Guibox wrote:My reply in bold

“Do you feel good about it? Do you feel free? Do you feel forgiven?  I most assuredly feel good about it!  I absolutely feel free.  I don’t have to “feel” forgiven, I know I am forgiven because of my belief in and acceptance of Christ my Atoning Substitute.

Probably not.

So what’s changed from ‘Moses’ to ‘Christ’? Where has the law lost it’s power to convict, remind and push us to Christ?Everything has changed, praise God!

This law nor this power hasn’t changed simply because of the Spirit. Having the law written in our hearts does not change it’s mandates.Who said anything about ‘changing it’s mandates?’ My last paragraph says the law, written in our hearts, Paul calls “the law of Christ” is ‘expanded and magnified.’

But as for saying the law hasn’t changed, I refer you to Heb 7:12 which says “it is necessary there takes place a change of the law also” when there is a change in priesthood.

What has changed is that we are no longer under condemnation of the law.  Isn’t that what Rom 8:1 says?

The law still stands. We are no more free to disobey God’s commands then they were in Moses’ time.Again I ask, who said anything about being free to disobey? Desire to ‘obey out of love’ doesn’t change that fact.Motive is everything.  God looks for willing obedience. Do you not think that the Israelites wanted to ‘obey out of love’?”
I absolutely do not believe the Israelites wanted to obey out of love.  God “did not care for them” (Heb 8:9). It was not a love relationship at all.  They were dis-believing and rebellious and this is why most of them never entered into the promised rest in Canaan (Heb 4:6, 2, 11)

Jess

I’m coming to this discussion a little late (studying this weekend, unable to read/respond until now) but I’d also like to thank you, Jess, for putting your thoughts together on this crucial topic for us.

I’ve been mulling over some of the issues raised by this thread and others in recent days.  There is a big break in some people’s minds between a life “in the Spirit” and a life of “obedience to the law”.  The more I contemplate these issues, the more I am seeing a false dichotomy in the separation between faith and obedience.

Jess, what I hear you saying based on your last post resonates with this, that if we are “in the Spirit” our motivation will change and our desire to obey will be part of that regenerating work God performs in us.  “Be transformed by the renewing of your minds” (Romans 12:2) captures this idea well.  In Christ, we are made into a new creation and we are given new motives and thought patterns that harmonize with God’s will for our lives.  If these thought patterns and motives conform to the timeless moral qualities of God’s law–the law of Christ–we should not be surprised!

God is the author and finisher of our faith, and He gives us the power not only to believe, but to obey.  As we see from Paul’s lament in Romans 7, we will never do this perfectly while we live with indwelling sin, but our former rebellious desires will no longer rule us as they once did, now being subject to the higher purpose of serving the law of God with our minds (Romans 7:25).  When we are tempted to despair because of our sins, saying with the apostle, “Wretched man that I am!  Who will deliver me from this body of death?” (Romans 7:24), we need look no further for the answer than Romans 8:1-2.

Thanks to everyone for contributing to this discussion, and may we never cease to learn, humbling ourselves anew each day before God’s Word.

Greg

Greg,

I do not see any meaningful difference between the texts referring to “life in the Spirit/indwelling Christ” and Jesus teaching of what I call “transcending union” in John 15; our connection as nothing but a “branch” to the Vine or Tree (of life) which is Christ, Who is grounded in the Father.  His command here is to “abide in Me,” “abide in My love” v9.  v.10 says if we “keep (His) commandments we will abide in (His) love.” Sanctificiation will begin to be in evidence gradually, growing, increasing, as does natural fruit blossom and grow to full maturity when it is harvested. But this is also dependent upon our maintaining this connection/union, focusing daily upon the point of union (which is NOT at the end of our branch where fruit appears).  How can this union be healthy and real if a person does not feast upon the Living Word of God daily and have an active, continuous prayer life?

I do not see any lessening of the force of temptations and the revelation of how saturated my human “natural / carnal” nature is with sin.  In some areas it is more intense.

Lest someone jump on “full maturity” as suggesting reaching perfection, that is NOT my meaning.  But we will make progress in holiness ALL because it is Christ’s life, motivation, Spirit, power, energy,flowing from Himself (Vine) into us (the branches united to Him).  It is ALL
of Christ from beginning to end.

