Posted anonymously by: Rick (aka ric_b)

[quote author="GABRIEL PROKSCH"]Hi Stan, The problem with the article is that it’s goal is to demonstrate that adventists worship another Jesus, a foreign deity, being polytheists because they worship three gods, and of course, Jesus is a demon. As others on this forum, I have a big problem when I look back in my experience with Jesus in the SDA church. I have a hard time to believe that I was a polytheist at that time and I worshiped a demon.

That is the crux of the issue for me. I have to reconcile my life while I was an SDA with any comments that I make. I believe that even while I was confused about the true meaning of the Gospel, I was worshipping the true God, praying to the true God, and being led by the true God. Without His continued guidance throughout all of that time, I could have never hoped to have understood what the Gospel really was. And if I believe that I was a Christian while I was an SDA, how can I deny that to others who are SDA now?

Some formers will claim that they weren’t really Christians until after they left SDAism. I know that was not my experience.

[quote author="ric_b"]
I think the best way to combat the false gospel is to focus on the true Gospel.

Rick, that is well-said.

By the way, thanks for linking to us.  I realize you are busy “in the trenches” on CARM, but you are welcome here anytime.

Greg

Greg wrote:

“When any group of individuals exist in isolation–in this case, whether it is a group of current or former Adventists–that group is at risk for following doctrinal rabbit trails. When the group has a leader who makes unfounded claims (such as Adventists not worshiping the true Jesus) without demonstrating willingness to hear and coexist with others who disagree, this should at least raise a red flag.”
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In my observation thru the years of FAF online, I see the group becoming even more polarized around the moderator’s viewpoint. Historic Adventism with it’s charismatic leader Ellen White kept a gripping close knit control on the beliefs of her group. If anyone questioned Ellen White’s authority, then they were dealt with in a manner to silence their voices.

I can’t help but notice similarities in the way FAF online operates. The moderator is a very charming and charismatic woman. Very few people are willing to challenge her statements, and those who have tried have received stern and terse emails from her husband. Some have received stern warnings, but in the case of Greg and myself, it was immediate suspension. They at first promised to meet with Greg and me, and we even had a time and place set, but without warning they wrote and cancelled the meeting. So at that point we had no choice but to contact their pastor, and he graciously met with us to hear our concerns.

There have been some very troubling recent examples of how family life and marriages are meddled with. There are those who have taken seriously the warnings of the loud voices on there that Adventism is a Satanic religion. This has increased the tension in marriages causing discord.

Recently the group was giving one poster a hard time because he chose to go to the Seventh-day Baptist church in Riverside, because his wife still believed in the Sabbath. It was amazing the grief he caught for this, and the moderator told him:

“As long as we are trying to keep our spouses or parents or families happy as a primary objective, we put surrender on a back burner.

I see, Reb, that you are making strides. God is faithful. But as a woman I have to say, I would have trouble respecting a husband I could control by my anger or by threats. And yes, sometimes, as Melissa said, we do lose loved ones when we take our stand with the Lord Jesus.

He is faithful, however; you do not need to fear the future or the unknown. He will walk with you. Pray that you will know how to love your wife and your son for God--not for your sake or even for their sakes, but for God.

You can absolutely trust Him to walk with you and give you courage and wisdom and authority! God is leading you–and He is also asking you to take your appointed role as the spiritual leader and to make choices for the sake of Jesus, not for the sake of appeasing your wife’s anger.”
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I don’t know about you, but this appears to be laying an unnecessary burden on this man--goodness, for going to a SDB church, as this may make his wife happier?

I happen to know that SDB church well, and it’s pastor, as I went there for two years while I was transitioning out of SDA. And this is supposed to be a support group for transitioning Adventists? I could not believe the people who gave him a hard time for this choice of a church.

The FAF gospel has become: ‘If you really want to prove you are following Jesus, then you must give up the Sabbath. So, it becomes Christ plus giving up the Sabbath. Also, you must not believe the decalogue, or you have a veil covering your eyes. And there are other examples.

If you bring up a theological topic they don’t like such as that dreaded word “Calvinism”, then either your post is removed entirely (which happened to me a few times), or it is moved to a secret locked section of the forum.

When I first joined FAF for the first year or so, it was truly a fun and nurturing place to visit. There was almost no controls on what theological topics you could talk about. Something changed over the past year or so, and the climate has changed significantly.

Again, I believe the FAF group has been helpful in many ways, and I still consider them my friends and brothers and sisters in Christ. Those who run a ministry are under a lot of pressure, and I continue to pray for them and wish them well.

