John 3:16
Faye,
You and I were raised in the same time frame.  I was taught as you were, with EGW having the final word over the Bible.  You questioned it and I did not.  But thank God neither of us are there any more.
Diana

Faye, I can only agree with what you said and know exactly what you are saying and how you felt. I went to Adventist college in the 60’s at Madison and it was very much the same way. I am, to this day, still very baffled by the EGW issue along with other doctrinal issues and now, the Adventist church seems to have about four different stances - I think that is about the worst thing they can do is not to be one unified church and stand by it. In my town where I am living now, the local SDA church has a service in a separate building for praise and worship with no emphasis on ANY doctrine.
You’re right about the referral to EGW books for anything that needed an answer. The “little red books” were a staple in every SDA home then.

Posted anonymously by: Glenn Weeks

DeeAnna Edens

Your comments on religion and money are insightful.  I did research on Ellen White’s writings--a file drawer full starting with the first vision.  What I found is that not one of the so called visions could be checked out as genuine--there was always some extenuating circumstance.

EGW is on record of writing some 25 million words; it turns out that some 6 million of those words, some 1/4 of what was written, was stolen, plagiarized.  This is well documented.

I took this information to an associate pastor of a major church--in fact an SDA church in which the grandson of Ellen White is the pastor.  We had lunch and I layed out some of my research.  The associate pastor who I will call Bill leaned back and made it very plain (I have a degree in Philosophy [Columbia University] and I have seminary training [New Theological Seminary] so the SDA ministry doesn’t try to con me--they level).  “Look,” he said, “We know that EGW was not a prophet, but we have to maintain her position as some of the people believe it. If we didn’t it would impact our constituency.” Frankly this means that if the truth were made plain membership and church income would be affected--its that simple.

I think this is a sad state of affairs.

Glenn Weeks

Glenn -

I am shocked that they would admit that, but its the truth.
Just imagine what would happen to the SDA denomination if there were no EGW and they removed her from the scene. Can you just imagine what it would mean in all areas?  They HAVE to keep her and defend her. It really is a very sad state of affairs. Thanks for telling me about your experience with the White Estate person. Not only would it affect the SDA membership —it would be the end of the SDA church and any credibility it ever had, not to mention the financial impact on the organization. I think about that a lot...I think it’s mind boggling.

Posted anonymously by: Faye

Thank you to all who wrote back.  Believe me, I was NOT trying to take a stand against the church back in 1967.  I still “believed” at that time and wanted very much to remain a member.  It was the only thing I had known my entire life.  We didn’t even really associate with non-Adventists so I had no friends and really no place to go.  Fortunately, I was about to go to college at the time.  I just switched and went to a local non-Adventist Junior College at the last minute and managed to make at least a few friends there so I had someplace to go where I wasn’t an outcast.

It seems kind of funny now but the point of contention was pepper.  I hadn’t even questioned Investigative Judgment or the Seventh Day Sabbath.  All I wanted to know was why EGW said we couldn’t eat pepper since I though her reasons were stupid.  It came down to an argument with our local church minister over me stating that EGW could not possibly be a prophet if she wrote such stuff.  I was seventeen.  Seventeen year olds say lots of stuff.  However, my statement that she couldn’t be a prophet if she wrote such things, offended him.  The next thing you know, I got a letter in the mail stating I was being called before the church board.  I was terrified.  I mean, seriously terrified.

They asked me if I still believed in the Church.  I said that I did.  They asked me if I believed EGW was the church prophet.  I said I did not.  To be honest, I really did not think they were going to throw me out for that and I was being a cocky brat and refusing to back down.  It scared me to death when they started telling me I had received the mark of the beast.

I walked away from that so angry and hurt, I spent the next ten years or so rejecting ALL religion.  It’s a miracle I ever managed to find my way back to scripture at all.  I still shy away from organized religion.  The minute a minister starts telling me I HAVE to believe one way or another, I’m gone.  I spent a lot of years believing there was no way I could be saved so there wasn’t much point in even trying and no point in religion at all.  I think somewhere in the back of my mind, I still believed everything I had been taught growing up.  I just didn’t think there was any way to ever live up to the SDA teachings so why bother?  Most of the Adventist kids I knew growing up spent their entire lives trying to be “good enough” to get to heaven.  We were all trying to live up to some seemingly unobtainable standard, constantly worried about if we had managed to confess every single sin, or worried maybe we had forgotten about one.  Horrors. We’re doomed.

