I will second what guibox said that the purpose of this forum is to share the good news of Jesus Christ with anyone who will listen, including current and former Adventists.

Let’s keep in mind that we aren’t saved by the depth of our theological understanding, but by a God who--despite our flawed words and understanding--saves us “while we were yet sinners”.  He saves us from our sin and hopefully also from our ignorance.

The Trinity doctrine is tremendously important to the Christian faith and a major point of being a Christian is to help others see Christ more clearly and be faithful followers of him.  It is with this spirit that I hope we can graciously discuss these important issues.

“...but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect...” (1 Peter 3:15)

Greg

Posted anonymously by: SavedForever

Guibox, it seems you misunderstood what I said--I was not talking about Jesus’ human body, I was talking about the SDA teaching that God the Father has (and always has had) a body. That the SDA church teaches that is a documented fact, as is the SDA denial of Jesus’ omnipresence, and their denial that God is a single Being (which you yourself denied in this thread). Any of these things can be learned by reading official SDA literature (both current and EGW).

[Just to give some documentation (I could give much more than this, but here are a couple links for each point): denial of the omnipresence of Jesus, here and here; denial of God’s incorporeality, here and here; denial that God is one Being, here and here.]

I will leave the discussion at that, and will not argue any of this further.

I will note that it seems it is fine to accuse and “attack” Mormons and JWs on this board, but pointing out the truth about Adventism does not seem to be acceptable--for one reason or another.

I am wondering about Stan’s earlier statement on this thread: “All points of view are welcome on this web site.”

SavedForever

SavedForever, your point of view and research are welcome here.  Please share it, but can you do it in a way that shows gentleness and respect?  I would do the same for a Mormon, Jehovah’s Witness, Christian Scientist or whoever else comes here.

There’s no motivation to silence opposing viewpoints here, unlike on other sites.  All I ask is that you heed the inspired words of the Apostle Peter posted above.

Greg

SavedForever,

What is wrong with the simple language of the hymn “Holy Holy Holy” which is where you had a problem with my statement “God in three persons, blessed Trinity”, or the statement prior: “All who believe that there is one God who exists in three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit believe in the doctrine of the Trinity.”

Please tell me, what is wrong with articulating this doctrine as one God in three persons? I don’t believe in three gods and I don’t think most SDAs that I know, including my own mother believe that either. Mormonism is clearly polytheistic, and they don’t believe in the Trinity. I will rely on the authority of my late friend Dr. Walter Martin who knew Mormons much better than you or I, and at least tried to understand Adventists by interacting with them for over thirty years, including preaching in an SDA church and praying with my dad and I, that it would seem ridiculous that Walter Martin didn’t get the difference between the SDA view of the Trinity and Mormonism’s view. The same would go for his close associate Ken Samples who also researched Adventism and even wrote the forward to Dale Ratzlaff’s book “Cultic Doctrine” where even Dale agreed that SDAs were orthodox on the Trinity, but even Dale Ratzlaff’s views were not very well respected when I was posting on FAF. I even got an email from Dale saying that he stands by his book.

So, I think we have to be very careful before we characterize certain views as damning heresy.

But with all that said, SavedForever, I stand by my statement that your views are welcome and your posts will never be deleted. You made a lot of valid points in your posts above, and we need to hear a clear analysis on these issues, which I appreciate, but sometimes it is the spirit in which we dialogue, with an accusatory tone, that we need to be careful with (I struggle with this issue all the time).

Stan

Posted anonymously by: SavedForever

Stan, of course I don’t have a problem with the hymn “Holy, Holy, Holy.” There is nothing wrong with articulating the doctrine as one God in three persons.

The problem is when groups (such as SDA, LDS, and others) claim to believe such or use the right words--but have different definitions and meanings. And it could not be clearer that Mormonism and Adventism have very different meanings for “one God” than Christianity does.

SDA statement: “The Godhead consists of three divine Beings, unified in action but distinct in personality.”

