[quote author="Stan"] There is a great book out there that I would like to recommend on this topic, and that is Michael Horton’s book called “Putting Amazing Back Into Grace”. The questions posed on this thread, as well as the Pelagian thread are really answered clearly and in easy to read style by Michael Horton. I have a few extra copies at home, so please email me at

A free book? Sold. I’ll send you my address.

Glenn, I agree. I’ve seen people attempt to downplay Paul because in their mind, he doesn’t harmonize with the synoptic gospels. On the flip side, I’ve seen people minimize the commands and obligations for believers found elsewhere in Scripture because of the way in which they interpret Paul’s writings (see 2 Peter 3:16).

The entire Bible is profitable for reproof, correction and training in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16). The Scripture in view when Paul was inspired to write this was the Old Testament.

I am thankful we’ve had these discussions over the past few days, because it has again helped me to see that Jesus’ words in synoptic gospels (and the whole redemption story in the Old Testament) are meant to simultaneously call sinners to repentance while admonishing Christians to live worthy of their calling. Being born again is simply the beginning of a long relationship with Christ where he will nurture, perfect, strengthen, and chasten us. In all, we have great cause for humility and joy, because it is his work, and he is mighty to save.

Greg

Since Stan is giving away books, anyone who wants a copy of Michael Horton’s “The Law of Perfect Freedom” should also send me their address--I’ll be happy to send a copy.

Greg

Not to wear this topic out, but I came across this passage from Hebrews this morning and I offer it for your consideration:

Hebrews 12:25

“See that you do not refuse Him who is speaking.  For if they (Israel) did not escape when they refused Him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject Him who warns us from heaven.”

I gather from all the verses Paul wrote/spoke, that he did not consider it inconsistent to speak both of already being saved as well as the potential for the human agent’s eventual rejection of that salvation, or else he would not have felt it necessary to warn his listeners of that potential. 

Posted anonymously by: Pastor Williams

Dear Glennspring, Glenn, Greg, Stan, Ane, and everyone:

Some time ago I said that I would explain my lack of participation in this string. The bottom line is that for the past couple of months we have been caught up in matters concerning the possibility of a move to the Chula Vista Church near San Diego, CA. That decision has now been made and we will indeed be moving. Up until last Thursday it was likely that we would move, but last Thursday the final decision was made by the Conference. We have already been house hunting and etc. Making things still more busy, I have also started flying lessons along with my 16 year old son.

I have read a bit of the present discussion and see it is proceeding into profitable territory. Of course, I especially appreciate Glennsprings latest contribution. But that is what you would expect:)

Now as much as I enjoy our exchanges, I am afraid that our move is going to make it too difficult for me to continue. I want each one to know that I truly appreciate your contributions, challenges, and passion. I ask you to forgive my shortcomings and for any harshness on my part. Most of all, I wand you to know that I look forward to meeting each one of you in the Kingdom.
Sincerely your brother in Jesus,
Pastor Bradley Williams

Dear Bradley Williams,

Just a personal comment, which you may not read until your move is finalized and you’re still helping your wife to look for the can opener! 

But as a former pastor who moved umpteen times, with four kids and some times including my mother and her things, the dog, fish, pet hamsters or guiny pig, and finally up to horses....I empathize with the tension you are facing.

I can only wish you a special package of God’s grace I believe He must have custom made to fit these situations where pastors move into a new district.

Hope you don’t have to take too many Tylinol.

Jess

Pastor Williams, may God bless you, and may you be sustained in Christ, persisting in faith because of His grace.

Even though we disagree in some key areas, you are welcome to check back in with us anytime.

Greg

Just wanted to wish everyone a happy October 22nd, the 163rd anniversary of when God began judging Christians by their works for salvation (at least according the SDA church).

Aaron

Do you think God has begun on the cases of the living yet?

I don’t mean to sound flip.......but if God could make the whole world and everything in it in 7 days..........why does it take so long to judge the people ? He knows already everything we’ve ever done....seems the books should be up to date.

DeeAnna,

I totally understand your comment and I appreciate your humble spirit in asking this important question. The standard answer to this from an Adventist perspective is that God needs to stage a trial of professed Christ-followers for the “heavenly intelligences” who need to be shown that He is fair in His judgments. The problem with this “theodicy” (as it is called), is that it finds no Scriptural support. Instead of arising out of simple Bible study, this teaching became necessary to support the interlocking teachings that grew out the 1844 “disappointment”. Instead of a picture of God who must be “justified” before the Universe, the Bible tells us that He is just to begin with, and that the cross was the greatest possible representation of His justice.

