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Posted: 28 June 2007 04:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 151 ]  
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Posted anonymously by: Ane

Pastor Williams,

This week I received my copy of the KS/NE Union magazine, “The Outlook”.
The conference president, Dennis Carlson, made the comment in his article that the church is loosing it’s youth at the transition point from classroom to marketplace. Evidently this study was done by Martin Weber. The reasons cited are as follows:

1. The stresses and distractions of getting established in a profession account for much attrition.

2. The new-found freedom from accountability on weekends.

3. They are away from college-sponsored Sabbath activities.

4. Open weekends are a temptation to escape town.

5. Church is left behind in many rear view mirrors.

I would challenge this study by saying, the REASON this is happening is because all of us live what we actually believe.

I also find it interesting that not one word is mentioned about them leaving over doctrine. I live in the hub of Adventist-ville. Trust me your youth are leaving over doctrine!

John

I would respond the same way to your last post. People live what they believe!

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Posted: 28 June 2007 08:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 152 ]  
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Ane,

I have appreciated your forthright direct comments.

Your assessment noted in your last post is right on. I have 4 children aged 18-22 and they loose interest, not in Christ, or living the Christian life, but rather the hypocrisy and phoniness of so many things(note I didn’t say people) that they see in Adventism. Rules that really have been passed down from generation to generation that don’t make sense, and are based more on tradition than any type of Scriptural foundation.

I think you are right when you point out that many young people leave Adventism after High School or College, because they did not find a relationship with Christ in Adventism, and today’s young people are searching for authenticity and honesty in their theology. They are not afraid to step out if they find a better presentation of Christianity somewheres else. I have to say they are really a very enlightened lot.

One thing today’s youth will not tolerate is phoniness. They can spot it a mile away, and that is why they are leaving Adventism in droves.

I know, because I live with a house full of them.

Carry on,

Randy

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Posted: 28 June 2007 10:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 153 ]  
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Posted anonymously by: Ane

Randy,

Here is the real spine chilling aspect of all this and is what has me deeply concerned for my own children.

My family is now attending an Evangelical church and we are all overcome by how their high school, college age and young adult population is exploding. We are all experiencing an enthusiasm and passion for Jesus amongst these kids that is absolutely contagious! They act like Jesus is their best friend and like they have either met or know Him personally.

My 14 year old who has grown up in the SDA system is also blown away by their passion, to the point that it makes her uncomfortable to be around them. Several times she has expressed to me that she only feels “normal” with her old SDA friends. At first I thought I understood where that was coming from and why she felt that way. I know we yanked her out of the system at a pivotal time in her “friendship” life.

Recently I was impressed to dig dipper to get at the root of those comments she kept making. Upon digging deeper I discovered that what she means is that when she’s around her SDA friends she feels as dead as they are so they make her feel like she is spiritually normal ...  but when she is around her new youth group she realizes those kids have something she has never in her life experienced spiritually and does not know how to attain or even if it is possible to attain.

This is NOT what a parent wants to hear ... that your child would rather hang out with spiritually dead friends than ones on fire. I can’t tell you how that sends chills down my spine!

I’ve been involved enough now in our new church’s youth groups to know exactly what she means though. Some of the youth I’ve met put me to shame. They have a relationship with Jesus that I am just now in my 40s beginning to experience. I wonder how different my life would have been had I been raised with what they have been taught.

What I have noticed about the difference between the way these youth are raised versus the way I was raised is this ... Jesus is the focus of everything in their lives and these kids are raised knowing their salvation is secure. They don’t doubt it for one minute. And they live like they are saved. They are a witness to me!

I actually met one young lady who showed up at a youth group on Saturday night rather dressed up for the very casual occasion. When I asked her why, she told me it was homecoming at her high school and since she didn’t have a date to it, she decided that after the youth group was over she was going to go have a date with Jesus and stated that since she would’ve gotten dressed up for a “real” date she ought to at least do it for Him ... this girl wasn’t a geek. She was very cute and very popular. She blew me away. She wasn’t pathetic or pitiful ... like I would have been at her age. At 18 going on a date with Jesus, are you kidding me ... I would have been home in my room feeling sorry for myself because everyone was having fun and I wasn’t asked out : ( It would not have even occurred to me to spend time with Jesus in my room by myself, let alone plan a date with Him. Furthermore this girl has every right in the world to feel sorry for herself because just 2 years earlier her mother passed away and left her to become the mother of her younger siblings. But you NEVER see this young lady wear anything but a smile and enthusiasm for Jesus.

I agree with you Randy, the number one problem with our youth is they never got the relationship part of their walk up and off the ground. Once you have that everything else falls into place.

If all you have is religion, that is easy to walk away from. Believe me I did. Now that I’ve experienced the relationship, or as Greg said, now that I’ve eaten at the banqueting table, I’m not getting up I like what I’ve eaten.

