Posted anonymously by: bobj

Hi Stan

Your comment about the info Shane Rosenthal shared on White Horse Inn about 70 percent of American pastors not believing in justification by faith alone is very close to the results obtained at the SDA seminary at Andrews when two-thirds of the ministerial students answered that the character Christ develops within us forms the basis for our salvation. 

These men are our ministers today. It’s no wonder people are confused.

Ellen’s writings are full of this heresy--she explains this at least 15 times--wrong every time.

I believe that the salvation of souls is at stake here.  This is an incredible deception, very appealing to fallen human nature. 

Bob

Hi Bob,

Thanks for making the points about how serious this debate is.

Greg,

Thanks for the 9Marks criteria for a healthy church. Those are really solid--9 marks of a healthy church.

Stan

Greg,

Thanks for the list of 9 marks of a healthy Christian church and the link provided.  I was pleased to see that my home church is listed as a 9Marks church and I’d have to agree.  We’ve been very fortunate and blessed to have found such a Biblically sound place in which to worship and be discipled in the Word as we’ve made the sometimes difficult transition out of the SDA church.

The White Horse Inn radio program was mentioned earlier in this thread.  Last night’s program called “Grace and Election in the Book of Ephesians” was excellent.  Though it’s been posted before you can download MP3’s and podcasts here.

Aaron

Aaron,

Thanks, you beat me to it (smiley) as I have almost no time to post. But last night’s WHI was one of the best discussions on election.

Election is a biblical doctrine, and it depends entirely on God’s sovereign will, and not on our free will.

Stan

Posted anonymously by: Glenn

“When you give up your own will, your own wisdom, and learn of Christ, you will find admittance into the kingdom of God. He requires entire, unreserved surrender. Give up your life for him to order, mold, and fashion. Take upon your neck his yoke. Submit to be led and taught by him. Learn that unless you become as a little child, you can never enter the kingdom of heaven. “

What do you all think of this statement?

I came across it on another forum and wondered how it might fit in with this discussion.

Specifically, the giving up of the will and of surrender.

Glenn, that quote expresses at least a semi-Pelagian, if not fully Pelagian position, presupposing that a sinner has the ability to give up his own will in submission to Christ. But the Bible describes our condition apart from Christ as death and a dead man cannot resurrect himself--he needs supernatural assistance. Indeed, this is what God gives when he raises us to life and seats us in the heavenly places (Ephesians 2).

The idea expressed in the Ellen White quote you provided (Selected Messages, vol. 1, pg. 110), presupposes that some amount of goodness remains in the sinner which allows him to take a small step of submission toward God. Consequently, God is unable to extend grace until man takes the decisive first step to save himself.

Greg

Posted anonymously by: Glenn

Thanks, Greg.  And very good job on the cite. It was apparently first made in 1906 by EGW in the Review and Herald.

I guess there’s a little chicken and egg issue here. I think I read the statement as relating to the surrendering a person does upon being born again. But that sort of begs the question as to whether a sinner can be born again or respond to God’s call as a sinner (or as someone in an unconsecrated or unsaved state--we’re all sinners) in order to be able to surrender. So, is a born again Christian someone who can or who does surrender to God?

And what about taking the yoke of Jesus upon ourselves (Matthew 11:29-31)?  In what sense is this part of the Christian experience?

Glenn,

Christians absolutely take on the yoke of Jesus, but this occurs after our regeneration. To understand how this works, the progression outlined in Ephesians 2 is helpful to examine:

1. “you were dead in the trespasses and sins...following the prince of the power of the air” (Ephesians 2:1-2)

2. “God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ… raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 2:4-6)

3. “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” (Ephesians 2:10)

It is at step three where we take the yoke of Jesus, performing the good works God prepared for us to do. Many Christians put step three before step one or two, believing that if they just try harder, God will be forced to accept their good works and grant them entrance to heaven. These attempts at self-righteousness always end in despair, because they are not fueled by the regeneration and newness of life given in step two. The gospel is the “fuel” which drives good works, and without it, despair is the inevitable result.

And what is the point of the entire progression? “[So] that in the coming ages [God] might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 2:7).

In no way is God required to save even one person, and it is a testament to His grace that He has seen fit to seat us in the heavenly places with Him. This is the power of God unto salvation and is the reason for living the Christian life in Jesus.

Greg

Posted anonymously by: Glenn

Thanks Greg.

I hope I’m not belaboring the point, but regarding the Ephesians Paul is speaking to:

1. At some point the Ephesians were dead in their sins but at another, later point, were made alive in Christ. When did this transition occur? The moment they heard the word preached to them? At baptism? Other? Did they go from being dead in their sins to being alive in Christ based on their response to what they heard?

2. Regarding Regeneration, in what sense does this occur at a single moment in time, and in what sense is it gradual? Should we notice this process or just trust that it is occuring or has occured?

3. For the regenerated person, why was it necessary for Paul to outline the fruits of the spirit in Galations 5? For the regenerated person, what is the purpose of hearing the word, attending church, etc?  What responsibilities does the regenerated person have?

Posted anonymously by: Glenn

To ask it another way,

The Westminster Confession’s point on Perseverance of the Christian, as well as Paul’s comments in Romans 7, depict even the born again or regenerated Christian as still having sinful propensities.

So the Christian continues to be in some way even after conversion or regeneration, living at cross purposes, resisting the fleshly influences, etc.  How does this Christian then face the matter of surrendering the will and taking the yoke of Jesus upon himself or herself? It would seem that a Christian in this state would not necessarily find surrender to Christ an automatic response. What do you think?

[quote author="Glenn"]
At some point the Ephesians were dead in their sins but at another, later point, were made alive in Christ. When did this transition occur?

