phen,

You have created a monster list of things to talk about and unfortunately I just don’t have the time to do so as I am on vacation and have limited access to a computer.

I can only speak from my own experience on how I have viewed certain doctrines, whether from an SDA slant or not. For the record, I came into the SDA church from the Catholic faith at the age of 12 so you can imagine that all my knowledge had to come from some sort of slant in the beginning until I was mature enough to either validate or reject that which I was brought up with, both concerning the Catholic faith and the SDA faith.

However, I believe that many of us interpret alot of the scriptures on a specific slant no matter how much we want to say that we have come to the conclusions we have strictly by bible study alone. Were this the case, then everybody who has approached bible study with a spirit of not being influenced by any slant would come to the same conclusions on all points of doctrine.

In my case, I believe that in starting with a slant in some instances, I have studied and validated what the SDA church believes (such as Sabbath, conditional immortality and annihilation) and in my studies have come to conclusions that disagree with my church (such as prophetic interpretation of Daniel 8 and 9 and the tradtional interpretation of the investigative judgment).

Hardly something somebody would do if they were reading the scriptures ‘through EGW glasses’ or from an ‘SDA slant’.

Guibox, thanks for letting us know a little more about your background.  I respect you for admitting the problems you have with the Adventist church, and I respect you for your conclusions on the Sabbath, although I disagree with them.  I agree with you that some (very prominent) former Adventists have gone too far in denouncing everything about the Adventist church.

I think it was Zane who way back on this thread talked about the “indifferent things” of the Christian faith (adiaphora).  Others throughout history have formulated this idea in various ways along the lines of “In essentials, unity, in nonessentials, charity, and in all things, Jesus Christ”.  The trick is obviously in figuring out what those “nonessentials” or “indifferent things” are.  Perhaps many of our debates about Adventism fall into this category and we spend much of our energy hardening our positions on things of little consequence.

Where I believe the line should be drawn is with Jesus Christ and the gospel.  This is where the apostle Paul drew the line with the Galatian church (Gal. 1:8-9), so we have a great example to follow.  The gospel is not up for debate, it is literally the “faith that was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3).  When a church or individuals start tinkering with the gospel, or even claiming ownership of it through their private interpretation not validated in Scripture, Christians have a duty to speak up.

We’ve all had different experiences in Adventism, but hopefully those who are reading here–regardless of whether we’re inside or outside the Adventist church–care about preserving the precious good news of God’s redeeming grace in Jesus Christ.  We may not agree on all points, but let us be united in love for our Savior who has completed his work on our behalf and said “It is finished!”

Greg

Hi Denise!  By default, the email notification feature is turned off, so you need to enable it.  The way to do this is by clicking on “user profile” in the blue box at the top right side of the page.  This box should have your username at the top.

Once you’ve clicked on “user profile”, click on the “edit” tab.  Incidentally, you can also change your password here, or change personal information about yourself by clicking on the “Personal Information” tab.

If you want to receive an email for each new post that is made to the site, click on “Aggressive notification of daily messages”.  If you want to receive a daily digest email of unread messages, click on “Receive daily email of unread messages”.  You should also probably click on the box near the bottom of the page that says “Autosubscribe”.  This will send an email notification after anyone comments on a thread in which you’ve participated.

Feel free to experiment with the settings until you find something that works well and doesn’t clog up your email box too much.

If anyone needs additional help, don’t hesitate to send me an email:

Greg

Posted anonymously by: Phen

Thanks Greg for the instructions on how to register for an account. I will try that out as time permits.I do try to get those smileys but am unable to,I now see why.

Thanks Denise,and may Jesus Christ be praised each time we presume to write anything to defend the faith. I love the text that says “But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.” Gal.6:14 Thank you Jesus.

Guibox, I am happy that we can discuss the bible,and Jesus will be glorified as we do so, even though we do not agree on every point. Happy that we are both on the same page as far as Daniel 8 is concerned. God be with you as you continue to study the word, as we all should be doing on a daily basis. Jesus is faithful as he leads us into truth.

Thanks, everyone, for your congratulations!!

I put up a few more pictures on my webpage, but those are about two weeks old now… young Timothy is three weeks old today!

