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The Pelagian Captivity of the Evangelical Church
Posted: 17 August 2007 06:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]  
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Do you see any risks in relying on the commentary of someone like Sproul, or MacArthur to understand the Bible? Is it possible that the frequent use of these authors (or any other theologians or Bible commenters) can lead to blind spots in Biblical interpretation?

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Posted: 17 August 2007 06:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]  
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[quote author="glennspring"]Do you see any risks in relying on the commentary of someone like Sproul, or MacArthur to understand the Bible? Is it possible that the frequent use of these authors (or any other theologians or Bible commenters) can lead to blind spots in Biblical interpretation?

Hi Glenn,

The answer to your question is absolutely there is danger in following any commentator blindly. But by and large we try to quote mostly from the scriptures.

God has given us gifted leaders and godly theologians who have great insight into the Bible, but they are never infallible. For example Sproul is an advocate of Sunday Sabbatarianism, and tithing which I believe to be unbiblical. MacArthur teaches the pre-tribulation rapture which I believe to be unbiblical.

But, when all the scriptures are studied, and the Holy Spirit illuminates the study, that is where these truths on salvation really hit home for me.

It took me eight years after leaving SDA to come to the belief that salvation is all of God, and He gets all the glory, and I got none of the glory. I am very stubborn, and it was not easy for me to give up my Arminian mindset, since Arminianism, the do-it-yourself philosophy is so ingrained into the human spirit.

Stan

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Posted: 01 September 2007 11:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]  
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Posted anonymously by: Dennis Fischer

Stan,

This is an excellent thread. Yes, I heartily agree that Arminian philosophy is deeply engrained in the natural heart. Likewise, Charles Spurgeon hit the nail on the head when he stated: “We are all born as Arminians, but it is only by the grace of God that we become Calvinists.” I further agree with your observation that New Covenant Theology (NCT) inevitably leads to antinomianism, charismaticism, and many subtle variations thereof.

Whether they admit it or not, it is highly evident that some former Adventists actually somehow miss the extrabiblical revelations of Ellen White and the “divinely-appointed” decrees of the SDA hierarchy. Therefore, this is the reason they are most vulnerable to the extrabiblical revelations in tongues-speaking. Charismaticism effectively restores their feeling of superiority over others and gives them extrabiblical revelations at the same time.

Dennis Fischer

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Posted: 02 September 2007 02:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]  
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Hi Dennis,

Welcome back to 4TG!

I firmly believe that former Adventists most important need is to become firmly grounded in scripture.

Your observations are correct. What do we see from most former SDAs theologically?

We see Arminianism as the dominant force. We see a low view of the law. We see some former SDA pastors getting into the charismatic movement, with one pastor endorsing books by those who believe in ongoing revelation and prophecying.

Former Adventists pride themselves in leaving Adventism. But are they just leaving one bad theological system only to embrace another bad theological system?

We need to be firm in the Reformed faith of Luther and Calvin (but really it is the faith of Jesus and the apostles.) We need to be firm on the gospel of salvation by grace alone, thru faith alone, on the account of Christ alone. Sola Scriptura, a faith built solely on the solid Word of God, and not in prophetic voices.

We need a solid foundation with a high regard for the Law of God. It is only through the Law that we have a knowledge of sin. Without the Law, there is no basis for the gospel. Law and Gospel must be kept in balance.

Stan

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Posted: 03 September 2007 01:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]  
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Posted anonymously by: John Douglas

As an ‘emerging’ Adventist I am bewildered at the wildly divergent theological positions that formers have adopted. As a group who has ‘studied’ themselves out the Adventist theological quagmire I expected far greater unanimity. My impression is that many have left Adventism with the aim of a shot gun blast and ended up all over the theological landscape. As has been noted, some have become quite charismatic while others have joined denominations whose theology is at least as messy as the Adventists (RCC comes to mind). What happened to scriptural purity?

On a positive note I find the theology espoused on this forum to ‘fit’ my emerging understanding of scripture
and eagerly wait for new postings — Thanks for referencing the Whitehorse Inn - I’m learning a lot!

