Thanks Jonvil,

Yes, the SDA church is pushing Ellenolatry more than ever. Without Ellen White there is no SDA church, and no reason for it to exist. If 1844 is false, then the SDA church is false, and has a false foundation.

I think most reading this know that there is no basis for the doctrine of 1844 and the IJ.

Until the SDA church repents in dust and ashes over the deceptions and frauds they have perpetrated in the name of Ellen White, the SDA chuch will always remain on the far fringes of Christianity, and will become increasingly irrelevant.

Stan

I agree with scholars like Bacchiocchi, Fritz Guy, Heppenstall and Bradford’s take on EGW.  Her role as is defined in the NT, is to be more homiletic and not exegetic.

I believe that taken in context with the right principles involved relevant to our day, EGW can be a homiletical guide with proper counsel. EGW intentions both stated and written have been to direct people to look to God (even if it is with an Arminian/Early Methodist slant...hey, that’s how she was raised!). She always exalted the Bible above her books and admonished those who used her to settle disputes.

“Let all prove their positions from the Scriptures and substantiate every point they claim from the revealed Word of God.....(To delegates at a 1901 conference she said...."Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don’t you never[sic] quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and you make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don’t you give a rap any more what ‘Sister White Said’ [sic]-’Sister White said this,’ and ‘Sister White said that,’ and ‘Sister White said the other thing’. But say, ‘Thus saith the Lord God of Israel.”

Despite her errors, human frailty, and personal misjudgments, I can believe that EGW was inspired and I believe that with all the books she wrote, all the glory she brought to God and all the service she has given, one cannot doubt her sincerity and that she was blessed by God.  Only rabid, anti-EGW haters can completely dismiss everything she did, all the good she wrote and all the counsel and inspiration she has given.

Again, I strongly enourage you all to take the time to seriously read Dr. Graeme Bradford’s book “More Than a Prophet”. It puts things in a much better perspective. Until people understand the concepts and the way they are presented in this book and look at SDA-historical and biblical viewpoints of inspiration, there will be no common ground to discuss it.

As for me, it is quite clear in my mind and there is no deception or confusion. You’ve heard me say it over and over here but I believe that both traditional SDAism and anti-EGW activists take what they want to hear, take the EGW writings that support their view and than run with it all the while convinced of their own view.

Perspective and middle ground has been long overdue on this matter. Bradford and Bacchiocchi are the new A.G. Daniells and W.W. Prescott of our time on this matter. It’s about time. Too bad the church was dumb enough to bury the findings of the 1919 Conference! As they predicted, history repeated itself and continues to do so because of the lack of proper perspective on Sister White’s writings.

[quote author="Guibox"]
I agree with scholars like Bacchiocchi, Fritz Guy, Heppenstall and Bradford’s take on EGW. Her role as is defined in the NT, is to be more homiletic and not exegetic.

So I assume you would like to rewrite fundamental belief #18, which makes her words an “authoritative source of truth”?

[quote author="Guibox"]
I believe that with all the books she wrote, all the glory she brought to God and all the service she has given, one cannot doubt her sincerity and that she was blessed by God.

This is not the best argument, because other “prophets” like Mary Baker Eddy and Joseph Smith also wrote books and their followers believe them both to be sincere Christians. How do you minimize Ellen White’s errors and hold her work up as prophetic while discounting everyone else who makes the same claim?

[quote author="Guibox"]
You’ve heard me say it over and over here but I believe that both traditional SDAism and anti-EGW activists take what they want to hear…

My friend, it also sounds like you are taking away what you want to hear. The Bible gives us explicit counsel on how to test the prophets, but instead of measuring Ellen White according to this standard, you’re asking us to read a book by Graeme Bradford.

Greg

Hi Folks,

This has been a very difficult topic to remain silent on. But despite biting my tongue for a long time for fear I have nothing new to submit, I would like to thank you all for carrying on this important topic.

I have just a few observations.

Stan, I fully concur with your last post.

Jonvil, thank-you for documenting the thrust of the Adventist publishing work. I often wonder how wonderful it would be if the church pushed Bible study as much as they do Ellen study. There are I suspect many reasons why this will never happen. If Bible study was emphasized instead of Ellen, more people would soon find out just how different the two are. I also would submit that it would be the end of the publishing industry in Adventism. $$$$$ would be no more.

