Thanks Glennspring for your comments.

I am quite tired tonight, but I will think about your arguments above and try to answer tomorrow.

Stan

Glennspring,

I tend to agree with your argument on hell. Looking at the big picture, this doctrine has been ridiculed more by non Christians than the Investigative Judgment. But having acknowledged this fact, and since I have come out strongly for annihilation on another thread, I still consider the issue of the nature of hell a peripheral issue. Whatever the nature of hell--and much is speculative--we are uniformly agreed that Hell is a TERRIBLE place, and God’s vengeance will be inflicted on the ungodly:

2 Thessalonians 1:5-9

5This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering-- 6since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8in flaming fire, INFLICTING VENGEANCE on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might”
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I was thinking about Moses responding to God’s intention to wipe Israel out after the incident with the golden calf and Moses asking God to wipe him out instead and spare the people. Uncertain of the exact passage. But a very moving and beautiful statement by Moses.

In Philemon Paul references Onesimus’s debts and says that if Onesimus owes Philemon anything, for Philemon to put or charge the debt to Paul’s account. Paul says he will repay it. In a much larger way, this is what Christ did and does for us. And while I don’t subscribe to the perfectionist school of thought that sees Jesus as our example rather than substitute, I do believe that in beholding we become changed, and that this is God’s hope for us.

There are a few examples like these throughout the Bible, which I think represent the spirit of Christ. But I don’t see much of this attitude in the Christian world--or in myself.

But this attitude, this way of life would seem more worthy of imitation than many of the theological debates we tend to have about who it is that get’s saved and how. 

Glenn,

If you are suggesting that a faith that does not manifest itself in works is suspect, you’re right.  That was exactly the point of James (James 2:14-26) and Jesus (Matthew 25:31-46).  We should not neglect to make our calling and election sure, however, as Stan has pointed out above.  Faith without works is dead, but works without faith is equally dead.

I heard Ravi Zacharias speak on this once and he commented that the hardest question he has ever had to answer was “Why do so many Christians deny Christ by their lifestyles?”

If our Christianity only goes so far as to formulate perfect doctrinal statements while the world around us goes to hell, something is wrong with our Christianity.

Greg

Here is another article by Charles Spurgeon that explains the great truths of the Reformation faith of Calvin and Luther. This is one of Spurgeon’s most famous sermons defending Calvinism against some unjust attacks:

http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

Enjoy!

Stan

[quote author="Stan Ermshar"]Here is another article by Charles Spurgeon that explains the great truths of the Reformation faith of Calvin and Luther. This is one of Spurgeon’s most famous sermons defending Calvinism against some unjust attacks:

http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

Enjoy!

Stan

Interesting article though I do disagree with it. That man is sinful enough that He will not seek God unless He draws man to Himself and reveals Himself to us, I can agree with.

However, to say that God cannot enter into the thoughts and hearts of man to compel him to choose God is to limit Him.

The only way I can accept this aspect of Calvinism is to believe the scripture that says ‘If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto Me’. I cannot accept that God has created man to be condemned or saved already. To do so is to make God’s actions more unfair, cruel and redundant than if He merely wiped mankind out and created Him anew.

I find it hard to believe that God would allow man the freedom of choice to fall into sin, thus causing Him to set a plan in motion to appease Himself simply to enact something (salvation) that was already determined beforehand as far as man is concerned. This is especially abhorrent if because of Adam man was condemned and some men do not have the choice in the matter and CANNOT be saved.

It just doesn’t make any sense.

Either one must believe in universalism or come to the conclusion that even though it is God who saves ultimately, man must have the choice to put their trust in the second Adam just as they can choose to walk under the curse of the first Adam.