Glenn, the answer appears in the first chapter of Ephesians:

“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession–to the praise of his glory.” (Ephesians 1:13-14 NIV)

Our “being made alive in Christ” happens upon hearing the Word–the gospel–preached. It is through this living Word that the Holy Spirit works, opening our ears for the first time to the conviction of sin, the need for repentance, and to the forgiveness of sins that is ours in Jesus. God has ordained the preaching of the gospel as the means by which He works to save souls, and this is why it is so critical to get the gospel right and to speak it with clarity. Indeed, the hearing of the gospel is so important, that Paul asks rhetorically in Romans 10:14-17: “How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? ...So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.”

When so many people are searching for some new theological fad, a previously-hidden time prophecy or the meaning of an obscure text, the simple gospel message remains to be preached, heard and believed. Aside from worshiping God, this is arguably the most important task for a Christian, because the gospel is literally the “power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes” (Romans 1:16).

[quote author="Glenn"]
Regarding Regeneration, in what sense does this occur at a single moment in time, and in what sense is it gradual?

Again, consulting Ephesians 1:13 above, we see that regeneration appears at a moment in time, the minute we are sealed with the Holy Spirit (recall the descent of the Holy Spirit upon those listening to Peter at Pentecost). It is so reassuring to see that Paul identifies the Holy Spirit as the guarantee of the inheritance we have as adopted children of God. If this does not make our hearts leap for joy, we need to ask ourselves if we have really received the gift. Also, let us not confuse regeneration with sanctification, which is indeed a gradual process.

[quote author="Glenn"]
For the regenerated person, why was it necessary for Paul to outline the fruits of the spirit in Galations 5? For the regenerated person, what is the purpose of hearing the word, attending church, etc? What responsibilities does the regenerated person have?

The same Spirit who regenerates Christians also inspired Paul’s counsel to the Galatians. Simply stated, God reveals His will to Christians through His inspired Word. While we receive inner promptings of the Spirit, we also learn the will of God through His revealed (written) Word. The regenerated person has the responsibility to study God’s Word to receive this instruction, and indeed, the Word becomes as “living water” to him. Remember Jesus’ words to the woman at the well: “The water that I will give..will become...a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” (John 4:14)

The word “surrender” is loaded, and is used in ways that are perhaps not biblical. The best way I can describe the change which occurs at the new birth is that our will, which was previously captive to sin (the flesh), is now captive to the Spirit. But we live in fleshly bodies, whose “members” are riddled with sin. Like Paul, we serve the law of God with our minds, but the law of sin with our flesh (Romans 7:25). Until receiving our final, imperishable, glorified body, we will continue to wrestle with the flesh.

Paul captures this “now (justified), not yet (perfectly sanctified)” aspect of the Christian life in Romans 8:

“And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. Forin this hope we were saved...Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.” (Romans 8:23-26 ESV)

Praise God that He not only resurrected us from spiritual death, but His Spirit helps us in our weaknesses and intercedes with groanings too deep for words!

Greg

Posted anonymously by: Glenn

Thanks again, Greg, for your thoughout answers to my gush of questions yesterday.

I agree that the term “surrender” is a bit loaded. I was thinking that when I read the statement originally on the other forum. And the statement itself bothered me but I wasn’t sure how I would respond to it.

It does make sense that we are in some way surrendered to Christ, but the EGW statement made it appear as if our surrender was not total and continual than we would not be accepted or at least given entry to eternal salvation. I think I have a greater appreciation for the distinctions you have drawn. 

Thanks Greg for some very clear posting on this important topic.

I never get tired of dwelling on the themes of God’s sovereign grace in making sure our salvation is secure. It is secure, because God has raised us to new life and has seated us in the heavenlies.

Stan

Speaking of RC Sproul, here is a quote from his most recent book regarding four point Calvinists:

R. C. Sproul in The Truth of the Cross (pp. 140-142) on four-point Calvinists:

There are a host of folks who call themselves four-point Calvinist because they can’t swallow the doctrine of limited atonement. Sometimes they say, “I’m not a Calvinist and I’m not an Arminian, I’m a Calminian.” I think that a four-point Calvinist is an Arminian. I say that for this reason: When I have talked to people who call themselves four-point Calvinists and have had the opportunity to discuss it with them, I have discovered that they were no-point Calvinists. They thought they believed in total depravity, in unconditional election, in irresistible grace, and in the perseverance of the saints, but they didn’t understand these points.

Only once have I encountered an exception to this general rule, one self-proclaimed four-point Calvinist who was not a no-point Calvinist. This person happened to be a teacher of theology. I was interested in his position, so I said to him: “I want to hear how you handle this, because I trust you. I know you’re knowledgeable in theology, and I want to hear ho you think this through.” I expected that he would not have an accurate understanding of the T, U, I, and P. But to my astonishment, when he went through them, I found that he had them down as clearly as an strict Calvinist ever articulated them. I was rejoicing, but also amazed. I said, “Now tell me about your understanding of limited atonement.” When he gave me his understanding of limited atonement, I discovered this man was not a four-point Calvinist, he was a five-point Calvinist. He believed in limited atonement and didn’t know it.

My point is that there is confusion about what the doctrine of limited atonement actually teaches. However, I think that if a person really understands the other four points and is thinking at all clearly, he must believe in limited atonement because of what Martin Luther called a resistless logic. Still, there are people who live in a happy inconsistency. I believe it’s possible for a person to believe four points without believing the fifth, although I don’t think it’s possible to do it consistently or logically. However, it is certainly a possibility given our proclivity for inconsistency.”
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RC Sproul has a way with words. Hearing him teach the Bible is always a moving and inspirational experience.

Stan