Stan

[quote author="Stan Ermshar"]

There have been some very troubling recent examples of how family life and marriages are meddled with. There are those who have taken seriously the warnings of the loud voices on there that Adventism is a Satanic religion. This has increased the tension in marriages causing discord.

I have a hard time believing that there are transitioning-SDAs that go on that forum because they really feel completely and utterly swindled, like they couldn’t think for themselves theologically and doubt everything they’ve learned...I guess they do exist. Under this extreme situation then and in light of what you just said, Stan, I find that FAF has a huge responsibility for those that are split spouses (where one is leaving but the other is still staunch SDA). To basically hear “Your wife/husband is following a different Jesus” and “The SDA faith is satanic” can only cause the poor transitioner who feels they have been living a lie, to have serious problems in their marriage.

I wonder if those at FAF who preach the extreme are aware of the damage their words can cause?

Well Guibox, believe it.  The SDA church is so deceptive and false, especially concerning EGW.  I got sucked in, in 1976 being a very biblically naive girl looking for spiritual certainty I guess.  I had practically zero Bible upbringing.  When a friend of mine became an SDA through some extreme circumstances and was sharing with me about Ellen White, I was totally taken in by the deceptive ways the church presented this “prophet”.  This was 1976.  I was told that she had a third grade education and wrote all these beautiful books and had all this knowledge about health etc.  They forgot to mention that she had a library of 1200 books and had copied copiously from them, that she had a whole team of copyists, editors and secretaries (bookmakers, I think she called them), that she copied the health messages from others, that her writing had been changed, things hidden, and this wonderful fairy tale about Ellen White was what passed for the real story.  Oh, also how if anyone questioned the prophet “they were damned, doomed and lost”, or “had spots on their garments”

Anyway, I digress.  I married an Adventist who worked for the church for 25 years as a teacher, principal and ed. superintendent, so I was in the system.  When you are told over and over how “we have the truth, others are nominal Christians, you shouldn’t read other outside authors etc.  it can be quite brainwashing.  Fortunately, I did start reading other authors and since I had not been raised SDA I was finally able to realize, they didn’t have the truth at all.  They acutally are WRONG!!!  The disfunction within Adventism is quite distrubing, and that was one of the red flags for me along the way, along with many other things. 

I feel very foolish for allowing myself to become so taken in by this.  But when you have no foundation, sometimes a religion that looks good on the outside, seems okay at first, and has a prophet who actually talked with Jesus, visited heaven and all those other amazing stories, can be pretty heady stuff for a person looking for God without a clue how to test or question such things.

The damaged souls from the SDA church should be enough to make anyone take at least a second look at such a system.  Perhaps you are not as aware of these people as I am.  I’ve seen a lot in my years in the church.

So what is your story, Guibox?  I get the feeling that you weren’t raised SDA.  How do you explain such devastation and painful lives from the church that has the “Truth”?  Why has the church been so dishonest concerning EGW?  The real history of the early beginings of this denomination? 

I was watching a biography last night about Joseph Smith, put out by the Mormons.  Joseph and Ellen were so similar it is scary.  The terminology that both churches employ are exactly the same in lot s of areas.  And of course, it was the same kind of one sided, wonderful presentation of Joseph Smith that was told about Ellen White. 

I may be coming on a little strong here, but the deception of SDA far outweighs anything going on at FAF.  I think most people go there for support and “group therapy”.  I don’t think people go there for theological absolutes.  We’ve already done that. 

Carol

Another interesting aside:  When you read former Mormons, JW’s and Adventist stories, they are amazingly and eerily similar.  Wonder why that is? 

Hi Carol,

Thanks for your excellent post. Yes, I like you also was taught in the same way, and for a long time I was held in bondage. The Sabbath was so ingrained in me, that I used to have nightmares that I might be lost and suffer in the lake of fire, if I left the so-called Sabbath truth. That vision that Ellen claimed with a halo around the fourth commandment had an incredible impact on me.

I also agree with this quote of yours:

“I may be coming on a little strong here, but the deception of SDA far outweighs anything going on at FAF. I think most people go there for support and “group therapy”. I don’t think people go there for theological absolutes. We’ve already done that.”
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No, they don’t go there for theological absolutes, but when someone comes on and is given a difficult time because they have left the SDA church, but go to a Seventh-day Baptist church and still keep Sabbath, then I think the function of support turns into manipulation and planting another guilt trip. That is only what I am able to judge based on the reaction of that person. And if there is family strife artificially created out of a non-salvific issue, because, in order to really follow Jesus, you have to give up the Sabbath, then at least I have to point out these kinds of disturbing trends, since I can’t give my opinion over there. But anyone from over there is free to come on and clarify the issues we have brought up.

