Hello Deacon

Thanks for the kind words regarding true Christians within the SDA church.  We (in the SDA fellowship) who believe in the gospel of Christ and His Righteousness do not subscribe to or believe in any dispensational or legalistic soteriology.  In fact, our understanding of the covenants is not confined to any sequential, dispensational unfolding of human history, including the eschatology of last day events. The New or Everlasting Covenant (dikaiosunae) has been in the Mind of God from everlasting. 

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has crowned us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms in Christ;
Eph 1:4 even as, in His love, He chose us as His own in Christ before the creation of the world, that we might be holy and without blemish in His presence.

Soteriology is the study of salvation. The word comes from two Greek terms: soter, meaning “savior,” and logos, meaning “word”, “reason”, or “principle”.  Soteriology that is honest with Scripture reveals that, as you rightly said, anyone who believes in Jesus as their Lord and Savior and has faith in Him only for their salvation are true Christians.  Thats it in a nutshell.  The unfolding of prophecy in the final days of earth’s history, whether from traditional evangelical teachings, SDA teachings, or any other professed Christian school of thought is irrelevant to the basic premise of our salvation in Christ being that what we do with the Gift of Christ our Righteousness that was given to us at infinite cost to the Father, determines our eternal destiny.

My questions regarding the “final generation” are simple.  Will there be a separation of the faithful from the unfaithful, (sheep from the goats, good fish from the bad fish) in a universal sense just before the actual Parousia?

Is there a time span of short duration that will reveal to the onlooking universe just before Jesus returns, a corporate group of people who “follow the Lamb wherever He goes”?

Is there a definite cut off of grace at a certain point in time future because the gospel will have been intelligently and lovingly revealed to all humankind giving all the inhabitants of this world with the ability to reason and choose an opportunity to exercise the measure of faith that has been given to every man to either receive or reject the free gift of salvation in Christ alone?

I really do not see the validity of your statement saying that the SDA view of the “final generation” has anything to do with dispensational or legalistic soteriology.

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

I submit that the unfolding of eschatological events leading up to Jesus’ appearance has no dispensational or legalistic connotations whatsoever and if they do, they need to be re-evaluated and then taught correctly in light of the gospel.

Blessings,

Aeoleanharp

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Thanks

Aeoleanharp--

You make a more objective statement of eschatology than is presented in public evangelism out of either the Southern Union or the PowerPoint programming of the Oregon Conference. Nor does your analysis track with that of Herbie Douglass on “Why Jesus Waits.”.

A “Final Perfect Generation” is by definition legalistic.
A division of Church history into segments on the basis of the Seven Churches of Revelation is by definition dispensational. The sum is that while the SDA Church is not classically dispensational neither is it classically convenantual. By any reading of its “Prophetic” literature and its evangelical outreach programming it is Triumphalistic. Saying that does not condemn its adherents only the core of its stated uniqueness and its treatment of those who disagree. I love Adventists I do not agree with some of Adventism’s key theological positions. Please stick with your understanding. It is far more open than traditional statements. 

Thanks for the reply Deacon.

You say: {A “Final Perfect Generation” is by definition legalistic.) Can you explain what you mean?  God is the One perfecting the saints...it is His doing....are you calling that legalistic? 

Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Please note verses 12 and 13

A final generation is not necessarily a perfect generation in the complete sense of the word.  Absolute perfection takes place only after it is conferred upon both the resurrected dead and the living saints when Jesus returns (1 Thess 4:16,17 and 1 Cor 15:51-54).  The stature of the fullness of Christ refers to character, not human nature.  Even those who, by the grace of God alone, walk in perfect character conformity to the will of God are still encumbered by the fallen human nature.  That fallen human nature is at enmity with God and must experience death...it cannot be changed, only replaced with the glorified humanity reserved for us in Christ, at the Second Coming.

SDA’s believe that there will be a final generation that has reached that full maturity..."the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.” These are they that will be translated (made immortal, incorruptible) at the Parousia.

Again my question is, how can the work of the Holy Spirit, completely God’s work, in bringing the saints to “the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,” be construed as legalistic?