Greg, thank you for that 11-point list!  You know, one thing I need to do for this article is annotate the first paragraph of the “How Dare I...” section.  If anyone has references handy of when those terms were used, could you email them to me?  Thanks.

All blessings in Jesus,
Ramone

Hey Ramone, those pictures are great!  Your kung fu sequence reminded me of when I snapped about 1000 photos of my first born child within the first month of her life.  Every movement or expression she made captivated me and demanded digital preservation.  I don’t know what people did before the advent of digital cameras.

Regarding your references, the one about Satan impersonating Christ (I hate to even bring this up in the same post with your family) comes from Early Writings, page 56 (1882 edition):

[quote author="Ellen White"]
I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne; they did not know that Jesus had left it. Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God. I saw them look up to the throne, and pray, “Father, give us Thy Spirit.” Satan would then breathe upon them an unholy influence; in it there was light and much power, but no sweet love, joy, and peace. Satan’s object was to keep them deceived and to draw back and deceive God’s children.

Source here.

The reference to the gospel not being preached in Adventism for the first 40 years does not come from any one source, but rather in the lack of teaching on righteousness by faith until Jones and Waggoner brought it to the forefront at the 1888 General Conference meeting.  Ellen White famously took the side of Jones and Waggoner, who were roundly criticized by the majority for suggesting that righteousness came apart from works of the law.  Ellen White said this is what her message had been for the “last 44 years,” however, upon looking back at her work, this is not what we find.

[quote author="Ellen White"]
The faith of Jesus has been overlooked and treated in an indifferent, careless manner. It has not occupied the prominent position in which it was revealed to John. Faith in Christ as the sinner’s only hope has been largely left out, not only of the discourses given but of the religious experience of very many who claim to believe the third angel’s message. At this meeting I bore testimony that the most precious light had been shining forth from the Scriptures in the presentation of the great subject of the righteousness of Christ connected with the law, which should be constantly kept before the sinner as his only hope of salvation. This was not new light to me, for it had come to me from higher authority for the last forty-four years, and I had presented it to our people by pen and voice in the testimonies of His Spirit. But very few had responded except by assent to the testimonies borne upon this subject. There was altogether too little spoken and written upon this great question. The discourses of some might be correctly represented as like the offering of Cain--Christless.

Source here

The shut door teaching comes from various sources, but the one that’s still in print is found in Early Writings, beginning on page 42:

[quote author="Ellen White"]
Sabbath, March 24, 1849, we had a sweet and very interesting meeting with the brethren at Topsham, Maine. The Holy Ghost was poured out upon us, and I was taken off in the Spirit to the city of the living God. Then I was shown that the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ relating to the shut door could not be separated, and that the time for the commandments of God to shine out with all their importance, and for God’s people to be tried on the Sabbath truth, was when the door was opened in the most holy place in the heavenly sanctuary, where the ark is, in which are contained the ten commandments. This door was not opened until the mediation of Jesus was finished in the holy place of the sanctuary in 1844. Then Jesus rose up and shut the door of the holy place, and opened the door into the most holy, and passed within the second veil, where He now stands by the ark, and where the faith of Israel now reaches.

I saw that Jesus had shut the door of the holy place, and no man can open it; and that He had opened the door into the most holy, and no man can shut it (Revelation 3:7,8); [SEE PAGE 86. SEE ALSO APPENDIX.] and that since Jesus has opened the door into the most holy place, which contains the ark, the commandments have been shining out to God’s people, and they are being tested on the Sabbath question.

I saw that the present test on the Sabbath could not come until the mediation of Jesus in the holy place was finished and He had passed within the second veil; therefore Christians who fell asleep before the door was opened into the most holy, when the midnight cry was finished, at the seventh month, 1844, and who had not kept the true Sabbath, now rest in hope; for they had not the light and the test on the Sabbath which we now have since that door was opened. I saw that Satan was tempting some of God’s people on this point. Because so many good Christians have fallen asleep in the triumphs of faith and have not kept the true Sabbath, they were doubting about its being a test for us now.

The enemies of the present truth have been trying to open the door of the holy place, that Jesus has shut, and to close the door of the most holy place, which He opened in 1844, where the ark is, containing the two tables of stone on which are written the ten commandments by the finger of Jehovah.