Romans 14 gives total freedom on this issue. We are not to think that because someone still keeps Sabbath day, that they somehow are just a little bit lacking in their spiritual journey out of Adventism. The Holy Spirit will tell that person what is right, and at the right time.

As far as mormon and SDA stories being similar, I will be the first to admit, as my late friend Walter Martin said, that there is a strong cult-like influence and mentality in Adventism. But this doesn’t mean that the official belief system of SDA has any similarities to Mormonism. The Mormon Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer, and the Mormons teach that humans can become God. Evangelical Adventism has never taught this stuff. However, historical SDAs are very much similar to JW and Mormonism.

Stan

[quote author="Carol"]When you are told over and over how “we have the truth, others are nominal Christians, you shouldn’t read other outside authors etc. it can be quite brainwashing. Fortunately, I did start reading other authors and since I had not been raised SDA I was finally able to realize, they didn’t have the truth at all.

Funny you should mention about not reading non-SDA approved literature...a discussion about this is is going on at Revival Sermons (a mostly conservative SDA site a few of us follow). Although I’d say it is a few zealous posters and historics who advocate such a cultic approach to living and not the official church, or the typical SDA member around these parts. But I have known church members who more or less held to the EGW-only policy or at least advocated such a reading regimen.

It’s a strange posture to take, if for no other reason, than that the person advocating it had to have had a very different, more open-minded view before finding SDAism or else they wouldn’t have read any SDA literature or wouldn’t have attended any SDA meetings.

[quote author="Guibox"]I wonder if those at FAF who preach the extreme are aware of the damage their words can cause?

They re not aware of the damage. they see their position as the only position which does not imply a betrayal of the faith. They are very sensitive to anything which will make them traitors toward Jesus and the gospel.

The big problem for a former adventist is the fact that he was educated to believe strongly that the adventist truth is the only way to be saved and kept away from spiritual deception and perdition. Leaving adventism was strongly connected, under the authority of heaven claimed by Ellen White, with apostasy, damnation, perdition. After rejecting adventism, it remains for the former to fight with his former beliefs, with fears, with doubts. there are formers adventists who returned to their previous faith just to escape the sense of guilt for rejecting the “true faith”. The solution is to become firmly established in the truth of the gospel, the doubts will disappear.

One of the objective of the FAF is to prevent transitioning adventists becoming again adventists. The FAF objective is to help people came to be fully persuaded that their decision of leaving adventism was a step in the right direction. And this is the most positive aspect of FAF, which was of tremendous help for me when I started my transition. I received clearer views regarding the gospel and also I met with friends who helped me in this path which for is a very lonely road. Our relatives, our friends, are opposed to this decision, and this magnifies the doubts and fears that you left the “truth”.

There are two ways in which somebody can be kept from returning to error: by magnifying the truth, presenting a clearer view of truth (and contrasting it with the error), or by magnifying the error (and using the truth for the sake of magnifying the error). Usually these two methods lie close enough to each other, but in time people will become more comfortable with one of them.

The problem is that magnifying the truth is keeping the focus on the right path, to the truth, but magnifying the error is changing the focus on error, with truth being somehow in the background. People coming together in this enterprise will be soon united around what they consider to be the error, and the truth becomes secondary. And because the truth becomes secondary, the accuracy of their positions suffers. With the process of magnifying error comes the danger of exaggeration, and is no wonder that at one point, the credibility is lost.

They are not bad people, they are trying hard to protect themselves and those who they are loving from the danger of embracing the errors of adventism, but they will loose credibility if they overstate their case. I was in their place and I know some of the motivations which are shaping their mentality. I’m not proud of sharing in this mentality, but I understand their feelings.

Gabriel

Welcome Carol aka foofighter,

Thank-you for sharing your story with us. I think your experience mirrors many who join, and then leave Adventism. The dissonance you felt when the truth about Ellen White’s borrowing became common knowledge is the same as many of us that were born into the church felt. Looking back at it now, I often wonder, how could I have been so gullible to just accept what I was taught without questioning. I think all who leave wonder the same thing.
I think the whole Ellen White aspect of Adventism has not been carefully analyzed by most in Adventism, we never questioned it. It was something that we grew up accepting as we did not know anything different. It was only upon reading Scripture with an open mind, that it finally dawned on me that the freedom and joy I saw there, was not what I found in Ellen White’s writing.