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Posted: 28 June 2007 11:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 154 ]  
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Posted anonymously by: Bobj

John,

I’m not a theologian, but even in OT times when a sinner brought a lamb for sacrifice the priest examined the LAMB to make sure IT was perfect (without blemish, etc)--not the sinner, who had to repeatedly and continually bring sin offerings throughout his entire life.

Wouldn’t this concept alone make the IJ seem a little unusual?  In the IJ, the SINNER is examined to see if HE is perfect and able to stand before God without sinning and without Christ as Mediator or Substitute.

Why would a sinner even need a Saviour if Jesus is of no value at that moment?  The logic escapes me.

I can appreciate your frustration with the IJ!!

Bob

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Posted: 28 June 2007 12:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 155 ]  
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Posted anonymously by: Ane

Bob

GREAT OBSERVATION, CAN I PLAGARIZE THAT?

Ane

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Posted: 28 June 2007 02:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 156 ]  
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Posted anonymously by: Bobj

Ane

Yes, of course. 

So thankful for the Lord Jesus Christ!

Bob

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Posted: 28 June 2007 10:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 157 ]  
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Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. (Romans 8:33 ESV)

In his book, Knowing God, noted theologian J.I. Packer addresses Romans 8:33 in a chapter entitled “The Adequacy of God”.  Packer’s words have a direct bearing on this discussion, so I will include an excerpt below.

[quote author="J.I. Packer"]
Paul wrote the two previous verses to counter the Christian’s fear of opposition and privation among men; he writes this verse to counter fear of rejection by God.  There are two sorts of sick consciences, those that are not aware enough of sin and those that are not aware enough of pardon, and it is to the second sort that Paul is ministering now.  He knows how easily the conscience of a Christian under pressure can grow morbid, particularly when that Christian’s nose is rubbed as Romans 7:24-25 would rub it in the reality of continued sin and failure.  Paul knows too how impossible it is for Christian hope to make a person’s heart rejoice while doubts of his security as a justified believer still remain.  So, as the next stage in his outline of what Christians should say to “these things,” Paul speaks directly to the fear (to which no Christian is a total stranger) that present justification may be no more than provisional–that it may one day be lost by reason of the imperfections of one’s Christian life.

Paul does not for a moment deny that Christians fail and fall, sometimes grievously, nor does he question that (as all true Christians know, and as his own words in Romans 7 reveal) the memory of sins committed after becoming a Christian is far more painful than are any thoughts of one’s moral lapses, however gross, before that time.  But Paul denies emphatically that any lapses now can endanger our justified status.  The reason, he says in effect, is simple: Nobody is in a position to get God’s verdict reviewed! The NEB rendering puts Paul’s point well: “Who will be the accuser of God’s chosen ones?” Paul’s wording enforces the point in several ways.

First, Paul brings in a reminder of God’s grace in election.  “Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect?” Remember, says Paul, that those whom God justifies now were chosen from eternity for final salvation, and if their justification were at any stage revoked, God’s plan for them would be entirely overthrown.  So loss of justification is inconceivable on that score.

Second, Paul brings in a reminder of God’s sovereignty in judgment.  “It is God who justifies; who is to condemn?” If it is God, the Maker and Judge of all, who passes the justifying sentence–that is, who declares that you have been set right with his law and with himself, and are not now liable to death for your sins, but are accepted in Christ–and if God has passed this sentence in full view of all your shortcomings, justifying you on the explicit basis and understanding that you were not righteous, but ungodly (Romans 4:5), then nobody can ever challenge the verdict, not even “the accuser of the brethren” himself.  Nobody can alter God’s decision over his head–there is only one Judge!–and nobody can produce new evidence of your depravity that will make God change his mind.  For God justified you with (so to speak) his eyes open.  He knew the worst about you at the time when he accepted you for Jesus’ sake; and the verdict which he passed then was, and is, final.

In the Bible world, judgment was a royal prerogative.  The royal judge, in whom all the powers of legislature, judiciary and executive came together, was expected, once he had settled what a person’s rights were, to take action to see that the person got them.  Thus the king became champion and protector of those whom he justified in judgment.  This is the background of Paul’s thought here: The sovereign Lord who justified you will take active steps to see that the status he has given you is maintained and enjoyed to the full.  So loss of justification is inconceivable on this score also.

Third, Paul brings in a reminder of Christ’s effectiveness in mediation.  It is best, with the RSV, to read the reference to Christ in Romans 8:34 as a question.  “Who is to condemn?  Is it Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us?” All that Paul says serves to show that the idea of Christ condemning us is absurd.  He died–to save us from condemnation, by bearing the penalty of our sins as our substitute.  He rose and was exalted–“as Israel” (Acts 5:31).  Now, by virtue of his enthroned presence at the Father’s right hand, he intercedes with authority for us–that is, he intervenes in our interest to ensure that we receive all that he died to procure for us.  Shall he now condemn us?–he, the Mediator, who loved us and gave himself for us, and whose constant concern in heaven is that we should enjoy the full fruits of his redemption?  The idea is grotesque and impossible.