LDS statement: “Although the members of the Godhead are distinct beings with distinct roles, they are one in purpose and doctrine.”

If someone can show me a difference between these two statements, by all means do so!

And now I’ll retreat from this thread (again)--

SavedForever

Hey don’t go away yet SavedForever! That SDA statement above is not what the fundamental beliefs statement is. That link is from a Sabbath School quarterly. I am not trying to defend a lot of sloppy terminology on the part of SDAs but there are clear differences between Mormonism and SDA:

Here is the official SDA statement from the 28 fundamentals:

2. Trinity:
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)

So what is so heretical with that statement as it stands?

Now check out this Mormon link from Sandra Tanner who is considered to be the most reputable authority on Mormonism, who is now a Christian and runs a ministry to Mormons:

http://www.utlm.org/faqs/faqgeneral.htm#4

Here is a quote from this:

4. Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints just another Protestant religion?

“No, the Mormon Church does not claim to be Protestant. It claims to be a divine restoration of Christ’s true church. It therefore rejects the validity of any other church. Its basic beliefs place it outside the standard doctrines of Christianity. Mormonism teaches that the God to whom they pray is but one of a whole series of gods who at one time were mortal then progressed to godhood. The LDS Church teaches that their Heavenly Father was once born as a spirit child of a god and wife who ruled a different world. After maturing as a spirit being he was sent to another world where he was born as a human. There he grew to maturity, married, died, was resurrected, went to heaven, progressed and eventually became the God of our world. He and his resurrected wife continue to have spirit children born to them in their heavenly realm. The Mormon man, accompanied by his wife, who is faithful to his religion, pays his tithe, attends the LDS temple rituals, etc. is hoping to eventually progress to become a god of another world, just like his Heavenly Father did.”
----------------------------------------------------------

So, SavedForever, if you go by the official statement from SDAs from their fundamental beliefs, I don’t see how they can be heretical on the Trinity. I agree that Ellen White and many theologians in Adventism make troubling statements. You will not find Greg or I endorsing the SDA church as just another evangelical church who is clear on the gospel, or we would not be here. We believe the gospel is perverted in Adventism as Paul told the Galatians in Galatians 1 and that is why we are here to try by God’s grace to set forth the gospel Jesus and the Apostles preached, to the best of our ability. After experiencing both the Adventist system, and now set free in the truths of the Reformation gospel, there is no comparison. The gospel of grace should never be perverted.

I also agree that we should be as precise as the Bible is in our theological understanding. However, I know too many people who can’t quite articulate the doctrine of the Trinity as accurately as some can, but it is clear by their lives that they really know Jesus as fully God as their Lord and Saviour.

As a recent program on the http://www.whitehorseinn.org radio program said, there is no doubt that Roman Catholicism is a false church, but there are true believers in that false system, mainly because the official doctrine does affirm the trinity and the deity of Christ. Kim Riddlebarger also admitted much the same about the SDA church which they lease from on Sunday. This is why I believe RCC and SDA--both who pervert the gospel of grace--are much different from Mormons and JWs.

Stan

Here’s the SDA Fundamental Belief statement on the Trinity found here:

There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)

Here is an excerpt from “SDA Believe...” found here:

Dynamics Within the Godhead
Is there only one God? What of Christ, and the Holy Spirit?

The Oneness of God. In contrast to the heathen of surrounding nations, Israel believed there was only one God (Deut. 4:35; 6:4; Isa. 45:5; Zech. 14:9). The New Testament makes the same emphasis on the unity of God (Mark 12:29-32; John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:4-6; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Tim. 2:5). This monotheistic emphasis does not contradict the Christian concept of the triune God or Trinity–Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; rather, it affirms that there is no pantheon of various deities.

The Plurality Within the Godhead. Although the Old Testament does not explicitly teach that God is triune, it alludes to a plurality within the Godhead. At times God employs plural pronouns such as: “‘Let Us make man in Our image’” (Gen. 1:26); “‘Behold the man has become like one of Us’” (Gen. 3:22); “‘Come, let Us go down’” (Gen. 11:7). At times the Angel of the Lord is identified with God. Appearing to Moses, the Angel of the Lord said, “‘I am the God of your father–the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’” (Ex. 3:6).

