“But as the days of Noe were so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying, and giving in marriage, until the day tha Noe entered into the ark. And knew, not, until the flood came, and took them all away, so shall slso the coming of the Son of man be.” Matt. 25: 37-39
It seems that the degree of wickedness not the degree of “holiness” signals the return of the Son of man! Certainly it wasn’t for a lack of preaching by Noah--120 years nor His faith--to keep on building!

Rather than a “perfect” generation maybe we should be looking for an unregeneratable generation!

Unless of course, one would read the passage to mean, things were normal human activities right up to the end!

Either way, Our duty is proclaim Salvation in Jesus Christ alone. 

Posted anonymously by: dwayne

[quote author="aeoleanharp"]Well Dwayne it seems that voicing a thought that is perceived as error is sometimes dealt with in here with some knee-jerk rudeness.  Be that as it may, unless a person is familiar with the concepts of Biblical typology where the plan of salvation was typified in object lessons and the ceremonial activities outlined in the Old Testament, the spiritual realities revealed in anti-typical fulfillment will not be discerned but will rather be trashed and dismissed as error.  To each his own as the saying goes.  Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

Repented of by some, to their credit, the erroneous doctrine of 1844 and the IJ continues to wreak spiritual havoc on those babes in Christ who innocently place their trust in what they’ve been fed from the pulpits of sdaism. Broken cisterns will never satisfy a heart set on Jesus Christ.

Again, the fruit is evident. A false doctrine based on twisting Scripture to support an unrepentant mindset, still actively promoted by those who would deny Christ’s righteous fullfillment of the day of atonement, can only lead a follower to spiritual desparation and futility.

So that there’s no misunderstanding, I find your claim that ”The anti typical day of atonement is not the perfect, finished atonement mentioned in Romans 5:11” an offense to the Gospel. I believe that when a person is familiar with the concepts of Biblical typology they won’t make statements discounting the fulfillment of the day of atonement by Jesus Christ as witnessed and recorded by the faithful such as Paul. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned indeed.

Hi Aoleanharp,

I see you addressed a question to me, and I have not had any time to respond. I will try to get back to you soon.

However, even if we disagree, we welcome your insights and opinions. Hopefully we can all disagree agreeably, and have civil dialogue on these issues.

Blessings in Christ,

Stan

Thanks Greg for your kind disagreement. I will respond in like kindness for I believe we both are students in the never ending school of gospel enlightenment.

Greg writes
Aeoleanharp, you made some comments which I take issue with, but nevertheless I thank you for sharing your viewpoint with us.
First, you said that God is waiting for the perfection of His people before returning, citing Revelation 14:14-16 as evidence for this. Yet this passage says nothing about God waiting for a people to be “without spot or blemish” as a condition for his return. No condition is given, just that “the harvest of the earth is fully ripe”.
The reference you made perhaps can be traced to Ephesians 5:25-27, which in context refers to the relationship of a man to his wife as a parallel for how Christ relates to the church.

Aeoleanharp replies
You say that in Revelation 14:14-16 “no condition is given.”
Is not being “ripe” an absolute condition? Well then perhaps the disagreement is over what “ripe” really means. Is ripe “well kind of ripe, maybe a little green here or there” or is ripe, “fully ripened.” I say the latter. The Divine Harvester will know what “grapes” will be able to withstand the full glory of His personal appearance and will have prepared them for that unique moment in history to stand without being consumed in that revelation of Himself on that day. 2 Thess 2:8 and 2 Peter 3:10 The only ones that will be consumed in that blaze of glory will be those who have not received the gift of Christ and His robe of righteousness by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. The Parousia is a one time, unique event. Never before in the history of the fallen world has God’s full glory flooded the entire globe like it will then. What is wrong with believing that the condition of God’s people who are alive on the earth will truly be that of the 144,000 described in Revelation 14:1-5? Are you saying then that it is impossible for God to produce such a corporate group of people, even though Scripture says they will certainly exist and that just prior to the Parousia in Revelation 14:14-16?
Is the power of sin greater than the power of grace? It seems to me that those who think that God cannot produce such an amazing company who have conquered sin in their own lives completely (as per description of the 144,000) are also saying that sin’s power cannot really be completely conquered in the lives of the believers. Is that what you are professing Greg?

Greg writes
Like Paul, we can say today that these are the “last days”, because the second coming of Christ may occur at any time and without warning. Peter’s first epistle gives us more detail about this, and also gives reasons for the “delay” in Christ’s return:
Quote:
But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! (1 Peter 3:8-12 ESV)

Aeoleanharp replies:
Your reference above is not 1 Peter 3:8-12 but 2 Peter 3:8-12

Greg writes:
Notice the indicatives in this passage: 1) The way God interacts with time is different than the way we do, 2) God is patient with us, desiring our repentance, 3) Jesus will return like a “thief in the night"–it will be unexpected, 4) All things will be dissolved at the coming of Jesus.
Now for the imperative: we ought to be people of “holiness and godliness”. We do this, not to hasten the coming of Jesus or “prove” to the universe that a spotless people can stand without a mediator, but as a response to the promises he has given us in Scripture–that he will return to free us from this sinful world to spend eternity in fellowship with him.