JOHN

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Posted: 03 September 2007 04:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]  
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John 3:16
When God directed my attention to the D. Anderson web site and I read it, I did not know where to go or what to do except read the Bible.  I knew I could not go back to adventism.  So I prayed about it.  Finally God let me know where He wanted me.  About a year ago I thought he was prodding me to look else where, but what I have learned is that he wanted me to get more involved in the activities of the church.
My church is a Bible believing non denominational church.
What I see happening on FAF with regards to doctrine scares me.  I do not understand it, but if it scares me, I do not get involved.  The intolerance shown toward the person who is going to the SDB church really bothered me.

I have never heard the terms Arminian or Pelagian before I left the SDA.  I had heard Reformation, and was taught that SDA followed the reformation doctrine. 
I am reading and re reading the Bible and I know I will read other Christian writers.  I feel like a dumby when it comes to Luther and all the other Christian writersl
I will get over it, with God’s help.
Diana

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Posted: 03 September 2007 07:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]  
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John, thanks for the kind remarks. Stan and I have a sincere desire to share the good news of Jesus Christ in the most biblically accurate way possible. The doctrines of grace which were uncovered at the Protestant Reformation are the backbone of Christian theology, but sadly, too many present-day Christians are searching for a new or different set of “relevant” beliefs. Not surprisingly, this affects former Adventists too. What concerns us is that people will decide to leave Adventism and not use discernment in joining another church. In many cases, the alternative Christian churches are just as doctrinally-skewed as many Adventist churches–only the “pet doctrines” are different. Instead of searching for something “new” or “relevant”, we should be looking for churches that stand on the old, old, gospel truth. I am concerned that individuals with influence among former Adventists seem more interested in extracting people from the Adventist church without providing much guidance about what a good Christian church looks like. By engendering an “us vs. them” mentality against the Adventist church, the door is opened for formers to join any other “Christian” church because Adventism is seen as the biggest evil. But if a person leaves Adventism to join the Roman Catholic church, for example, they’ve simply traded one set of problems for another.

John, I’m glad you are finding something of value here. Right now my time to write new articles is diminished because I am in the middle of buying and selling a house and moving across country. Things will settle down in about 3-4 weeks, but until then, my time is at a premium. Stan is also dealing with significant issues and his participation right now is limited. We hope other like-minded individuals will share our passion for the biblical gospel over time. It is my prayer that former Adventists do not abandon doctrine for someone else’s idea of what “former Adventist Christianity” should look like, but instead take a sincere interest in studying the Scriptures and learning from the great theologians who have stood on Sola Scriptura for the last 400+ years.

Diana, don’t worry too much about not understanding all the finer points of the Reformation doctrines. The main thing is that you see yourself as a sinner who needs a Savior, and your faith is entirely in Him. If all you understood was John 3:16, that would be enough, but of course there is a wealth of Scriptural understanding that gives depth to our Christian experience. The doctrines of grace found in Reformation teaching touch on every aspect of our lives, giving a profound sense of understanding that transcends our human-centered way of thinking. The overarching theme is that God is at the center of the Universe, and we exist for His good pleasure. Even though our natural tendency is to rebel against Him and He has every right to destroy us, He has mercifully and graciously decided to save us for eternity with Him because of Jesus’ payment for our sins. Because He first loved us, we respond in love for Him, living a life of obedience to His Word. Seeing life through God’s perspective rather than our own is one of the most fundamentally freeing things about a Reformed understanding of grace. But God saves us despite our flawed understanding of Him. “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31). “Everyone who believes in Him will not be disappointed.” (Romans 10:11).

Dennis, it’s great to see you posting here. You are always welcome to contribute your insights. I share the same concerns you mentioned.

Greg

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Posted: 03 September 2007 08:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]  
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[quote author="Diana"]
What I see happening on FAF with regards to doctrine scares me. I do not understand it, but if it scares me, I do not get involved. The intolerance shown toward the person who is going to the SDB church really bothered me.

Diana, somehow I missed what you said here in my first reading of your post. I share your concern about what is happening with our friends on FAF. The only doctrine worth defending over there seems to be that which paints Adventism in the worst possible light, to the point that even a committed Christian attending a Seventh-day Baptist Church must be convinced to abandon his practice of worshiping on Saturday. This leads to a mindset where leaving Adventism is seen as the greatest possible step one can take toward Christ, but it ignores God’s sovereignty to save people even within the Adventist church. We should not be uncomfortable that some sincere Christians have come to a different conclusion than we have about worshiping on Saturday. We should not be as threatened by their Sabbatarian beliefs as they may be about our non-Sabbatarian practices. Only the Good Shepherd knows who His sheep are, and we make a grave mistake if we use the day of worship as a test for who belongs to Christ.