Oh may we be truly united to and with Christ Jesus rather than simply Christians in profession and declaration.

Jess

This may not be of interest to some, as it seems as though we have exhausted the topic of the ten commandments, but in the bible there is always something new to discover.

I wanted to find out exactly why these ten were called the ministration of death. I noticed that Agapetos asked five questions about four (4)different times.
what is 1)the ministration of death
2) the ministry of condemnation
3) the letter that kills
4) the strength and power of sin
5) the testimony against us?

There were all these quotes from a variety of sources. I don’t pretend to know more than anyone else, I am just reading and learning.I don’t mind quotes either, contrary to popular belief, but they can be too many. I prefer to struggle with the bible after coming from a situation that most on here have come from.

Some insist that the ten commandments could be used “lawfully” to bring sinners to Christ. Some say that they are a representation of God’s character ( which I grew up believing), while others say that they are lovingly given by God, so we will obey them out of a loving relationship with him yet others say that they are a “gift that comes after you’re already saved.”

If these represent God’s character and they were lovingly given, why was God so angry with these stiff necked, murmurring people who always were talking of going back to Egypt? No wonder some people don’t want to have anything to do with our God!

I think people realize that where there is a law there is a consequence. Ask a set of children to formulate a rule in a simple game and they also come up with a punishment that goes along with it, a consequence.

I looked at each commandment and saw that from start to finish, if it was not kept fully, it meant you would be (a)put to death(b) destroyed,(c) cut off from the people (d) stoned,(e)no pardon ( f) God’s anger waxed hot; just some of the words used. I will use the KISS method here as I do not want to prolong this post.

# 1.No other Gods: sacrifice to other gods,disobey God,not listen to God’s command, prophet goes after other Gods: punishment- death,destroyed, put to death,anger waxed hot. Exodus 22:20, Exodus 23:21,22, Exodus 32: 8-12,27,Leviticus 20: 2, Deuteronomy 9:12;13:1; 17:2-5.

# 2. Images, not to bow down, I am God, love me and keep my commandments: punishment -Deuteronomy 13, also goes with # 1.

# 3. Name of God in vain- not guiltless: curse God, blaspheme God, murmur against God- punishment- put to death, stoned, died of plague. Leviticus 34:11-15; Leviticus 24: 16-23; Numbers 14:35-37.

#4.Sabbath: six days labour, no work (son, daughter, man/maid servant, cattle, strangers: ant work, break sabbath, gather sticks-punishment- put to death. Exodus 31:15; Exodus 25:2;Numbers 15:32-37.

#5. Honour mother/father, live long: curse parents, smite parents, not obey parents-punishment- put to death, perish from the land, stoned.

#6.Kill: kill man- punishment - put to death, even the ox was put to death, ox and owner put to death. Exodus 21:12,14,20,22-23,28,29; Levitucus 24:16-23.

#7. Adultery: lie with beast in same category, wife commit adultery ( both persons guilty)- punishment- put to death.Exodus 22:19; Leviticus 20:10; Numbers 5:12.

#8. Stealing: punishment- put to death. Exodus 21:16; Exodus 22:1.

#9. False witness: not justified( imply death) punishment- put to death. Exodus 23:7.

#20. Covet- Neighbours’ wife, manservant, maidservant, ox, ass, anything: punishment- death, cut off. Leviticus 20:10.

Of course the list is not exhaustive.Moses did call the commandments, statutes, judgements righteous, Deuteronomy 4:7,8. So if the ministration of death, written and engraved in stones was glorious,what about the new, which Jesus instituted? These are the commandments which the Lord gave to Moses from the day that the Lord commanded Moses- if they don’t DO, they would be CUT OFF. Numbers 15: 22,23.
How can we keep saying that it was the sin and not the law that was nailed to the cross, and that was against us?

In a performance driven religion, there are rules to follow. Moses said,as God told him, that they should keep ALL or they would be cursed. This is NOT the Gospel. If people want to hang on to the ministration of death, nothing will stop them. The Israelites were stubborn and so are people in this New Covenant time.