Aeoleanharp replies:
I have never stated or implied that we do anything to “prove” to the universe that a spotless people can stand without a mediator. Where did you get that in what I have written? If you carefully search this thread of thought you will not find it. Sounds like you’re quoting something from EGWhite’s Great Controversy here although I don’t think it is there either. I do believe that God will demonstrate His power to produce such a people to prove that the power of grace is greater than the power of sin. God will do it through those who are willing through faith. The glory will be totally God’s....not man’s. It is part of the sealing process for the universe as a whole to witness God’s doing here that the sin problem will never rise again. Nahum 1:9
Aeoleanharp wrote:
The beginning of the reality of what is referred to as the anti-typical day of atonement which is not a literal 24 hour day, but a period of time when the “harvest” is being made “ripe.”

Greg writes
I’d like to find in my Bible where such a thing as an “anti-typical day of atonement” is mentioned and to learn exactly how this relates to the “once and for all” day of atonement on Calvary. Aeoleanharp, Revelation 6:12-14 does not mention this “anti-typical day of atonement”, so it unfortunately does not support your assertion. Also, I assume you use the traditional Adventist proof texts to support the significance of 1844, although differing with those in your church who believe the atonement is not yet complete. It seems this “anti-typical day of atonement” is a way to simultaneously believe in a completed atonement while holding onto some significance for 1844.
So much of these debates over end-time events appear to be constructed for the express purpose of supporting a particular denominational or prophetic viewpoint, all at the expense of preaching the simple gospel message to those who most need to hear it. For example, what is the real effect of knowing or not knowing about this so-called “anti-typical day of atonement”? How does the knowledge (or lack thereof) of this doctrine impact the fact that I am a great sinner who needs a great Savior?

Aeoleanharp replies:
The significance for me Greg is that as the ancient Hebrews prepared for the cleansing of the camp in the typical day of atonement, I too am motivated in recognizing the anti-type of the same, to consecrate my life by allowing the Holy Spirit to continue in His refining process believing that it brings joy to His heart knowing that there are those who indeed are believing in His promises and preparing for that Great Day. Who knows but Him if we will indeed be a part of that amazing company that will “follow the Lamb wherever He goes,” as a demonstration of God’s power to refute the devil’s assertion that we can not overcome, even as He (Jesus) overcame sin when He was here over 200 years ago. Here is a great promise to consider regarding this: Rev 3:21 As far as my assurance of salvation is concerned, I have that assurance not because of my belief in the anti-typical day of atonement but for the simple fact that the gospel truth declares that I have been accepted in the beloved and rejoicing in the faith of Jesus that God has thus received me I have no doubt about going to heaven. In fact why should I ever worry about getting to heaven when IN HIM I am already there? Ephesians 2:6 My belief in the anti-typical day of atonement is a joyful one, not encumbered by the “fear of my name coming up in the judgment” psychological manipulation used by misguided and sometimes downright evil proponents of that teaching. There is much beauty and truth in the teaching of the anti-typical day of atonement when one see it from the perspective of the foundational atonement that was accomplished fully and perfectly at the cross.

I will post for the forum a brief explanation of Biblical typology. Please note the use of the adjective Biblical. Typology can be misconstrued just as the Scriptures can through eisogesis, non contextual wresting, etc. The same standards for honest and fair hermeneutics must be applied using the Bible alone as the absolute standard of truth.
Need to get off this computer...have some “tents to make.”

Greg writes:
Aeoleanharp, even though we disagree, I wish you warmest blessings in Christ, the author and finisher of our faith.
Greg

My warm reciprocation of the same, Greg.
Aeoleanharp
Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Hi Aeoleanharp,

You have written so much that I just wish I had time to respond to. But with my wife’s illness and responsibilities of being a full time hospital based physician makes it difficult. But there is one statement of your which I would like to respond to where you wrote:

“In fact why should I ever worry about getting to heaven when IN HIM I am already there? Ephesians 2:6 My belief in the anti-typical day of atonement is a joyful one, not encumbered by the “fear of my name coming up in the judgment” psychological manipulation used by misguided and sometimes downright evil proponents of that teaching. There is much beauty and truth in the teaching of the anti-typical day of atonement when one see it from the perspective of the foundational atonement that was accomplished fully and perfectly at the cross.”
----------------------------------------------------------

Aeolean, I agree with this quote of yours fully, but I am sitting here scratching my head as to how the above fits in with other statements you have made. But when you say:

“fear of my name coming up in the judgment” psychological manipulation used by misguided and sometimes downright evil proponents of that teaching”
-------------------------------------------------
This teaching is found in the Great Controversy by Ellen White in the chapter on the IJ. I used to have nightmares after reading Ellen White on this topic. So, is Ellen White guilty of this psychological manipulation? And, if so, how can you really honestly support a church which has never really been founded on the pure gospel of salvation?