You spoke of deception. I think you are right, in that the deception about Ellen White continues to the highest levels of the Adventist Church. Continued uses of her authority is really the only thing that holds the church together. Why else to you think there is a renewed, and continuing push to get her books into the hands of all Adventists. Why else do you think they are targeting children in that promotion. Even though a few like Steven Chavez have suggested the church become sola scriptura, the books and the myth continue to be pushed and propagated. It is my firm belief that it is Ellen White and her use that continues to be the big stick that controls the lives of most Adventists. Those in the Power positions of authority in the Adventist church know this, and will never allow her role to be diminished.

Again welcome Carol.

My two cents worth,

Randy

Gabriel, my good brother.

Thank-you for your wonderful post and explanation. I think you are so right in that sometimes the focus becomes more on the error than on the truth.

Recognition of error, should point to truth.

I can understand also that when the error is great, people can get bogged down in its analysis and implications.

Thank-you again for your thoughts, and I hope you found the books helpful.

Randy

Carol, I also want to welcome you to the forum.  I think your points are valid and your experience is evidence of the problems that exist in Adventism or any religious system relying upon a non-biblical author as a “continuing and authoritative source of truth”.  I also agree with what Randy said about Ellen White being used to keep people in the church together.  For myself, when I finally could not reconcile Ellen White with the Bible, I saw the unique doctrines of Adventism begin to unravel.  Without her influence, there’s really no significant reason to avoid being united with the body of Christ, whether inside or outside of Adventism.

We all have our stories that either brought us into or out of the church.  I think we need to be cautious about making our stories normative for others.  In other words, my story will be different from everyone else’s, and I need to be careful about fitting everyone else into my way of thinking.  This is the danger we must avoid when leaving the church or perhaps even in making the decision to stay in it.  There is no formula for staying or leaving.

Stan said on the other thread that John MacArthur’s church does not encourage “former” ministries of any type so as to discourage a “former” mindset.  I believe this is healthy, even though I acknowledge that groups like FAF do help people who have suffered in the Adventist church or who are having a difficult time transitioning out of it.  It’s a fine line, however, between receiving support with the goal of moving beyond it and support with the (perhaps unintended) goal of dwelling on it.

I think of the apostle Paul, who renounced everything he had in Judaism, suffering tremendously at the hands of his fellow Jews.  Importantly, we do not see him forming support groups or bitterly complaining of his past, instead we see him glorying in the gospel and cheerfully enduring hardship so that his fellow Jews could hear the good news and receive Christ.  This does not mean support groups don’t have a function, it just means that the goal of a support group should be to get people to a place where they no longer need it and are fully integrated into the body of Christ, or even better, to a place where they can begin sharing the good news with those in the group they have left.

We can learn so much by studying the transformation that took place in the life of the apostle Paul.  For a man to go from killing Christians to being beaten (and ultimately himself killed) for the sake of Christ–even to the point of wishing that he could die so his Hebrew brothers and sisters could be saved (Romans 9:3)–is beyond comprehension.  Philippians 3:4-11 captures the magnitude of the change wrought in Paul’s life.

And Paul doesn’t stop there, but he continues, saying: “Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you.” (Philippians 3:12-15 ESV)

I suggest that it is important for all of us, no matter where we are in our walk with Christ, to press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Looking ahead, we, like Paul, can endure a multitude of hardships and our past will be but a speck on the timeline extending to eternity in the presence of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Greg

It seems that we are moving away from the topic on this forum. It seems we are either criticizing FAF or speaking on the ‘dangers’ of Adventism (though that to me is quite a fatalistic and overexaggerated stance. I know some would disagree with me but anyway).

One problem I had that I forgot to comment on before are the ‘Anonymous’ tactics of those who are unwilling to put their name forward but drop their bombs and leave. What was Jeremy so afraid of that he couldn’t sign his real name to his diatribe?

Perhaps we have exhausted the supposed problem with the SDA view on the Trinity? I would like to see the differences between most Christian definitions of the Trinity according to their creed. If the SDA view is so much different, then perhaps someone could point it out to those on FAF so they could spend their energies fighting real issues....like the erroneous doctrine of eternal torment.

Posted anonymously by: Rick (aka Ric_b)

[quote author="guibox"]One problem I had that I forgot to comment on before are the ‘Anonymous’ tactics of those who are unwilling to put their name forward but drop their bombs and leave.