Various references distinguish the Spirit of God from God. In the Creation story “the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters” (Gen. 1:2). Some texts not only refer to the Spirit but include a third person in God’s work of redemption: “‘And now the Lord God [the Father] and His Spirit [the Holy Spirit] have sent Me [the Son of God]’” (Isa. 48:16); “‘I [the Father] have put My Spirit upon Him [the Messiah]; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles’” (Isa. 42:1).

...

The only true God is the God of the cross. Christ unveiled to the universe the Godhead’s infinite love and saving power; He revealed a triune God who was willing to go through the agony of separation because of unconditional love for a rebel planet. From this cross God proclaims His loving invitation to us: Be reconciled, “and the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus” (Phil. 4:7, NIV).

I don’t have time to discuss these quotes in detail because I am travelling, but perhaps we can examine these statements in light of SavedForever’s comments.

Greg

Posted anonymously by: SavedForever

I probably won’t really be joining in the discussion, but since you posted from the official SDA belief book, Greg, I’ll post the following that I’ve already written, which gives more quotes from that book and some comments of mine.

(The quotes are identical to what is found in the current version, although the links are to the old version--there is not much difference between the two versions, though.)

First, we’ll look at some excerpts from chapter 2, “The Godhead” (note that the chapter title does not have the word “Trinity” as in their statement of Fundamental Beliefs):

“Dynamics Within the Godhead

“Is there only one God? What of Christ, and the Holy Spirit?

“The Oneness of God. In contrast to the heathen of surrounding nations, Israel believed there was only one God (Deut. 4:35; 6:4; Isa. 45:5; Zech. 14:9). The New Testament makes the same emphasis on the unity of God (Mark 12:29-32; John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:4-6; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Tim. 2:5). This monotheistic emphasis does not contradict the Christian concept of the triune God or Trinity–Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; rather, it affirms that there is no pantheon of various deities.” (http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-02.htm)

Even this quotation which talks about the “oneness” of God sounds questionable. Also notice that there is no affirmation that God is one Being.

“The Relationship Within the Godhead. The first advent of Christ gives us a much clearer insight into the triune God. John’s Gospel reveals that the Godhead consists of God the Father (see chapter 3 of this book), God the Son (chapter 4), and God the Holy Spirit (chapter 5)–a unity of three co-eternal persons having a unique and mysterious relationship.” (http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-02.htm)

Notice that they do not say that these three persons are one being, but it sounds as if they are using the word “persons” to mean separate “beings,” who have a “unique and mysterious relationship.”

”Sinners will never comprehend what Jesus’ death meant to the Godhead. From eternity He had been with His Father and the Spirit. They had lived as coeternal, coexistent in utter self-giving and love for one another.” (http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-02.htm)

So, in other words, when Jesus died, the three divine beings were no longer coexistent. There were only two beings left in the Godhead, since, according to their teaching, Jesus ceased to exist (which is made clear later when they say: “Christ became man to die for the race. He valued selflessness more than self-existence."). (Notice also that this means that Jesus Christ cannot be eternal, if He ceased to exist at some point.)

“To be together for so long bespeaks the perfect, absolute love that existed within the Godhead. ‘God is love’ (1 John 4:8) means that each so lived for the others that they experienced complete fulfillment and happiness.” (http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-02.htm)

So if they had happened to quit loving each other, the three gods could have “disbanded"--even before Christ’s death. That is not describing one being--that is a “god-group/office/family"--or “trio” as their prophet Ellen G. White calls it.

“There is no distance between the persons of the triune God. All three are divine, yet they share their divine powers and qualities. In human organizations final authority rests in one person–a president, king, or prime minister. In the Godhead, final authority resides in all three members.” (http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-02.htm)

Apparently, God’s Word is wrong when it says that there is just one King who rules the universe. Also, notice that the Godhead is not defined as a living Being, but as an organization. The whole quote is tritheism, plain and simple.