I appreciate the fact that you say that you are an evangelical SDA, but unfortunately, I am starting to see in too many cases how this is almost becoming an oxymoron, but I don’t say this about you.

My memories of an evangelical SDA are with Desmond Ford, and Smuts Van Rooyen,as I had the privilege of at least being acquainted with these men. Ford, I believe would part company over with you over this idea of an anti-typical day of atonement starting in 1844. The day of atonement occurred in AD 31 at the cross.

I would also have problems with a lot of hermeneutics related to the book of Revelation. There has been some very recent credible research by conservative scholars reagarding the dating of the book of Revelation. There is a good argument to be made that this book was actually written before AD 70, and was largely an apocalyptic account of what went on in AD 70. (See RC Sproul’s book called “The Last Days According To Jesus") This book was written so it had meaning for the early church. Nero was likely the antichrist. There was a cataclysmic destruction of Jerusalem.

There is also no doubt that Revelation also speaks of the final parousia, but because of a lot of figurative symbols, I guess I have a hard time trying to make doctrine from Revelation. This is illustrated by deducing a doctrine of eternal torment from the book of Revelation, where Rev. 14 says that ‘the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever’--if you take that literally you might be able to come up with this doctrine, but the clearer teachings in Malachi 3 and 2 Peter 2 and 3 would suggest against this doctrine.

So, likewise, why not go to the gospel of John, and to the epistles to get the solid doctrines of salvation? A plain reading of Hebrews 8-10 would clearly contradict any idea of a second apartment ministry starting in 1844, or a more revisionist view as you are suggesting.

There is no evidence that Paul was suggesting that Christians living near the very end of time would be any holier than Christians living in the first century. Since Jesus’ ascension, Christ was seated at the right hand of God ‘waiting for His enemies to become his footstool’.

I am amazed at the number of ways that evangelical SDAs try to find to somehow justify 1844. William Miller gave up on the calculations of 1844 and Daniel 8:14, and repented of this, so why can’t SDAs give up on these ideas that have no support in scripture? (I think I know the answer already--this is the foundational doctrine of SDA).

Aeolean, I would just want to ask you if you could come up with the idea that something happened in 1844, and an antitypical day of atonement started then if you didn’t have Ellen White? Are these teachings something that you could come up with if you had no background in Adventism?

Again, I appreciate getting your email newsletters, and I appreciate your Christian spirit, and if Adventism had more folks like you, they would definitely be better off.

Stan

[quote author="Stan"] I would also have problems with a lot of hermeneutics related to the book of Revelation. There has been some very recent credible research by conservative scholars reagarding the dating of the book of Revelation. There is a good argument to be made that this book was actually written before AD 70, and was largely an apocalyptic account of what went on in AD 70. (See RC Sproul’s book called “The Last Days According To Jesus") This book was written so it had meaning for the early church. Nero was likely the antichrist. There was a cataclysmic destruction of Jerusalem.

I’m beginning to see a lot more merit in this view than in the traditional SDA teaching.  The latter is simply too speculative, too distant from the actual hearers of John’s letter(s), and ultimately self-serving. Like Daniel and the apocalyptic chapters of the synoptic gospels, Revelation seems to use some upcoming cataclysmic event as a parable of sorts for the end of the world. Reading the thread on Daniel 11 at R/S confirms this as the linkages being made there between the events and actors in that chapter with their supposed current day fulfillments are really just beyond the pale.

For me the fact that Revelation (or any book in the bible for that matter) does NOT mention the destruction of Jerusalem is a HUGE issue for it being written in the late 90’s AD. I actually see this as good evidence that ALL the books in the bible were written prior to 70 AD.

Imagine writing about New York City today and not mentioning 9/11!

[quote author="Stan"] There is no evidence that Paul was suggesting that Christians living near the very end of time would be any holier than Christians living in the first century. Since Jesus’ ascension, Christ was seated at the right hand of God ‘waiting for His enemies to become his footstool’.

I’ll admit I think the idea that mankind needs to be perfected in order to enter into the heavenly kingdom makes a certain kind of sense to me. That is, I don’t find the historic SDA position on the IJ and the need for it, to be totally lacking in logic.

But I find very little evidence in the Bible that this is actually a central concern. That God is desiring a faithful people, yes. That God is consumed with making people perfect so they can be safe to save, no. And even were that to be the case, it’s not at all clear to me that the IJ gets you there. A record keeping system doesn’t purify.