We agree. Must be a blue moon. I think that transparency provides the best integrity. We each knew who the other was here immediately. I like that.

Perhaps the ‘Anonymous’ tactics are just a left-over from when they participated in Revelation Seminars.

What I personally found most useful about FAF was having a place to discuss the ups and downs of my search for a new church and to discuss the disappointment of having people that I thought were good friends and would understand (even if they didn’t agree) refuse to even talk with me. (and I never confronted or challenged a single one of them about their beliefs).

Those who leave, particularly lifers who fully bought into everything SDA (I think you would use the term ubers) aren’t all the different from some of the new converts to SDAism. They are so certain that everyone else isn’t saved unless they accept exactly the same beliefs that they have discovered. And the risk alienating more people than they convince. It doesn’t mean that they are bad people.

[quote author="Ric_b"]
Those who leave, particularly lifers who fully bought into everything SDA (I think you would use the term ubers) aren’t all the different from some of the new converts to SDAism. They are so certain that everyone else isn’t saved unless they accept exactly the same beliefs that they have discovered. And the risk alienating more people than they convince. It doesn’t mean that they are bad people.

Rick, this is a very insightful comment!  I admit I’ve been guilty of behaving this way myself and probably all of us have.  None of us is immune to believing we have perfect theological understanding, nor are we immune to the pride that goes along with believing this.

The thing that worries me on these forums (FAF or RevivalSermons are good examples) is the desire to sustain the illusion that everyone is in perfect agreement on every doctrinal issue.  For example, the Sabbath comes up time and again on FAF.  The prevailing viewpoint is that one must willfully “break” the Sabbath in order to truly “follow” Jesus.  It has been said that one is still “in bondage” if they have not gone against their conscience by abandoning the Sabbath to follow Jesus.  This teaching goes uncontested because those who disagree either get shouted down by a chorus of voices, or when that fails, their posting privileges are taken away.  This “selection” of people who agree with the prevailing viewpoint keeps forum members believing the myth that they have resolved the issue.

Along these lines, someone recently gave downright bad advice to a caring husband who is searching for answers: “God is leading you–and He is also asking you to take your appointed role as the spiritual leader and to make choices [to stop your practice of keeping the Sabbath] for the sake of Jesus, not for the sake of appeasing your wife’s anger”.  The person making this statement is presuming to speak for God about someone she doesn’t even know, without the wife there to participate in the discussion.  Yikes!

The latest stance on the Trinity doctrine and the belief that Adventists worship a demon are just the next steps down the same road.

No, the people making these statements are not bad people, but they are coming to bad conclusions, giving bad advice, and the lack of transparency and accountability is not healthy.

Greg

One of the problems with Jeremy’s approach to the Trinity doctrine is his overemphasis of the truth that God is indeed One, but, in this oneness there are also three distinct persons, and there is an interaction in the godhead. The latter part is downplayed in Jeremy’s definitions.

I clearly remember one time where Jeremy even attacked a non-SDA theologian and even Colleen had to come on and correct him a little.

The reality is that on the cross, Jesus did become entirely separated from His Father, and it was this SEPARATION that allowed Christ to taste the second death, and to suffer this death for all believers.

Also Christ prayed to His Heavenly Father while on earth.

In Heaven, Christ still lives to make intercession for us, and keeps on cleansing us and this is going on before the Father’s throne.

Jeremy, in essence, has accused a lot of folks of teaching Tri-theism, when they are really not. At least I was taught in Adventist schools that we worship one God in three persons. The Bible definitions do not go beyond acknowledging this fact. I was baptized by my Adventist missionary grandfather in the Trinitarian formula of Matthew 28:19.

Gabriel made an excellent point above, if a person was baptized by this formula, does this mean that a person was necessarily baptized into a Satanic Cult of some kind, and has to be rebaptized?

Again, I agree, Adventists are guilty of some faulty definitions and terminology with regard to the Trinity, but so is a lot of Christendom sloppy on these issues.

When the evangelical church is openly embracing Modalists such as TD Jakes, and Philips, Craig, and Dean, where the existent of a co-existent eternal trinity is denied, then the emphasis of the Proclamation article is misplaced.

The object of the Proclamation! article is not to have a constructive conversation with Adventists on the Trinity,(which is much needed), but the object and the clear agenda of the authors, as stated on their own web site, is to hit Adventists over the head claiming they worship a different Jesus. I believe the publishers are going to be very sorry they published this article, and they may be shooting themselves in the foot. It is my prayer that they will realize this before they mail the hard copy of the magazine out.

Stan