“While the Godhead is not one in person, God is one in purpose, mind, and character.” (http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-02.htm)

That is basically the definition of Tritheism right there. Notice that the “oneness” of God is about being “one in purpose, mind, and character"--not one in being.

“This oneness does not obliterate the distinct personalities of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Nor does the separateness of personalities within the Deity destroy the monotheistic thrust of Scripture that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God.” (Italics in orginal.) (http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-02.htm)

So these separate personalities/beings together make up ”one God” (their interesting use of italics, not mine), but supposedly this “separateness” does not destroy the “monotheistic thrust” of Scripture. Nice.

And here are a couple of final excerpts from chapter 2:

“2. A working relationship. Within the Godhead an economy of function exists. God does not unnecessarily duplicate work. Order is the first law of heaven, and God works in orderly ways. This orderliness issues from and preserves the union within the Godhead. The Father seems to act as source, the Son as mediator, and the Spirit as actualizer or applier.

[...] “The apostolic benediction includes all three persons of the Godhead. ‘The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all’ (2 Cor.13:14). Christ heads the list. God’s point of contact with humanity was and is through Jesus Christ–the God who became man. Though all three members of the Trinity work together to save, only Jesus lived as a man, died as a man, and became our Saviour (John 6:47; Matt. 1:21; Acts 4:12). But because ‘God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself’ (2 Cor. 5:19), God could also be designated as our Saviour (cf. Titus 3:4), for He saved us through Christ the Saviour (Eph. 5:23; Phil. 3:20; cf. Titus 3:6).” (http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-02.htm)

In chapter 4 of the same book ("God the Son"), they quote a book entitled Problems in Bible Translation which was published by SDA church-owned Review and Herald Publishing Association in 1954:

“Jesus Christ, the pre-existent God, the divine creative Word, at His incarnation became in a unique sense the Son of God–which is why He is designated ‘mongenes,’ the only one of His kind, altogether unique in many aspects of His being and life. No other child of the human race was so compacted in his being, had so unequaled a relation to the Godhead, or did such a work as is true of Him. So ‘monogenes’ describes a relation between God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son as separate Persons of the Godhead. This is a relation that belongs to Christ’s complex, divine-human personality, in connection with the economy of the plan of salvation.” (http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-04.htm)

And in chapter 23 ("Marriage and the Family"), they say the following:

“This term [man] includes both male and female. The text makes clear that it was not a case of the male being created in the image of God and the female in the image of the man.1 On the contrary, both were made in the image of God.

“Just as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are God, male and female together are to make up ‘man.’ And like the Godhead, though they are to be one, they are not the same in function. They are equal in being, in worth, but not identical in person (cf. John 10:30; 1 Cor. 11:3). Their physiques are complementary, their functions cooperative.” (http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-22.htm)

SavedForever, thanks for posting your thoughts.  I am having a little trouble finding your comments interspersed with what you are quoting, but I think I can get the gist of what you are saying.

You appear to take specific issue with the fact that nowhere is the key phrase “one Being” used, but I just don’t see how this can be the smoking gun evidence that proves Adventists are tritheists.

So when Adventists say in their Fundamental Belief statement: “There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons” you won’t give them credit as being monotheists because they didn’t say “There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, one Being made up of three co-eternal Persons”?  Don’t let me mischaracterize what you are saying, but this does sound like hair-splitting semantics to me.

Just by way of comparison, here are several doctrinal statements on the Trinity from other denominations.

Evangelical Free Church of America: “In one God, Creator of all things, infinitely perfect and eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.”

United Methodist Church: “There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body or parts, of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things, both visible and invisible. And in unity of this Godhead there are three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity–the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.”