Source here
Many more references can be found here.

This is all I have time for right now.  Just looking back on these quotes gives me pause and should give all of us food for thought about the prophetic claims of Ellen White.  The message of the Bible in its entirety is that “no man is righteous”, “no one is good”, and the only test of salvation is faith in Jesus Christ.  The claim that God made the Sabbath a test of salvation and that the door of His mercy was closed to those who did not accept this “truth” is at odds with the Spirit who says “Come” and “let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.” (Revelation 22:17)

Greg

The Adventist Reformation

You know, I was thinking about the many attempts of various types of Adventists to “reform” Adventism, to remove all the legalistic stuff, the abuses, to clean up some doctrine, etc.

It reminded me of the Catholic ”Counter-Reformation”.  As the Protestant Reformation swept across Europe, many in the Catholic church saw the need to “reform”—some out of genuine concern for the church, others for fear of losing members to Protestantism, etc.  Some good and reform did come of it, but the overall state of the Catholic church remained unchanged by the knowledge of justification by faith in Christ.  The institution focused on “reforms” but the heart of Catholic belief was not changed, and the Gospel was not fully recognized and embraced.

It starkly parallels progressive/liberal Adventist attempts to reform Adventism without changing the beliefs which Adventism rest on.  Just like Catholicism did not rid herself of worshiping Mary, the hierarchy & authority of the institution and the insertion of works into one’s salvation, in the same way “Adventist reformation” has not rid Adventism of Ellen White, the institutional hierarchy, and the foundational beliefs which insert works into one’s salvation (and much more).

Interesting parallel, no?

Blessings in the freedom of Christ, who tears us down to nothing and rebuilds us in His righteousness alone!

Resting in Him,
Ramone

P.S.  Greg, thank you for those references!  I didn’t see them until later, but I appreciate them.  One of them will be used in the Proclamation version of the article, which is shorter.

Ramone,

I have always believed that both Roman Catholicism and Adventism are systems that cannot be reformed, or else the reason for their existence would be taken away. If you take away popery and Maryolatry from Romanism, then you have no more Rome.  If you take away ellenolatry from Adventism plus their unbiblical 1844 doctrine, then you have no more true Adventism.

Stan

Stan, very true.  I talked with one of my friends last night who is currently attending the seminary at Andrews.  He is very “progressive” in his thinking and tends to be on the postmodern side in his Christianity, but Ellen White is still extremely important to him.

One of the things he mentioned was that there would be a new book or pamphlet of some sort released soon that explains the history behind the “shut door” teaching.  He said that documents written by Ellen White will be released that show she was merely following along with William Miller’s teaching in proclaiming the shut door, and that she held the shut door teaching later into her prophetic ministry but the focus was on “ignoring God’s revealed truth”, with the door of salvation being shut for those who do this.  Of course all of this is in contradiction to her original vision that showed all who did not accept the advent message would be lost, and salvation was no longer possible for them.

I am very sad that people need to go to such lengths to explain something that is so indefensible.

Greg

Hmm.  I think I’m going to have to start referring to progressives’ attempts at reform as the “Adventist Counter-Reformation”.

John 3:16
Wow, I have missed a lot by lossing all my favorites when I had trouble with my computer.
Ramone, I read your article about the shrine to the family there in Japan.  I see the parallels to adventism. 
I have read so much and so much is going through my head that I cannot write a coherent comment. 
It is good to be back.
Diana

Diana,

It is great to have you back. Hope to see you more often.

Stan

A more condensed version of the article has been put in the latest Proclamation! magazine here:

http://lifeassuranceministries.org/Proclamation2007_MayJun.pdf

If anybody has any flak or challenges the way I presented the “butsudan” and the culture, email it to me. I don’t know everything there is to know, but I’m in a position where I can research it and ask people very easily (hey, I’m in Japan!).

Lord, I pray for Japanese Adventists and Japanese-American Adventists who will read the article. Firstly I pray that I haven’t offended wrongly, that I haven’t misrepresented the tradition of the family altar. But more than that, I pray that they will see the spiritual parallel and the spirit behind Adventism. And even more than that, I pray they will begin to see Your Sabbath-rest and begin believing and preaching it regardless of the cost.