One of the most powerful passages in the Bible, Romans 3:21-26, shows that by sacrificing Himself for the sins of the world, God demonstrated His justice beyond a shadow of a doubt.

“But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it–the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.” (Romans 3:21-26 ESV)

What is particularly troubling about the Adventist view of God is the idea that He needs to be vindicated before His creation. This results in a diluted view of Jesus’ death on the cross, and a low view God’s holiness. What’s more, instead of highlighting our need for justification, the tables are turned and we become the judge of God.

There is more to say on this subject because this idea of God needing vindication is only the latest spin on the traditional investigative judgment doctrine, coming into fashion in recent years to make the older teaching more palatable.

If you’d like to read more on this topic, click here to see a previous thread where we discussed it, and as always, you’re welcome to ask more questions here.

Greg

[quote author="Aaron"]Just wanted to wish everyone a happy October 22nd, the 163rd anniversary of when God began judging Christians by their works for salvation (at least according the SDA church).

Aaron

Thanks Aaron,

I hope you had a great celebration!

Isn’t it so wonderful to have the true gospel that Jesus and the apostles taught?

Romans 8:1:

“There is NOW NO CONDEMNATION to those who are in Christ Jesus”

These words stand in judgment and in direct condemnation of the traditional IJ doctrine.

Soli Deo Gloria!

Stan

Greg, you have such a gift of explaining things. I hope that you are a teacher or minister. If not, you should be.

The Happy Oct. 22 is all in jest, isn’t it ?  I’m not sure I “get that”. Is that a joke ?

I am enjoying the discussions here very much, although much of it is too complex for me, but I have a lot better understanding of things than when I first arrived.

If I might say something:  Blogs are very much like sitting in Sabbath School where the definition of one word would take up the whole lesson time. That always turned me off and reminds me of my first impression of Adventism when I first became a member when it was all very intellectual with no real feel for the true spirit of Jesus ever being felt. I thought it was really sad when they would discuss disfellowshiping members because they had not yet become “perfect” enough to be a SDA.
I never really ever heard how Jesus loves you except in other churches.
There were a lot of in depth discussions of explaining prophetic days and all that...but I never really ever heard anyone say how Jesus had changed their life and I never really felt or saw warmth in the Adventist church.
I always thought that was sad. 

DeAnna,

Thank you for the kind words. I am neither a teacher nor a minister, but I am a sinner saved by the blood of Jesus whose mission it is to tell others about the good news. In this regard, I’m no different than any other Christian.

And yes, the Happy Oct. 22 was just Aaron and I having a little fun. It’s easy to laugh about it, but my heart grieves for the many Adventists who still labor under the weight of their unconfessed sins. If they would just open their Bibles, they could find enough there to overturn the “bad news” of the Investigative Judgment.

“...as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us.” -Psalm 103:12 ESV

“I, I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins.” -Isaiah 43:25 ESV

“I have blotted out your transgressions like a cloud and your sins like mist; return to me, for I have redeemed you.” -Isaiah 44:22 ESV

“...in love you have delivered my life from the pit of destruction, for you have cast all my sins behind your back.” -Isaiah 38:17 ESV

These are but a few of the texts that show, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that God does not hold sins in the heavenly books to condemn those who have not remembered to explicitly ask forgiveness for each of them. It is indeed quite the opposite. That Adventists still teach such a false view of God’s mercy is a shame to the work of Christ who said “It is finished” on the cross. The work of redemption is complete, Jesus has secured our salvation in his blood, and (some) Adventists are still holding onto the Investigative Judgment, as if this good news is just too good to be true.

Because the gospel is discounted so readily and the unique doctrines of Adventism are emphasized over and against “basic Christianity”, it is no wonder that Sabbath School classes end up so far off the track. I still remember a time when a gentleman in my Sabbath School class stated emphatically that the Investigative Judgment should be preached from the pulpit, because this is what makes the Adventist church different from the rest.

I’m convinced that our natural inclination is to not only see the good news as too good to be true, but to cling to teachings which make us unique because we’d like to think we’ve discovered something the rest of the Christian church has missed. Perhaps we’ve missed Jesus Christ and his gospel in the process.

Greg

Thank you , Greg. I believe you summed it all up there in that last paragraph !  I think that explains it perfectly.