uncharitable toward those who held a different view of God, even though he believed they were in error. For example, he had the highest respect for the Arminian preacher John Wesley, after whom the Methodist tradition was born. Spurgeon said something about God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility that rings true to this day, and I will repeat it here:

[quote author="Charles Spurgeon"]
“That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.” (source here)

The bottom line is that all of us (Arminian or Calvinist) have a solemn responsibility to faithfully share the gospel of Jesus Christ with others. Whether we believe that we are ultimately able to overrule God with our choices or whether we believe God is completely sovereign over everything does not change the fact that God has commanded us to preach the good news. Accordingly, the clearest chapter in the Bible on election (Romans 9) is immediately followed by a command to preach the good news (Romans 10). Even if we believe God elects some and not others to salvation, we do not know who those people are and God has told us that He uses the preaching of the gospel as the means by which He reaches them.

For too long, Adventism has obscured this gospel, and alerting people to this is our mission here. Instead of giving people a mish-mash of human tradition mixed with the “insights” of a 19th century woman who believed masturbation would make you insane (among other patently false teachings), we believe that Jesus Christ’s gospel should be be front and center in everything we do. Why saddle people with thousands of pages of extra-biblical material when God has already spoken? “Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.” (Hebrews 1:1-2 ESV). Jesus said “It is finished” and indeed, all that we need to know for our salvation and union with Christ is sealed in the Holy Bible, a book that is overshadowed to this day by “new prophetic revelations” not known by any of the apostles and countless Christians who knew nothing about subjects like dress reform and diet, instead knowing only “Christ and him crucified” (1 Corinthians 2:2). DeAnna, please don’t let the Adventist apologists ever complicate your relationship with God any more than this. If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and you believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will not be disappointed (Romans 10:9-11).

Greg

Thank you, Greg !  NOW, it is clear to me...thank you for taking the time to help me understand.
One line that you included about our sins : 

Though they may be forgotten by us, they will bear their testimony to justify or to condemn” (pg. 552, 1940 edition)

That one always bothered me a LOT.

Salvation is truly simple, isn’t it ?

Thank you so much for taking your time to make this clear to me.

[quote author="DeeAnna Edens"]Thank you’s to Stan, Quibox, Ane, and Greg for taking the time to repond to my questions. I have a lot more understanding now of this “postmodern” business. I think I must have been really out of touch because I have learned some new words: emergent movement and the seeker senstitive movement !! 
The new things in the church are not the way I like to see church. The beginnings of my dissatisfaction was when the “celebration” issue started. The part of church I love the most and what “speaks” to me is the music..and rock and roll does not reflect the character of God or give him honor. ( in my opinion )
I do have a question. I have read other parts of this website and a lot of the comments. I have to say I’m not as intellectually gifted as you all....and so a lot of the heavy stuff is lost on me.....but...is what you all are saying is that you all feel the Adventist church was founded on a mistake...and that the true gospel is salvation through Jesus Christ. ( I believe that, of course)...but what then ?  What do you all do with the Sabbath and other doctrinal issues ?  Are those of no consequence ?  After you all have decided to leave the SDA church...where do you find true gospel churches?  Non-demoninational ???  I think I am a bit more confused than ever, I’m afraid.
I stopped attending the SDA church several years ago...and have visited some other churches, but all of them have their own issues, too, that are contrary to what I can believe is Biblical..so...I find it all very confounding.
I do not see her as a prophet but a messenger who like any human messenger got some of messages mixed up with her own personal opinions or influences of her day. Like some Adventists we assume that what we personally like or believe is what God also likes or believe.... dangerous way to think.

Hi DeeAnna and welcome again to 4TG! I will second what Greg wrote above, this site is about the gospel and for the gospel, and it is not about Calvinism. We know that Calvinism sounds like a dirty word, but please don’t let this discourage you from reading further.

The gospel that Jesus, the apostles, and the major reformers taught is all about what you wrote above:

“I have always felt, in the Adventist church, that I could never ever measure up to it’s standards and always felt a feeling of despair really...maybe you have felt this too ?
Is that what is wrong with the Adventist church ?”
------------------------------------------------------

The true gospel is about receiving the rest that is found in Christ. It is about the free gift of salvation. No longer is it necessary to be burdened by keeping Sabbath and food laws, and a bunch of other foolish restrictions taught by Ellen White.

There is no further need to despair. The gospel is so simple that even a child can receive it. Don’t worry about some of what appears to be technical doctrinal discussions in the beginning. Some of the threads on here do deal with the meat of the Word, but we have threads on here that deal with the Sabbath, and the Law, and hopefully a proper balance between law and gospel.

As Michael Horton said in his book “Putting Amazing Back into Grace” “If you are tired of jumping through hoops to obtain salvation, you will love the Reformation”.

You asked:

“What do you all do with the Sabbath and other doctrinal issues ? Are those of no consequence ? After you all have decided to leave the SDA church...where do you find true gospel churches? Non-demoninational ??? I think I am a bit more confused than ever, I’m afraid.”
------------------------------------------------------

Let not your heart be troubled. There are many good Bible teaching churches out there, but in some areas you will have difficulty depending on where you live. There are even a few churches out there like the PCA (Presbyterian Church in America--but not the PCUSA!) where they have not compromised with rock music like many other churches. Our church uses just a grand piano for accompaniment.