Presbyterian Church in America: “We believe in the Holy Trinity. There is one God, who exists eternally in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”

Southern Baptist Convention: “There is one and only one living and true God. He is an intelligent, spiritual, and personal Being, the Creator, Redeemer, Preserver, and Ruler of the universe. God is infinite in holiness and all other perfections. God is all powerful and all knowing; and His perfect knowledge extends to all things, past, present, and future, including the future decisions of His free creatures. To Him we owe the highest love, reverence, and obedience. The eternal triune God reveals Himself to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence, or being.”

Evangelical Lutheran Church in America: “This church confesses the Triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.”

Christian and Missionary Alliance: “There is one God, who is infinitely perfect, existing eternally in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.”

Calvary Chapel: “We believe that God is eternally existent in three distinct persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.”

Sovereign Grace Ministries (charismatic): “There is one God: infinite, eternal, almighty, and perfect in holiness, truth, and love. In the unity of the godhead there are three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, co-existent, co-equal, co-eternal. The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Holy Spirit, yet each is truly Deity. One God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - is the foundation of Christian faith and life.”

United Churches of Christ: “We believe in God, the Eternal Spirit, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ and our Father...” (no explicit statement on the Trinity)

Assembly of God: “Accordingly, therefore, there is that in the Father which constitutes him the Father and not the Son; there is that in the Son which constitutes Him the Son and not the Father; and there is that in the Holy Spirit which constitutes Him the Holy Spirit and not either the Father or the Son. Wherefore the Father is the Begetter, the Son is the Begotten, and the Holy Spirit is the one proceeding from the Father and the Son. Therefore, because these three persons in the Godhead are in a state of unity, there is but one Lord God Almighty and His name one.”

SavedForever, from this brief survey of Protestant Christian denominations, by the tight definition you set above, only the United Methodists and the Southern Baptists would be classified as trinitarian and presumably the rest would be considered borderline polytheists.  Interestingly, the churches of several prominent former Adventists would not be counted among the orthodox.

Also, as I said before, you are in no way discouraged from posting your comments here, so thanks again for contributing your observations.

Greg

Posted anonymously by: SavedForever

Greg,

Yes, you are most certainly mis-characterizing what I am saying.

Where did I ever say anything close to the things you are saying I’m saying???

I never said that a church’s statement has to use the phrase “one Being.” I was discussing the SDA belief book’s expanded description of God’s “oneness,” etc.--plus I made many other points.

The SDA fundamental belief statement is orthodox-sounding, and many Evangelicals would think it sounds fine (at first glance at least). It is their statement for the public, after all. But what I am saying is that their definitions (such as for “one God” for instance) are not the same as Christianity’s definitions. When we look further and deeper, at what they actually teach and what they actually mean, we see that they definitely teach Tritheism in their official belief book, and throughout their other literature they explicitly state their belief in three divine beings. I have even quoted and linked to such sources in this thread.

Again, this has absolutely nothing to do with semantics, but instead has everything to do with Adventism’s foundational doctrines from the beginning that God the Father has a body and is a distinct Being from Jesus Christ. They have never changed these teachings, and continue to explicitly teach them to this day.

SavedForever

SavedForever, sorry for the mis-characterization.  I was basing my comments from what you said, which I will quote:

“Even this quotation which talks about the ‘oneness’ of God sounds questionable. Also notice that there is no affirmation that God is one Being.”

“Notice that they do not say that these three persons are one being, but it sounds as if they are using the word ‘persons’ to mean separate ‘beings,’ who have a ‘unique and mysterious relationship.’”

By these two statements, the other churches above would still have trouble meeting your requirements for orthodoxy.

I’m not certain that the argument about words not meaning what they really say is the best approach.  Again, this goes back to presuming to know the heart of the person who is making the statement, as if you have an understanding of what they really mean even though the plain meaning of the words is different.  For instance, how could you differentiate between all of the statements of belief I posted above?  Which of them were made with the “right meanings” and which weren’t?  What’s more, why not let God be the judge of the heart or motivations and allow other’s words to be taken at face value?

It is interesting that even Dale Ratzlaff agrees that Adventists are orthodox on the Trinity.  As far as I know, none of the recognized cult watchers including Walter Martin, Anthony Hoekema, Herbert Bird, Louis Talbot, Gordon Lewis or Harold Linsell ever made this claim either.