Now regarding dispensationalism, my understanding is soteriological.....not in the unfolding of prophetic events whether from a preterist, futurist, or historicist perspective.  Proponents of dispensational salvation teach that according to different historical periods (Adam to Moses, Moses to Christ, Christ to the end of time) people are saved by different means.  This is erroneous in that any and all who experience the fullness of salvation will experience it through faith alone, by grace alone, through Christ alone....any and all includes those who in absolute futility attempt to earn or merit salvation by lawkeeping, or any other means.  Any and all who are victims of legalism or the more subtle galatianism need to understand the gospel and receive and experience the freedom Jesus has promised.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.  As I said, I am a missionary among all people including Seventh-day Adventists.

God bless you!

Aeoleanharp

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

[quote author="aeoleanharp"] My questions regarding the “final generation” are simple.  Will there be a separation of the faithful from the unfaithful, (sheep from the goats, good fish from the bad fish) in a universal sense just before the actual Parousia? Is there a time span of short duration that will reveal to the onlooking universe just before Jesus returns, a corporate group of people who “follow the Lamb wherever He goes”?

I doubt that many would deny this. However, the problem comes that basically the interpretation of this according to SDA thought is that the ‘faithful’ who ‘follows the Lamb wherever He may go” usually means ‘those who do this and don’t do this on Sabbath, who strictly follow SOP and follow all the golden standards perfectly.

IOW, strict, faithful, untainted by Babylon, dyed in the wool SDAs fall in this category.

Aeoleanharp

Please you quote Scripture with which I agree. You don’t reference SDA Spirit of Prophecy on the Final Generation or Herbie Douglass or M. L. Andreasen--It is that position and the Statement of Fundamental Beliefs that twist the plain word of Scripture into a legalistic framework. Let you and I stand together on the words of Paul. Thanks be to God. Tom

Thanks guibox for the reply.  What is SOP?  If you are referring to the writings of EGW alone as SOP I cannot agree.  The Spirit of God Who is the communicator of the Spirit of Prophecy is not and cannot be confined to merely one person.  Was EGW inspired by the Holy Spirit to write and express much of what is recorded from her pen and verbal testimony?  Of this I have no doubt.  What about others who have lived and are still living?  There are many others who have been used by God to reveal the Spirit of Prophecy...of this I have no doubt.  Those who have cloistered themselves into believing that the Bible seen ONLY in the writings of Ellen White are in for a very rude awakening....some not so rude if they would but give up pre-conceived opinions based purely upon reading EGW alone and formulating doctrinal beliefs without referring to the Scriptures as the final measuring stick of revealed truth.  EGW herself said with much emphasis that her recorded writings should not be used exclusively to formulate doctrines but insisted that the Bible ALONE should be thus used.  If EGW were alive today I believe she would be constantly rebuking the deluded ones who have elevated her and her writings to the status of infallibility.  I know the folk you are talking about.  The amazing thing I have found is that when you can present your position clearly and powerfully from a pure Biblical perspective, even those who are thus deluded cannot counter or reprove the truth thus expressed EVEN WHEN they still, in their own prejudiced minds, disagree with that truth.  I have experienced this MANY times when preaching or teaching in their presence.  Our job is to witness the truth...the Holy Spirit will do the convicting.  Let us glory in that His truth will triumph despite the array of error that has been preached and taught against it.....from within SDAdventism as well as the rest of the professed Christian world.  Sola Scriptura must be seen as the final and ultimate measuring stick of truth....they who leave that platform may well be flirting with cunningly devised fables that will ultimately lead to the lake of fire.

Blessings upon you,

Aeoleanharp

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Aeoleanharp

You and I agree on Sola Scriptura. Never-the-less you appear to insist that the offical postion of the SDA Church’s understanding of the Seven Churches and the Final Generation is built on Scripture.  It is not. It is built upon E.G.White and a few “acceptable” “Theologians” who have expanded upon her opinions.  If you accept Sola Scriptura you cannot accept: G.C. page 623, 649 or Herbie Douglass’s comment that Jesus waits until He is finally vidicated by the Final Generation. Which is a denial of the necessary and sufficient life, death, resurrection, and Priesthood of Jesus Christ. You use Scripture like a good Reformed Christian--good for you. Tom

Hi Aeoleanharp,

Thanks again for joining our discussion.