Contrary to popular belief, the Law is distinct from the prophets and psalms.see Luke 24:44, Luke 18:31, Luke 16:16,17, 29.

When we know Jesus, we can rest in him. The Lord is our strength. We live and rest in his wisdom.We can have the seventh day every day for the rest of our lives,or we can wilfully try to “keep” the law and try to apply it “lawfully” and make ourselves and others miserble. The problem with people wanting to use the law, is that they bring others into the condemnation that they are under.

Phen B have you read the Deacon’s corner. The Author and Finisher of Our Faith?  The Deacon. 

[quote author="Phen"]
When we know Jesus, we can rest in him. The Lord is our strength. We live and rest in his wisdom.We can have the seventh day every day for the rest of our lives,or we can wilfully try to “keep” the law and try to apply it “lawfully” and make ourselves and others miserble.

Hi Phen, thanks for taking the time to write out your thoughts.  I agree that the law can be used to make ourselves and others miserable, but I don’t believe this is the only result the law brings.  For example, what do we do with the Bible texts where both Paul and David expressed “delight” in the law?  What do we do with Romans 8:4, that says, the “righteous requirement of the law” is fulfilled in us, who walk “not according to the flesh, but the Spirit?”

I think you are absolutely correct that the law can be a heavy task-master and in many cases, becomes the weapon of choice to bring people “into line”.  But for someone who has been freely granted eternal life through the finished work of Christ, don’t you think it is possible for that person to “delight in the law” like Paul and David did?

Greg

The law can be looked at as a set of rules, a list of dos and don’ts. Or it can be looked at as a relationship. God knows what is best for us in our personal lives, our devotional lives and our interpersonal relationships. We don’t keep the law to make us better, we keep it because it makes sense and we love God. Just as we love someone else we do whatever we can for them because we love them, not because we have to.

Do you love God so much? Why would you want to even think of putting anything before Him or misrepresenting Him? Do you love your neighbor? Why would it be a burden to follow something that says ‘don’t kill or steal from him’?

Those who are ‘under the law’ are truly those who haven’t internalized the rich principles of love and safety that the 10 commandments entail. They see the law as a condemning ministry of death even though ‘there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus’. The law for the sinner is different than the same law for the Christian.

The sinner sees condemnation, the Christian now sees freedom from evil and fear and harmony amongst each other and God. This is why Paul can say that the law condemns but that it is ‘holy just and good’ and one can ‘delight’ in the law.

Having Christ makes all the difference in how the law is used and how it is viewed. Viewing through Christ-focused glasses is much different than trying to see it with sinner-vision.

It is really all a matter of perspective this side of the cross.

I want to add a footnote to this thread.  Today, I ran across a commentary on Colossians by Peter T. O’Brien.  The well-known scholar D.A. Carson regards O’Brien’s commentary as the best one available for Colossians, since O’Brien uses a literal reading of the underlying Greek text for his exegesis (see here).

I was able to see a few pages of O’Brien’s book online, and here’s what he says about the “record of debt” (cheirographon) of Colossians 2:13-14:

[quote author="Peter T. O’Brien"]
Our preference is to understand cheirographon as the signed acknowledgement of our indebtedness before God. Like an IOU it contained penalty clauses (see Job 5:3; Philemon 19). The Jews had contracted to obey the law, and in their case the penalty for breach of this contract meant death (Deut. 27:14-26; Deut. 30:15-20). Paul assumes that the Gentiles were committed, through their consciences, to a similar obligation, to the moral law in as much as they understood it (cf. Rom. 2:14-15). Since the obligation had not been discharged by either group the “bond” remained against us.

Accordingly, O’Brien would not agree with the conclusions drawn by some on this thread, that the law was nailed to the cross. The implications for accepting this interpretation are rather significant, so a careful study of this text is warranted. I stand with O’Brien in my belief that it is the debt of our sins that was nailed to the cross, not the moral law or our obligation to uphold it in Christ.

Greg

Thanks Greg,

I agree. I used to be a part of the group who believed that even the moral law was nailed to the cross. But the explanation of the debt seems to make a lot more sense.

Stan