Greg

Just to add to the above discussion, here are what the critics of Adventism say about the Adventist understanding of the Trinity:

[quote author="Dale Ratzlaff"]
Adventists believe in the Trinity and therefore do not meet this common cult characteristic. -Cultic Doctrine of SDAs, p. 298

[quote author="Anthony Hoekema"]
On the doctrine of the being of God Seventh-day Adventists do not differ from historic Christianity.  We are thankful that in this respect they are not at all in the same category as Mormons, Christian Scientists, or Jehovah’s Witnesses, all of whom deny the doctrine of the Trinity.  Seventh-day Adventists clearly affirm the Trinity, as Article 2 of their Fundamental Beliefs reveals…

It will be noted from this statement that the personality and infinity of God the Father is clearly attested, as well as the personality and full deity of the Holy Spirit.  The deity of Jesus Christ, though implied in Article 2, is plainly asserted in Article 3: “That Jesus Christ is very God, being of the same nature and essence as the Eternal Father.” -The Four Major Cults, pp. 108-109

[quote author="Anthony Hoekema"]
At this point we must first acknowledge with gratitude that Seventh-day Adventists do not, like Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Christian Scientists, deny the full deity of Jesus Christ or the doctrine of the Trinity.  Though some earlier Adventist writers had contended that the Son was not wholly equal to the Father, Seventh-day Adventists today affirm Christ’s complete equality with the Father, and the pre-existence of the Son from eternity.  Adventists also accept the doctrine of the Trinity, and that of the personality and full deity of the Holy Spirit. -The Four Major Cults, p. 394

[quote author="Josh McDowell and John Stewart"]
It is true that [Adventists] hold to a sound doctrine of the Trinity, the deity of Jesus Christ, and the Person and deity of the Holy Spirit. -The Deceivers, p. 298

[quote author="Walter Martin"]
Quoting Questions on Doctrine: “The Godhead or Trinity, consists of the Eternal Father, a personal spiritual Being, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, infinite in wisdom and love; the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Eternal Father, through whom all things were created and through whom the salvation of the redeemed hosts will be acccomplished; the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Godhead, the great regenerating power in the work of redemption (Matt. 28:19.” -The Truth About Seventh-day Adventism, pp. 48-49

[quote author="John H. Gerstner"]
God is tri-personal and His essential atttribute is love.  “It is the supreme relation between Himself and all created life–yes, the supreme relation between the Persons of the ever-blessed Trinity” (A.S. Maxwell, Your Friends the Adventists, p. 18). -The Teachings of Seventh-day Adventism

[quote author="Gordon R. Lewis"]
On the deity of Christ and the fact of His incarnation Seventh-day Adventists stand squarely with evangelical Christians.  The Biblical doctrines are made explicit objects of faith for salvation in Scripture, the Adventists assert.  By the Scriptural test adopted in this study, then, Adventists in their view of Christ’s Person are evangelical. -Confronting the Cults, p. 109

[quote author="Donald Grey Barnhouse"]
Jesus Christ is the eternal Word of God, second member of the Godhead, eternally existing with God as God, and they repudiate absolutely any concept that Jesus was a created being. While many of their Bible teachers have shown that “the angel of Jehovah” in the Old Testament is none other than Jesus Christ, this position is one that I myself have taken and taught in my book, The Invisible War. The word “angel” means “messenger” and Christ’s action as a “messenger” did not and does not make Him a creature or less than Cod. This declaration on the part of the Adventist leaders specifically removes them from classification with Jehovah’s Witnesses who are Arians in the modern sense, and the Adventists totally repudiate the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ concept of Christ. The Adventists take their place in the very center of traditional Christianity’s Trinitarian doctrine as accepting the Christology of the New Testament of the Fathers, the Reformers, and all true evangelicals. -Are Seventh-day Adventist Christians? A New Look at Seventh-day Adventism, Eternity Magazine, Sept. 1956

[quote author="MacGregor Ministries"]
While the Seventh day Adventist Church today espouses the doctrine of the Trinity, this has not always been so. -Online here.