Source: Knowing God, J.I. Packer, pp. 272-273, underlining added for emphasis.

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Posted: 29 June 2007 02:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 158 ]  
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Posted anonymously by: dwayne

Greg,

Thank you for posting that. All I can say is Amen! Blessings to you.

dwayne

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Posted: 29 June 2007 05:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 159 ]  
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Coffee Break time!

Everyone take off your theological-debate aprons.  Sit
yourselves down and get refreshed before the bell rings
for the next round to begin.  (smiles)

2 Cor 5:21 (NASB)

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

1 Cor 1:30 (Ibid)

But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redeption, v.31 so that, just as it is written, ‘Let Him who boasts, boast in the Lord.’

There is no longer that dark cloud of fear that never left, and the thought that sent chills up and down my spine, wondering, when that time comes, how AM I ACTUALLY GOING TO STAND BEFORE GOD ‘WITHOUT A MEDIATOR?’ How am I EVER to reach perfection of character, so that as EG White says,
I can reach what Jesus was, and never sin, “not even by a thought?”

Here in just two texts, I am told that Jesus was made sin FOR ME, SO THAT I might “become the righteousness of God in Him” (by faith!) He, Jesus Himself, BECAME, - past tense - “righteousness AND sanctification” SO THAT all my boasting can ONLY BE of Him.  Soli Deo Gloria!

HE, Jesus the Christ, His Majesty, our King, Redeemer, Atoning spotless Sacrifice; IS our righteousness AND our sanctification.  It is ALL in Christ.  Not an ounce in me
and my strivings, as a Week of Prayer Adventist minister told me, “Just try harder.”

This is why, dear friends, the Gospel IS JESUS!

Jess

What more needs to be said?  Praise God! 

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Posted: 29 June 2007 03:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 160 ]  
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I don’t know if Pastor Williams is still monitoring this site, but I’m alittle bit confused.  Perhaps he will help me out. I have a difficult time understanding SDA theology.

At the local SDA church here in New MExico, if you want to participate in church activities, you either believe in Mrs White completely and accept her writings as just as absolutely authoritative, or you are expected to sit down and shut up. Furthermore, I understand ministers can not work for the church unless they accept Mrs. White as the inspired Bible commentator whose teachings are always the final word. Am I right that the for the SDA minister, it is OK to use the Bible so long as you use it to prove EGW doctrines?

As for the Investigative Judgment, I understand it is very important for the following reasons.  Am I wrong?  This is what I find in EGW.
1.  When the Adventist confesses his sins, he is “not completely released from the condemnation of the law.”
2.  Only when the Adventist passes the investigative judgement are his sins actually blotted out.
3.  Even when we confess our sins, Jesus’ blood doesn’t release the sinner from the legal requirement to suffer for the sins.  That is only achieved when we pass the investigative judgment.  Unless we pass the Investigative Judgment, every sin we have ever done whether they have been confessed or not will be placed on us and we will burn for an extra length of time for each sin depending upon how bad the sin is.  Each sin is worth so many hours in hell.
4.  If the Adventist does pass the Investigative Judgment, he will not be available to suffer for those sins so Satan will suffer in his place.  Satan will burn much longer than anyone else in hell because he is carrying so many sins.
5.  Because Jesus’ death doesn’t negate the need for someone to suffer in hell for confessed sins, our scapegoat, Satan, suffers vicariously for those people who pass the Investigative judgment and are saved.
6. Jesus’ blood doesn’t cancel sins but works like some type of heavenly solvent so the sins can be transported around in the heavenly sanctuary and eventually placed either on the sinner or onto Satan.

Am I correct in my understanding of EGW?  If I am, is it fair to say this is also what the SDA church believes? 

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Posted: 29 June 2007 05:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 161 ]  
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Posted anonymously by: Pastor Williams

Need a little time to prepare my responses to you all. I have been busy helping one of our churches with 93 VBS students. I have been blessed with two happy churches over the past three years. This church has a blessed VBS every year and three follow-up childrens events (one each quarter). This has been the best assignment I have had. Anyway, please be patient with me for a day or so. Maybe tomorrow (after a nap!), but more likely Sunday I can finish up my responses.

I do appreciate the interaction. Reminds me of my three years of going to UC Berkeley on Sabbath’s and the challenges to my beliefs from those we met as we talked to student and street people. Stimulating. All sorts of opinions, religions, Christians, atheists, anarchists ...

Hope all of you have a blessed weekend.
Sincerely your brother in Christ,
Pastor Williams

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Posted: 30 June 2007 05:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 162 ]  
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Thanks Pastor Williams for your keeping us updated, and continuing the dialogue. I do have to say that most SDA authors would not come on a website like this and spend the time, so I want to thank you for your participation.

Stan

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Posted: 30 June 2007 02:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 163 ]  
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Posted anonymously by: Pastor Williams

Admin note: Since this thread is getting very long, Pastor Williams’ reply has been moved to a new thread.

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