Today I received a mailing from John MacArthur’s “Grace to You” ministry. MacArthur made some very important observations that apply directly to this situation and the topic of this thread.

[quote author="John MacArthur"]
The vast majority of the thorny, persistent, mind-boggling questions that Christians struggle with are directly related to the sovereignty of God, election, predestination, perseverance, and the question of “free will.”

Those, of course, are doctrines associated with Calvinism. Both the label and the doctrines have been highly controversial for nearly five hundred years. As a matter of fact, I normally prefer to avoid using the term Calvinism because it often provokes too much emotion and too many misconceptions to be useful if the goal is real understanding rather than merely vigorous debate.

Besides, my preference has always been to deal with the doctrines of election, free will, predestination, and related ideas from the standpoint of the Bible, rather than all together as a theolgical system with a man’s name attached to it.

I have no slavish devotion to John Calvin, the man. I do admire his skills as a theologian. Even more important than that, he was (usually) a superb and very careful Bible expositor. He didn’t get everything right, of course. I wouldn’t agree with his views on baptism or Bible prophecy, for example.

As for the major teachings people so often label Calvinism, I usually prefer to speak of them as “the doctrines of grace.” These start with the sinner’s complete inability to free himself from sin’s bondage, and they include divine election, substitutionary atonement, God’s gracious work in drawing sinners to Himself, and the security of every believer’s salvation.

All of those are vital to a sound, biblical understanding of the gospel. But they are admittedly not without difficulty. And in order to sort out our understanding of those truths, we need to look to Scripture–not human tradition, personal feelings, debate forms on the Internet, or even Calvin’s own teachings. What does the Bible say? That’s my only real concern.

...

You may have heard me say this before, but it’s worth repeating. Doctrine matters. What you believe about God, the gospel, the nature of man, and every major truth addressed in Scripture filters down to every area of your life. You and I will never rise above our view of God and our understanding of His word.

This is so well-said, I can’t add to it. Doctrine matters. Even people who minimize doctrine have a doctrinal belief–their doctrine is that doctrine should be minimized! This is what I fear is happening in some segments of the former Adventist movement, and yes, it is scary.

Greg

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Posted: 03 September 2007 08:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]  
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John and Diana,

Thanks for your above comments as they are very encouraging.

Yes, I admit that I was one of the very stubborn and hardheaded ones with regard to the truth of Reformed theology, better termed “The Doctrines of Grace”. But understanding these concepts was my breakthrough in really leaving Adventism.

I am thrilled John that you are enjoying the Whitehorse Inn.

Along with Greg, I want to say how committed we are to more material on the deeper things of God--the true meat of the word.

Because of my wife’s illness and busy work schedule, I am not as active lately as I would like to be. But our long-term goal is to be ever more emphasizing the great doctrines of grace and to being for Christ and His gospel.

Greg just shared with me some excellent material from MacArthur on why doctrine and theology matters so much.

I can testify that knowing the Bible and being grounded in God’s Word has helped me more than anything during a real time of crisis that is ongoing. Without an understanding of God’s sovereignty and grace, life would be more difficult.

We are thankful for everyone’s participation on 4TG.

Stan

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Posted: 03 September 2007 08:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]  
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Greg quoting from MacArthur:

All of those are vital to a sound, biblical understanding of the gospel. But they are admittedly not without difficulty. And in order to sort out our understanding of those truths, we need to look to Scripture–not human tradition, personal feelings, debate forms on the Internet, or even Calvin’s own teachings. What does the Bible say? That’s my only real concern.

...

You may have heard me say this before, but it’s worth repeating. Doctrine matters. What you believe about God, the gospel, the nature of man, and every major truth addressed in Scripture filters down to every area of your life. You and I will never rise above our view of God and our understanding of His word.”
----------------------------------------------------

Right on brother John MacArthur! A hearty Amen! indeed.

I like what he says about not attaching a man’s name to a system such as Calvinism. It seems like just the use of the word puts people on the defensive right away. But the doctrines of grace are taught by Jesus and the apostles, and really the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation. By seeing how God works in history to accomplish His means for salvation also projects to His concern for every minute detail of our lives. God is not only awesome, but also totally sovereign over the affairs of men in a way that is mysterious and does not destroy man’s responsibilty or his free will. This is the great mystery.