You wrote:

“SDA’s believe that there will be a final generation that has reached that full maturity..."the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.” These are they that will be translated (made immortal, incorruptible) at the Parousia.

Again my question is, how can the work of the Holy Spirit, completely God’s work, in bringing the saints to “the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,” be construed as legalistic?”
--------------------------------------------------------

What you wrote above is correct, but it is not the traditional SDA understanding as the Deacon has pointed out. As you quoted all those great passages from the apostle Paul, it is also true, that the apostles believed they were living in the very last days. Paul was exhorting the saints living in his day, to work to the perfecting of character. We now have evidence that shows that Revelation may have been written before AD 70, and that this book was also written to the first century saints describing the awful conditions that surrounded the capture of Jerusalem, with a final consummation of the book coming at the end of time. But it is possible that Nero was the antiChrist, and that most of the book of Revelation had already been fulfilled by AD 70, so that the gospel of John was probably written after AD 70, as well as the book of Hebrews, and also likely the book of 1 John, where John clearly says that we are living in the last hour.

Jude 3 says to contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints. Romans 13 clearly stated at the time, that the second coming was expected at any time, and the same goes for the epistles of Peter.

So, in light of the book of Hebrews declaring that Christ went into the holiest at his ascension, then what room is there for any 1844 message, where Christ stands up from his symbolic sitting position at the right hand of God, and go from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place in 1844 to complete another work of atonement?

This theology leads to the idea advanced by the likes of Dennis Priebe, that since 1844, we are living in a special day of atonement, where there must be a special generation that must reach sinless perfection, and, in fact, Christ can’t come until a certain group of people reflect perfectly the character of Christ.

This is where the so-called health message, as Priebe freely admits (see Priebe’s article at the top of this thread) and vegetarianism, and abstaining from wine, when now it is clearly admitted that the Bible does not prohibit the legitimate use of wine, all of these artificial means of holiness and appearance of asceticism (Colossians 2) is being pushed as a way to somehow become holier, and thus become fit for translation.

These are concepts which are entirely foreign to scripture, and would not be a belief system within Adventism, unless Ellen White clearly taught this.

So, it must be diffiult for you trying to be an SDA in the background of these teachings. But it looks like you are doing an excellent job of being a witness where you are called, and my prayers go out to you, Aeoleanharp.

Stan

Posted anonymously by: Bob_2

On ATomorrow.com, some have tried to insist that Covenant and New Covenant Theology is Dispensationist. A change does not make one a Dispensationalist. A Dispensationalist is defined as:

“DISPENSATIONALISM
Definition:
Dispensationalism is a system of theology whose adherents strive for a consistently literal interpretation of the Bible. It makes careful distinctions between different periods of God’s progressive dealings with mankind, and between His plans for national Israel and for the New Testament Church. Dispensationalism is currently the most common interpretive framework for lay-level evangelicals in the United States. “

http://faith.propadeutic.com/dispens.html

Posted anonymously by: Newsman

Hi,

Aeoleanharp wrote:

True believers in the gospel of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, to the glory of God alone are growing in number among Seventh-day Adventists.

Just wanted to affirm what Aeoleanharp reports about Adventists and the Gospel. I work for the Adventist Church and have never been told that my views are unacceptable within the church. Adventism seems to be a microcosm of the Christian world with many different views.

Newsman,

thank-you for your comments and welcome to 4TG. I am glad you feel comfortable enough to join in.

I think there is, like you stated, some in Adventism that believe and understand the whole Gospel and the peace and freedom that it brings.

Since you have not shared any of your views with us, it is difficult to know whether any of them might be different than the 28 fundamentals. If you hold belief in all of those, then I doubt you would ever be told your views were unacceptable.

However, if you start letting it be known that you no longer believe that the Seventh Day Sabbath is still binding on Christians, or you deny Ellen White is a prophet, or that the Investigative Judgment doctrine is not Scriptural, I suspect you might be needing to seek employment elsewhere. And depending in which microcosm you live in, you might also need to looking for membership in another church.