Guibox, you are my friend, and I have carefully read Bradford’s book. What he describes, is not the Ellen White that the SDA Church or the White Estate promote. They have distanced themselves from his take on her as being not what they understand her ministry to be. What he does by pointing out he fallibility, humanness and mistakes, diminishes the facade the official Church promotes. He basically takes away anything that would make her in some way unique or special. She brought nothing new to the table, if you take away her role as traditionally understood.

To make mistakes, be they historical, theological, or prophetic, makes her no more “inspired” than anybody else who makes the same claims she has. To somehow diminish her role as Bradford has, definitely in my mind makes her no more authoritative than any other itinerant preacher then or now. How I determine her legitimacy is by what she said, and wrote. There are just to many mistakes, and theological anomolies for me to take her as an authority on any topic. She promoted the Galatian heresy. She was a modern day judeizer. I am sorry to say it, but that is what it is. I can find no way to find anything redemptive in her ministry.

I am NOT a “rabid, anti EGW hater”.....She was just plain wrong too many times, on too many topics to be taken seriously as a denominational thought leader, or to be considered a C and A source of truth. That doesn’t make me an EGW hater. Whatever good she might have done, seems to pale when compared to the harm she has done to the understanding of security in Christ and the gospel of grace that was and is the ministry of Christ. She has taken that security away from millions of people through her writings and “ministry”. I find that inexcusable.

The Adventist Church has spent the last 140 years trying to substantiate and legitimize her claims and theology.

I find it astonishing that with so much Good News in Scripture to share with the world, the emphasis continues to be trying to make Scripture agree with Ellen White.

Greg,

I agree that when testing EGW with the Biblical tests of a Prophet, or to even be considered inspired, I fail to see how she meets these criteria.

Somehow, I think that there will never be consensus on this topic.

Guibox, you of course, are free to believe as you wish, and as the Holy Spirit leads. I respect your journey as you continue to share with those of us who see things differently.

In Christ alone,

Randy

Fair enough everyone.

However, if I’m going to make a judgment call on EGW it will not be based on the FB of 1980 which was basically a pendulum swing due to Walter Rea’s backlash. I believe that making ‘EGW an authorative source of truth’ was the worst thing our church could do. It wasn’t in the 1931 FB by the way.

When I read the words of A.G. Daniells, Willie White, W.W. Prescott and even James White, I take their perseptive over that of any person today be they anti-EGW or EGW apologist.

A study of their opinions, people who knew EGW intimately makes me believe more and more that the church and the dissenters have no clue what EGWs role in the church was supposed to be or the nature of inspiration.

This is the last I have to say on this subject as I am moving on.

Guibox,

I would accept your arguments as well only IF Ellen White had not personally claimed so much for herself in her own words.

That quote you came up with is excellent, but at other times she said her words were just as authoritative as the words of the Old Testament prophets. You can’t have it both ways.

She contradicted herself so much, that it would be difficult to figure out what she said really came from God and what didn’t. God is not the author of the confusion that Ellen White’s writings have generated throughout the hisory of the SDA church.

I agree that it is time to move on from the writings of Ellen White. Only God can judge for sure where she stands. There is so much conflicting information and controversy over what she really wrote.

The Bible, on the other hand has stood the test of time, and the criticism of the world’s fiercest skeptics. There is no hidden vault at the White estate hiding manuscripts from public scrutiny of the Bible, like they do Ellen’s writings.

The White estate is still very secretive, and will not allow scholars to investigate what is in their hidden vaults. Some day the secrets will be made known, and we may find out even more shocking evidence about the deception that has been propagated in the name of Ellen White.

Also, Guibox, why has the White estate put a disclaimer on Graeme Bradford’s book? Is it because they have something to hide, or it might destroy the White mystique?

Stan

John 3:16
Dennis,
I have not been back here since I wrote about my younger brother.  My family is of Mexican descent.  My brother married a black lady.  My brother has not told me how she reacted as a black person when he found what EGW said.  He just told me what he did.  Just wanted to make sure I explained what I said correctly.
Diana

While doing a google search and typing in forthegospel.org, I came across an interesting discussion on a black SDA website which picked up on our discussion on this thread:

http://www.blacksda.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=16590&st=0

Stan