One helpful suggestion would be to read the Bible by starting with the book of John, and then 1 John, then go to Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, and Colossians, and see the depth of the riches that God will communicate to you as the Holy Spirit illuminates His Word.

Again, welcome DeeAnna, and feel free to post whatever concerns you have.

Stan

Guibox,

Well thanks for not passing the rabies on to me : ) I hate shots!

I’m a little confused by some of your comments and cannot really respond because I’m actually very illiterate when it comes to understanding all the religious camps such as Arminian, Calvinist, Dispensationalist etc. I really could not articulate and would seriously flunk a test if confronted with defining and pegging exactly what these camps believe. I have some awareness of them, but not enough to address your questions.

I believe the foundation of Adventism is its unique doctrines provided via a false prophetess, which greatly impact and do huge injustice to the simple plan of salvation. I realize there are Adventists who understand the true Gospel ... but to find that, they had to reinvent a form of Adventism, unlike the traditional historical version. That group is no more SDA than I am.

DeeAnna,

I have some thoughts I want to share in regards to your earlier post today, but do not have time this evening. I’ll get back with you later.

Thank you, Stan.

I think all my questions, for now, are answered..thanks to you all. In the Bible, it says to become as a little child, but..when I became an Adventist when I was in my first year of college ( Madison College ), I thought...."oh, dear...I’ll never be intellectual enough to be a good Adventist...there is too much to learn and remember ! “
I like to think I can simply love Jesus, give my life to Him, and let Him control things”
Adventism just simply overwhelmes me with all the “shoulds” and impossible things that I can never seem to get right.
Thank you all for everything.

The doctrines Christ established His church on, must remain untouched! We cannot compromise them.

But as for church style music preferences, if the focus of the music is on Christ, lets not make this a right or wrong issue when it is simply a preference issue.

DeeAnna,

I would say to you be obedient to whatever God has revealed to you. If you dismiss light, you will not be given more light or clarity till you act on what has been revealed to you. And if God does indeed someday call you out of Adventism ... He will provide a church home as well ... healthly well balanced ones do exist outside of Adventism.

Like Stan pointed out Sabbath is no longer an issue. It was the sign of the Old Covenant that pointed forward to the cross, now in the New Covenant our sign is communion which looks backward to the cross.

While Sabbath is no longer a requirement ... it is still within your religious freedom to observe.

But our brothers and sisters in Christ who worship on Sunday, are not worshipping the Mark of the Beast as we were taught and are also within their religious liberty to gather on this day.

There are just so many Sabbath facts we have to ignore as SDAs to make the Sabbath stance work.

Let me just share some of them to at least get you stimulated to think about this in a new light.

My goal is not to argue about whether or not one should or shouldn’t keep the Sabbath. My goal is to eliminate judgmentalness towards our Brothers and Sisters in Christ who choose to worship on Sunday. And to eliminate the fear of worshipping on Sunday for those ready to transition out of Adventism but who remain there because they do not know where else to go. Here are some Sabbath facts that our Brothers and Sisters who worship on Sunday know but that we were never really taught:

1.  In the creation story the word Sabbath was never used. There is no Sabbath keeping mandate given to man, nor were there any instructions given on how to keep it. The most we can conclude from the creation account is that something significant about the 7th day originated then, but there is no evidence this day was mandated to man yet at this point in history.

2.  God’s 7th Day was only Adam’s 2nd Day of existence.

3.  After creation there is total Sabbath keeping silence for the next 2,000+ years.

4.  Our first Sabbath instructions come in Exodus 16 with the manna command. Both manna and Sabbath are unknown to the Israelites. At this point Sabbath is ONLY a TEST to see if Israel would obey God’s commands.

5.  Nehemiah 9:13-14 teaches the exact point in history that Sabbath was made known. It was at Sinai, not creation and through Moses, not the patriarchs.

6. Deuteronomy 5:3 teaches the Old Covenant wasn’t made with anyone prior to Israel, and then the giving of the 10 Commandments follow this statement. Here we find Sabbath becoming an official command. Later in Hebrews 8 we are told that the entire Old Covenant is obsolete and then in Hebrews 9:1-4 we find the tables of stone are actually listed under the obsolete items of divine worship. The Old Covenant and the tables of stone are the only place we derive our Sabbath command from and now both are obsolete.

7.  If the 4th commandment were still binding then any time you accept services from the strangers within your gates, (utilities, mail, eating out, entertainment, etc.) we are every bit as much in violation of Sabbath breaking as we accuse our Sunday keeping counterparts of being.

8. In Galatians 3:19 we are told that the law was added because of transgressions until the seed would come. So it seems unlikely Sabbath was instituted at creation, because there was no transgression yet.

9. Colossians 2:16 teaches Sabbath was a shadow nailed to the cross and states that Christ is the substance that fulfilled this shadow. What happens to shadows? They disappear.