Again welcome and feel free to speak your heart,

Randy

Hello Stan

It has been a while since I have had the time to join in with you and all at FTG.  I will reply to some of your comments here.  I will bold your comments for clarity in our conversation

Jude 3 says to contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints. Romans 13 clearly stated at the time, that the second coming was expected at any time, and the same goes for the epistles of Peter.

There is no doubt that the apostles, including Paul, the greatest theological contributor to the NT, believed that the return of Jesus was immanent.  They were wrong in terms of our concept “soon” as a short duration of time.  Unlike the “set in stone” concept of Calvinistic Blueprint Theology that believes in a pre-determined, actual “date” or “day and hour” that God has predestined, I believe in a dynamic relationship between we (the fallen and sinful/yet redeemed in Christ human race) that also makes the “day and the hour” of Jesus’s return dynamic and therefore not predetermined.  That is primarily why Jesus said that “no man knows the day and the hour except the Father.” Now because He is omniscient, He knows everything including the precise day and hour in the chronological unfolding of history.  He reasons from an eternal perspective that is not limited to or encumbered by the “sin problem glitch” called time.  We are not privy to that perspective except He reveal glimpses of it to us according to His infinite wisdom.  Therefore it is not only possible but I believe strongly that the specific date of the return of Jesus is not punctilliar but also dynamic in a linear sense of time and quite frankly is associated with what God is doing in the preparation of the lives of His true followers leading up to the event.  The Holy Spirit is working as the great Refiner and Teacher in all believers and He is preparing a people that will indeed be “without spot or blemish” in terms of a faith maturity that will perfectly reflect the faith of Jesus Himself.  This is the maturation of the wheat prior to the great harvest.  The Divine sickle cannot begin to reap until the harvest is fully ready.  (see Revelation 14:14-16)

So, in light of the book of Hebrews declaring that Christ went into the holiest at his ascension, then what room is there for any 1844 message, where Christ stands up from his symbolic sitting position at the right hand of God, and go from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place in 1844 to complete another work of atonement?

The “shadow” symbolism of the ancient sanctuary type points forward to the reality Sanctuary (Who is Christ).  Physical buildings or physical movements from one “stationary” position/room to another are not what saves.  It is only the shed blood of Christ (His holy and perfectly righteous life laid down in death) that saves anyone.  Therefore the actual movements from one “compartment” to another in the typical day of Atonement is only symbolic when considering the Reality - Christ and Him crucified.  1844 is significant in terms of the unfolding fulfillment of prophecy in that something of great significance did indeed occur in the eschatological sequence of events leading up to the 2nd coming of Jesus.  What occurred?  The beginning of the reality of what is referred to as the anti-typical day of atonement which is not a literal 24 hour day, but a period of time when the “harvest” is being made “ripe.” If you look at Revelation 6: 12-14, we are positioned between versus 13 and 14.  In that space is where the anti-typical day of atonement is unfolding.  The anti typical day of atonement is not the perfect, finished atonement mentioned in Romans 5:11.  That atonement is objective and stands as the bedrock foundation of the salvation of men.  The anti typical day of atonement that began in 1844 will not be fulfilled until after the 1000 year millennium, the resurrection and destruction of the wicked, and will end at the establishment of the New Heavens and New Earth.

This theology leads to the idea advanced by the likes of Dennis Priebe, that since 1844, we are living in a special day of atonement, where there must be a special generation that must reach sinless perfection, and, in fact, Christ can’t come until a certain group of people reflect perfectly the character of Christ.

This is where the so-called health message, as Priebe freely admits (see Priebe’s article at the top of this thread) and vegetarianism, and abstaining from wine, when now it is clearly admitted that the Bible does not prohibit the legitimate use of wine, all of these artificial means of holiness and appearance of asceticism (Colossians 2) is being pushed as a way to somehow become holier, and thus become fit for translation.

These are concepts which are entirely foreign to scripture, and would not be a belief system within Adventism, unless Ellen White clearly taught this.

