As a postscript to this thread, some former Adventists have leveled the claim against the late Walter Martin that he was somehow deceived or naive when it came to his assessment of Adventism, ignoring his qualifications and scholarship in favor of their own research, many times impugning his character in the process.  I might add that these individuals, who probably mean well, are not usually trained in cult apologetics or even theology and furthermore, their identities are anonymous and their work is not subjected to critical review.  What’s more, many of these conclusions are posted on internet forums where other viewpoints are not welcome or are even silenced.

Recently I had the opportunity to listen to a recording of Martin’s last “Bible Answer Man” radio show with Desmond Ford, recorded in the year of Martin’s death in 1989.  Responding to a caller who brought up questions about Martin’s qualifications which were leveled by the lay apologist Lorri MacGregor, Martin said this:

Martin: “...I’m not out of my field, I’m a full professor of Biblical Studies and Lorri hasn’t had any training at all.  I therefore think that having taught in universities and colleges and seminaries all over the world, and having taught for 38 years as a college and university and seminary professor–and I am certified to teach in five fields–I do think that I have a little more expertise on this subject than Lorri does.

Caller: “She claims that Seventh-day Adventism is a cult.  Why does she think that?”

Martin: “Well, because along with Bill Settenaur (sp?) and others, who were involved in cults, they see certain things within the structure of the denomination that are cultic and I never denied that.  There is cultism within the structure of Christianity itself and we can’t deny this.  For instance, the faith teachers are very definitely cultic in some of the things which they’re talking about, such as the doctrine of the born-again Jesus and that man, if he’s a Christian, is actually a ‘little god’.  That’s cultic material.  But that doesn’t mean the people who are saying it are cultists.  It means that their theology is whacko, but they are Christians.”

Undoubtedly these statements from Martin will unsettle many who want to paint the Adventist church (and Martin) in black and white.  But in so doing, they refuse to look themselves in the mirror and put their own qualifications on the line in the same way they judge others.  They make themselves the keepers of “who’s in” and “who’s out”, ironically replicating the same cultic structure from which they claim to have been freed.

Greg

[quote author="Walter Martin"]For instance, the faith teachers are very definitely cultic in some of the things which they’re talking about, such as the doctrine of the born-again Jesus and that man, if he’s a Christian, is actually a ‘little god’. That’s cultic material.

Is this a reference to Word of Faith preaching?

There is a lot of this on TBN, a Christian cable tv station I receive (and which also carries the SDA program It Is Written and more mainstream Christian teachers like Charles Stanley). 

Glenn, I believe so, but I’m sure Stan can flesh this out a little more.  He is also a great fan of TBN

Greg

I wouldn’t call myself a fan of TBN. Or was that your point with the smiley icon? 

From Greg

They make themselves the keepers of “who’s in” and “who’s out”, ironically replicating the same cultic structure from which they claim to have been freed.

Yes, this is what I’ve always said. In looking at forums like formeradventist.com , I find it ironic that their attitude and methodology mimics that of the uber-conservative forum in terms of ‘whos in and who’s out’, claiming to have a monopoly of the truth while labeling and ridiculing the opinions and doctrinal viewpoints of others.

In claiming praise and happiness on being ‘freed from a cult’ and insisting on wallowing in the negativity they claimed they have been freed from, they have nicely established their own cultic mentality.

Man, this forum is so refreshing compared to all that nonsense.

And it is good to have you here Guibox.

Greg,

I also have to say that it was painful reading FAF when Walter Martin’s name came up in discussion. To see him cast aside as having no credibility, or statements like “Walter Martin was fooled”, or “he couldn’t really understand Adventism because he never was one” just don’t wash. As I have said previously, I had the privilege of sitting in his bible class for five years, and knowing him as a personal friend, and occasional patient as well; I am here to say that no one fooled Walter Martin. Believe me, I even protested to him and brought him material to evaluate, and Desmond Ford spoke to him all the time. But what the former SDA critics of Martin don’t realize, is that he also was an authority on Mormonism and JWs, and last I checked, none of the critics have really studied these true cults.

On that MP3 you referred to Greg, when Martin mentioned Lorri MacGregor’s ministry, it is true that one of her partners, or even herself(not sure) was a JW, and so they are ascribing the characteristics of JW to Adventism. You see that Walter was wise to this as well. Countless times on the web site we were banished from, Lorri’s ministry would be hailed as the authority on everything from women in ministry to SDA being a cult, and she and her cohorts were considered to be experts. But MacGregor never had the kind of training that Martin, Ken Samples, or Craig Hawkins has in this field. Martin would acknowledge all the time the concerns I had at the time, and he would even be sympathetic to former SDAs who do believe SDA is a cult. He did understand, even along with Des Ford that Adventism was dangerously close to being labelled a cult.