These quotes speak for themselves, but as a reminder, the individuals who stand behind them (with exception of the last reference) are acknowledged as careful theologians and several of them have been highly critical of Adventists on other doctrines, even labeling them a cult in some cases.  Without more evidence than what SavedForever has presented and what has been carefully reviewed by these authors, it is stretching the bounds of credibility to label Adventists as polytheists.  There are several Adventist doctrines which rightfully deserve criticism, but this is not one of them.

Greg

Wow Greg!

I don’t see how there can be any controversy over what SDAs believe about the Trinity, and the fact they believe in the real Jesus. I believe it is possible to go through Sabbath School quarterlies and other SDA writings and find inconsistencies and bad terminology as Saved Forever has correctly pointed out. However like Roman Catholicism, Adventism is teaching an obscured and distorted gospel, which deserves to be criticized.

I think you said last night that Gordon R. Lewis in his book “Confronting the Cults” put Adventism and Catholicism in the same category as Galatianizers, and in need of evangelism, but clearly in a different category than Mormons and JWs, who are clearly worshipping a different Jesus and a different God.

I think many evangelicals have been guilty in the past of overstating the case against Adventism, and by doing that lose credibility.

Both Don Barnhouse and Anthony Hoekema also examined the scapegoat doctrine, and while it is certainly bad theology, it doesn’t rise to the level of “Satan Worship”, which some have alleged.

However, I still remember my days growing up in Adventism, and how there was never any joy in that legalistic system, and then to discover the joy of knowing the pure gospel which Jesus, Paul, and the apostles taught, and then recovered by Luther and Calvin in the Reformation, and really believe Romans 8:1 “There is NOW no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.” And as our PCA pastor Ron Gleason said it, there is no way in the Greek construction of that text to have it teach anything else, than that once we are truly born again, we will NEVER come into comdemnation again! Praise God!

When the books of Romans and Galatians are thoroughly studied without the Ellen White lenses, then we can truly discover the JOY of our salvation.

Stan

Stan, yes I think it is important to emphasize that most of those quotes I posted above come from very credible theologians who have put Adventist doctrine under the microscope.  That none of them concluded Adventists were unorthodox on the Trinity is very significant and it places the burden of proof on those few, mostly anonymous individuals on the Internet who believe they’ve found a new smoking gun.  The zeal of these individuals to draw conclusions not previously voiced by anyone with theological credibility raises more questions about the critical methods being employed than it does about Adventists.

Here’s yet one more voice to add to the discussion:

[quote author="Kenneth Samples"]
With respect to the charge that Traditional Adventism is a non-Christian cult, it must be emphasized that the structure of Adventism is largely orthodox (accepting the Trinity, Christ’s deity, virgin birth, bodily resurrection, etc.). -Christian Research Institute Journal, 1988, Volume 11, Number 1, page 9.

Greg

Greg,

You make excellent points about the credibility and the scholarship of people like Ken Samples, Anthony Hoekema, Walter Martin, and so many others who have scrutinized Adventist beliefs on the Trinity. I have yet to read any author who is trained in the study of the cults, even those who are not friendly to Adventism ever say that the SDA official fundamental statement on the Trinity is not orthodox. As you said, those making these claims are sometimes anonymous and others who make these claims have no formal training in the cults. Even former SDAs such as Dale Ratzlaff and Rolaant MacKenzie agree that SDAs do have an orthodox Trinity statement.

But with the above stated, just because the Roman Catholic Church is orthodox on the Trinity does not mean that they are a true church. As stated before both RCC and SDA pervert the gospel, or at least obscure the gospel, and this is where the danger lies. But thankfully because of orthodoxy with regard to Christ and the Trinity, there are still many true Christians in these groups, but many more of them need to be evangelized and hear the true gospel that really makes them free in Christ.

Stan