So, it must be diffiult for you trying to be an SDA in the background of these teachings. But it looks like you are doing an excellent job of being a witness where you are called, and my prayers go out to you, Aeoleanharp.

Thanks for your prayers, Stan.  My views are very distinct form those of Dennis Priebe in that he is fully Arminian in his soteriological perspective.  I am not Arminian nor Calvinist in my perspective. Neither am I universalist (although I am sometimes accused falsely as such).  Not all men are going to live forever.  That is part of the heresy of universalism. When I have time I will post a sermon outline clearly defining my salvation perspective.

Blessings upon you and all in this most excellent forum.

Aeoleanharp

Posted anonymously by: dwayne

I must say that I am sure glad when the fruit of sdaism is so plainly revealed. Truth mixed with error. The inevitable results… error… and more error. God, however, is not the author of such confusion. As a whole, this is nothing more than a piece of fiction and an ill wind of doctrine that the Scriptures warn believers about.

[quote author="aeoleanharp"] The anti typical day of atonement is not the perfect, finished atonement mentioned in Romans 5:11.

Yet another day of atonement? Horse hockey.

Aeoleanharp, you made some comments which I take issue with, but nevertheless I thank you for sharing your viewpoint with us.

First, you said that God is waiting for the perfection of His people before returning, citing Revelation 14:14-16 as evidence for this. Yet this passage says nothing about God waiting for a people to be “without spot or blemish” as a condition for his return.  No condition is given, just that “the harvest of the earth is fully ripe”.

The reference you made perhaps can be traced to Ephesians 5:25-27, which in context refers to the relationship of a husband to his wife as a parallel for how Christ relates to the church.

Like Paul, we can say today that these are the “last days”, because the second coming of Christ may occur at any time and without warning. Peter’s first epistle gives us more detail about this, and also gives reasons for the “delay” in Christ’s return:

But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! (2 Peter 3:8-12 ESV)

Notice the indicatives in this passage: 1) The way God interacts with time is different than the way we do, 2) God is patient with us, desiring our repentance, 3) Jesus will return like a “thief in the night"–it will be unexpected, 4) All things will be dissolved at the coming of Jesus.

Now for the imperative: we ought to be people of “holiness and godliness”. We do this, not to hasten the coming of Jesus or “prove” to the universe that a spotless people can stand without a mediator, but as a response to the promises he has given us in Scripture–that he will return to free us from this sinful world to spend eternity in fellowship with him.

[quote author="Aeoleanharp"]
The beginning of the reality of what is referred to as the anti-typical day of atonement which is not a literal 24 hour day, but a period of time when the “harvest” is being made “ripe.”

I’d like to find in my Bible where such a thing as an “anti-typical day of atonement” is mentioned and to learn exactly how this relates to the “once and for all” day of atonement on Calvary.  Aeoleanharp, Revelation 6:12-14 does not mention this “anti-typical day of atonement”, so it unfortunately does not support your assertion.  Also, I assume you use the traditional Adventist proof texts to support the significance of 1844, although differing with those in your church who believe the atonement is not yet complete. It seems this “anti-typical day of atonement” is a way to simultaneously believe in a completed atonement while holding onto some significance for 1844.

So much of these debates over end-time events appear to be constructed for the express purpose of supporting a particular denominational or prophetic viewpoint, all at the expense of preaching the simple gospel message to those who most need to hear it. For example, what is the real effect of knowing or not knowing about this so-called “anti-typical day of atonement”?  How does the knowledge (or lack thereof) of this doctrine impact the fact that I am a great sinner who needs a great Savior?

Aeoleanharp, even though we disagree, I wish you warmest blessings in Christ, the author and finisher of our faith.

Greg

Well Dwayne it seems that voicing a thought that is perceived as error is sometimes dealt with in here with some knee-jerk rudeness.  Be that as it may, unless a person is familiar with the concepts of Biblical typology where the plan of salvation was typified in object lessons and the ceremonial activities outlined in the Old Testament, the spiritual realities revealed in anti-typical fulfillment will not be discerned but will rather be trashed and dismissed as error.  To each his own as the saying goes.  Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

Aeoleanharp

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.