10. Sabbath was God’s special sign between Him and Israel. So if other nations had been keeping Sabbath since creation, how would Israel’s special sign have made them stand out and look different from other nations?

11. In knowing that Sabbath was a sign between God and Israel, and with Colossians 2 teaching that Sabbath was a shadow pointing to the Christ, we can see how Sabbath was given to Israel to help pinpoint exactly which nation the Messiah would come out of. The Gentiles were not expecting a Messiah to rise up out of their nation. They did not need this shadow.

12.  Galatians 4:9-11, Romans 14:5-6, Hebrews 4, all teach a specific day is no longer to be the focus of our worship.

13.  Christ never taught Sabbath keeping. And to insist that because Christ is our example we should keep Sabbath, would mean that we should also keep all the Holy days then because Jesus kept them all as well.

14.  Why didn’t Christ tell the Rich Young Ruler to keep the Sabbath, when he asked Christ what he must do to be saved? Why would Christ withhold a salvation essential from him?

15. Since the early churches recorded in the New Testament did not have completed Bibles, all they had to go on for salvation instructions was what the Apostles taught them. Why isn’t there any record of any of the Apostles ever giving any of the fledgling churches Sabbath keeping instructions if it was a salvation essential?

16. The Seal of God is the Holy Spirit. So calling Sabbath the Seal of God contradicts Scripture and is actually blasphemous because it speaks out against the Holy Spirit. We avoid the Mark of the Beast by receiving the Holy Spirit, not be the day we keep.

17.  When we give a day the power to save us we are breaking the 1st commandment.

18.  John NEVER once used the term commandments in any of his books to refer to the 10 commandments. So to suddenly interpret the term commandments as used in the book of Revelation as proof that Sunday keepers will receive the Mark of the Beast is an erroneous interpretation of how John consistently used this word.

19. Moral issues remain moral issues everyday of the week 24/7. So if Sabbath is a moral law as Sabbatarians tend to argue, then why aren’t the things we abstain from on Sabbath immoral on the other 6 days?

20.  Hosea 2:11 says God put a stop to Sabbath keeping. How can God stop Sabbath keeping even for a small period of time if it is a moral issue?

21.  Why is Sabbath listed in Leviticus 23 under the ceremonial laws?

22. Why did God often criticize the Gentiles via the prophets for moral violations, but never for the fact that they didn’t keep the Sabbath?

23.  If something is always holy because God made it holy that would mean Sunday should also still be holy. See Leviticus 23, Sunday is listed there as part of the Holy Convocations Israel was required to keep.

24. All significant spiritual events after the crucifixion happened on Sunday, not Saturday.

25. Where does Scripture tell us any certain day or time is wrong to worship on?

26. Why is it okay to listen to a Sunday sermon on Christian radio during the week, but not okay to go to that same service and get fed on Sunday? Why would one act give you the Mark of the Beast and the other not?

Thank you Ane for your reply and information. You’ve given me a lot to study and think about as you all have.

[quote author="Greg"]This statement by Mrs. White (among many others), fundamentally undermines the gospel of Jesus Christ. What Ellen White and the early Adventist pioneers created is fundamentally no different than any other religion that places man in a position where he must work his way into heaven. Stop and think about that for a moment.

Nice pic, BTW.

I don’t think EGW’s statement here (GC, p. 552) is necessarily a “works” view of salvation.  I do think it is a “repentence” view of salvation.

[quote author="EGW"] Our acts, our words, even our most secret motives, all have their weight in deciding our destiny for weal or woe. Though they may be forgotten by us, they will bear their testimony to justify or to condemn”

As rough as this reads, I don’t think there’s anything here that isn’t Biblical. Matthew 12:36-37 reads,

36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Ecclesiastes 12 says:

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

In 1 Corinthians 3 Paul says:

13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.

14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

And in 2 Corinthians 5 Paul says:

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Ane, there is much that can be commented on in your posts. Much of your reasoning is pretty superficial and not anything substantial to warrant throwing out a law of God so conveniently, specifically 17-26

I will say that simply because the Genesis account doesn’t mention ‘Sabbath’ that doesn’t mean that there isn’t a link. First of all the book of Genesis particularily the creation account is not a book of laws but a book or origins so it is highly unlikely that there will be any commands to obey any of the 10 commandments.

You say that transgression didn’t exist, but it did in heaven. If there were no first commandment, what exactly do yo uthink Lucifer did to warrant getting him thrown out of heaven?

Second, the Exodus commandment clearly links the validity and function of the Sabbath to the creation account. The Sabbath is to be observed as it is ‘because in it God created the world in six days and rested the seventh. Therefore honor the Sabbath day’

The validity of the Sabbath commandment finds it’s complete meaning in the creation account.

Your argument in this fashion is weak...It is convenient which is why it is easy for people to throw it away as easily as some have done.

I have commented much on Colossians 2 as well as Romans 14. These two texts are probably the most esiegetically itnerpreted scriptures on this topic. Again, it is convenient to take a superficial glance at what would seem to support Sabbath abrogation but I think the subject deserves better simply because it seems to support what our ears want to hear.