As far as the rumor perpetrated by Dr. Robert Morey, that Martin was going to change his mind before his death about SDA, apparently another close friend of Martin’s, Ken Samples, could not verify this at all. We only have Morey’s word and that is all.

However, the cult label is counterproductive anyway. But, nonetheless, I honestly believe that both RCC and SDA are in the same category, in that the Galatian heresy is prominent. As one who was brought up in cultic Adventism--my dad admits this--we are very happy to be freed from a system that kept us tied up in spiritual bondage. Romans 8:1 is indeed absolutely true--"There is NOW no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.”

Stan

[quote author="Stan"]As one who was brought up in cultic Adventism--my dad admits this--we are very happy to be freed from a system that kept us tied up in spiritual bondage. Romans 8:1 is indeed absolutely true--"There is NOW no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.”

Stan, I’d be very interested in hearing this story, your families or yours, either in an open post like this or if you wanted to email me directly.

Thanks for asking Glenn. I wrote an article in Proclamation! magazine in the summer 2005 edition, that is now available online, but I will have to find the weblink to the article, and if I find it, I will post it publically.

To briefly summarize:

I was brought up in the very strictest form of historic Adventism, with both my folks united behind the teachings of Ellen White. We would memorize Ellen verses and be asked to repeat them for family worship “When the Sabbath Commences..” “The greatest want of the world..” etc etc.

However, both my parents genuinely knew the Lord, and were very nurturing. But my dad was very strict, and Ellen would always have the last word. We were told we were going to hell if we played chess or checkers, because Ellen said that “Heaven forbids chess..”

When in college and medical school at Loma Linda, I became a practical atheist, but knew in my heart that God exists. I gave up on God, and became very successful in my medical career, and I thought I had everything life could offer. We took a cruise to Mexico in December of ‘82, and were living it up enjoying the nightlife, but, mysteriously one night I was drawn irresistably to a Gideon Bible in a drawer. I started in Matthew and read a little each night, and when I got to Matthew’s description of the passion, I became convicted of my need of Christ, and realized Christ died specifically for me, and took the penalty I would have suffered, if not for his sovereign grace. That night I was truly born again.

When I got home, I studied everything about the gospel and Adventism I could get a hold of. Desmond Ford’s magazine “mysteriously” showed up in my mailbox. I had heard Ron Numbers presentation and read his book in 1976, and I heard Walter Rea’s presentation in 1980, so I had some background, but I had used Walter Rea and Ron Numbers as an excuse to give up on Christianity all together. I studied 1844, and came to realize that Adventism was built on a false foundation. Because, how could SDA claim to be the remnant church based on a vision of EGW that clearly contradicted the very clear words of scripture in Hebrews 9:12? I could not be true to my sensitive conscience and stay in the SDA church.

When I broke the news to my parents, it was very difficult, but my folks did listen politely to a tape of Desmond Ford speaking to a San Diego forum group. I was in communication with my older sister for a year, and she studied her way out of SDA, and then my father was really on my case. He told me I was leading his family astray. But he saw my zeal for the gospel, and he couldn’t resist at least investigating what I was saying. It took him two years to give up 1844, and then Ellen White. But he was still adamant about the Sabbath, and wrote us all a ten page letter severely reprimanding us for not keeping the Sabbath. I answered back with a long series of communications. After another five years of study, or after ten years total, he came to me one day, and said “son, I was wrong about Adventism. You are absolutely right.” Then he attended a San Diego forum with me in 1994, where I participated on a panel discussion explaining why I left the SDA church, and my dad was a proud member of the audience. He even stood up publically, and said that ‘the SDA system was a big rip-off!

Since that day in 1994, there were long journeys for both dad and I, as I wandered back into my worldly ways pursuing other business and investment interests. My dad had a long battle with bitterness and anger--He could not believe he was deceived as deeply as he was. He definitely believes to this day that SDA is a cult just like Mormonism and JW, and he has a difficult time seeing me soften my position recently. My mother is still SDA, but she has long since given up the idea that you have to be SDA to be saved. She is one of the finest Christians I know of. My dad still makes life difficult for her sometimes, by still dwelling on the dark side of SDA.

But happily, my dad found an evangelical Christian church that worships on Sunday--of all things!--and he is almot 91, and until recently played the organ almost every Sunday. It was also a great joy to see my mother at least go with him to church, and we all happily partake of communion. The Lord Jesus certainly healed the scars of the past.

As for my journey, I had a long wilderness wandering for about ten years, when, I drifted away from the Lord, but, since He saved me eternally, He would not let me stay in the wilderness. The Good Shepherd found me again, and in March of 2004, I had a new experience and joy in the Lord. Now my passion is for the gospel!

Stan

Stan, I’ve heard your story many times before, but for some reason today after reading it again, I was brought nearly to tears.

What an awesome God we serve, and what glorious good news he has given us!

Thank you,

Greg