Man in his unregenerate state is so blind to the things of God, that it is impossible for a spiritual corpse to raise himself to life. God must miraculously create this new life in man through the Holy Spirit.

Stan

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Posted: 03 September 2007 08:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]  
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John 3:16
Diana, don’t worry too much about not understanding all the finer points of the Reformation doctrines. The main thing is that you see yourself as a sinner who needs a Savior, and your faith is entirely in Him. If all you understood was John 3:16, that would be enough,

***Oh, that I saw when I was challenged to read the Bible by the SDA minister in our SS class, Christmas 2003.  I learned any thing I did good was as filthy rags and any thing good I did came from God.  I could not take any credit for it.

but of course there is a wealth of Scriptural understanding that gives depth to our Christian experience. The doctrines of grace found in Reformation teaching touch on every aspect of our lives, giving a profound sense of understanding that transcends our human-centered way of thinking. The overarching theme is that God is at the center of the Universe, and we exist for His good pleasure.

***Believe it or not, I learned a lot of this in my 12 step program.  Christians in the program would say, all in God’s time, we are children of God and other things I never heard at the SDA church.  I have said before my 12 step program cleaned out the SDA cob webs in my brain, which prepared me to know Jesus as He really is.

Even though our natural tendency is to rebel against Him and He has every right to destroy us, He has mercifully and graciously decided to save us for eternity with Him because of Jesus’ payment for our sins. Because He first loved us, we respond in love for Him, living a life of obedience to His Word. Seeing life through God’s perspective rather than our own is one of the most fundamentally freeing things about a Reformed understanding of grace.

***I am learning to see life through God’s perspective and it is very freeing.  God has taught me so much as I read the Bible.

But God saves us despite our flawed understanding of Him. “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31). “Everyone who believes in Him will not be disappointed.” (Romans 10:11).
***All I can add to the above is AMEN, AMEN, AMEN.  We do have an awesome God.
Diana

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Posted: 03 September 2007 10:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]  
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Diana,

Your experience of having a limited understanding of the Reformation issues was my experience as well. Collectively, my wife Sylvia and I have over 100 years of experience in Adventism.  It is very humbling to realize basic ignorance beyond SDA dogma. While still devout Adventists, Sylvia and I thought we knew everything there was to know about the Bible. If anyone was in doubt about any Bible topics, all they would have needed to do was to ask us for all the “RIGHT” answers. We were really hard nuts to crack.

Learning about the salvific aspects of Reformed theology has turned our world upside down.  It has deeply enriched our faith in God and in His Word. God never goes on a rescue mission that fails, and He never unadopts those in His wonderful family. It is nothing short of a miracle (all glory be to God)that we finally got the Gospel right. It was a most profound truth to realize that salvation is from the Lord--not dependent upon my fallen human will. Yes, even our faith is a gift from God.  I didn’t choose Him, He chose me. Likewise, Jesus told His disciples, “You did not choose Me but I chose you...” (John 15:16 NASB).  God does all the choosing.  After all, it is His family. 

An angel of the Lord prophetically declared, “...He will save His people from their sins” (Matt.1:21 NASB).  When former Adventists gaze upon the religious landscape today, it is often most bewildering and even scary. Obviously, Adventism has not prepared them to decipher the essential truths of the Christian faith from outright heresies and subtle variations thereof. It is not always easy for “do-it-yourselfers” to divorce the heresy that we are the captains of our eternal destiny. Indeed, Satan provides many religious options for every type of human personality.

Dennis Fischer

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Posted: 03 September 2007 12:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]  
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John 3:16
Dennis, Stan or Greg,
Please refer a simple book for me to read as a starter about reformed theology.  I read the series of 3 posts today about the gift of discernment.  I guess I am not to thick headed to understand reformed theology:)
Diana

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Posted: 03 September 2007 12:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]  
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Diana,

I have not read it, but I understand R.C. Sproul’s What Is Reformed Theology? is very good. This book has received very good reviews from reputable sources.

Also, Sproul’s book, The Holiness of God, is outstanding.

I’d also recommend listening to the White Horse Inn radio program. A new program is posted online every Sunday night. The format is very enjoyable and you can’t help but pick up some valuable insights every time you listen.

Greg

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Posted: 03 September 2007 01:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]  
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Diana,

In the truest sense, EVERY Christian is a theologian. I concur with Greg’s book recommendations.  Happy reading!

Dennis Fischer

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