I reread the New Testament many years later and was astounded at all I did not know, all I had never been taught in my 12+ years of Adventist schooling and Bible classes.  Gods amazing Grace was not standard fare in any SDA school during my youth.

My biggest regret now is that my parents suffered tremendously for what was perceived as “Faye’s fall from the church.” People my mother had been friends with for years, treated her differently after that.  It was very sad.  She remained a faithful Adventist for the rest of her life but she was made to suffer for my “sin”.  I think I have a harder time forgiving the Church for what they did to her then what they did to me.

Glenn, thanks for giving us a little more background on your exodus from Adventism. You certainly have the credentials to mount a credible inquiry into Ellen White’s “gift”. I am very surprised the church officials admitted to you behind closed doors that she was not a prophet and that they needed to sustain her to avoid losing more members. In studying the history of Adventism and observing the behavior of church administrators, one becomes aware of the possibility that church leaders are putting their weight behind a prophet they don’t believe, but rarely do we get an open admission of this. In reading the transcript of the 1919 Bible Conference, for example, the feeling that the church had let things go too far with respect to EGW’s “gift” was evident, but nobody was willing to be the one to admit they were supporting outright falsehood. As another example, the way the church handled Desmond Ford gave the implicit message that if the choice was between biblical truth and Ellen White’s teachings, the church will always come down on her side. As you say, this is a sad state of affairs. We’re trying to bring some of these things to light here on 4TG in a way that is objective and fair, allowing no room to be dismissed as simply “angry former Adventists”.

Faye, your story is so compelling, and yet sad. What those men did in the name of Ellen White tarnished the treasured gospel of Jesus Christ. It is understandable that you have been “gun shy” about religion since then. I am so thankful you did not equate Adventism with Christianity and decide it was a human fabrication. The good news of Jesus is outside of the control of sinful men (and women), and please don’t let anyone take that away from you. Many will try to wrestle control of God’s Word for their own gains, even performing great works and “prophecies” in the name of Jesus, but in the end, the Lord will say “depart from me, I never knew you” (Matthew 7:21-23). The kingdom of heaven belongs to those who, with the humility of a child, cling to their Abba Father (Luke 18:15-17). Against such, no human scheme or religion can prevail. Faye, thanks again for sharing your story. I will keep you in my prayers.

Greg

Posted anonymously by: Glenn Weeks

Greg:

Thanks for the comments.

I recently had lunch with a Senior Minister of the Phoenix, AZ SDA church.  I asked him, “What do you think of my web site?” “Very impressive,” was his answer.  It doesn’t go further than that.  My conclusion:  The SDA church is so big, so entrenched and well established it doesn’t really make any difference what opinion an individual member may or may not have.  It will not make any differnece unless it were to get media attention and make a difference for their organization at a national level.  Its the 17 billion dollar net worth corporate juggernaut.

Regards,

Glenn Weeks

Posted anonymously by: Glenn Weeks

Greg:

I have to learn your blog system--I just had a double post.  My second post was a little more annonomous in content than the first--I really don’t wish to put anyone on the spot.

Please use it in this light.  Thanks

Glenn Weeks

Posted anonymously by: Dan Hagan

Greg,

Your website and its forums are a blessing to me and I really appreciate and value the Christian perspective of a former Adventist such as yourself.

I was raised in a Lutheran home and am still blessed with the Christ-centered fellowship of a wonderful Lutheran church near my home here in SE Michigan.

My younger brother however, has taken a very different path.  In the early 1980s, for reasons that I’m unaware of, he chose to attend Andrews University and is now a very devout member of the SDA church.  I believe he now holds a Masters of Divinity from Andrews.  I know that he puts Christ at the center of his faith; but he has many extra-scriptural concepts and ideas that I find very troubling. However, his knowledge of the bible far exceeds mine and this makes having a meaningful exchange difficult for me. Especially when I try to convince him that his “performance” based concepts are (in my opinion) extra-scriptural.  Of course dietary differences and observance of the Sabbath are issues of difference also. I have not ask him his opinion about EGW so I don’t know how he stands in this regard.  I must make it clear at this point that our relationship is actually very close and loving.  Our conversations get a bit heated at times but we always come to the brotherly agreement that we will agree to disagree.  We only see each other 1-1 during the holidays (usually twice a year).

I have much more reading to do in your various forums before I can responsibly contribute or ask cogent questions. My objective during my review of your website will be the collection of material to help me understand my brother’s faith system and more specifically, how it differs from reformed Christianity.  If you have any materials, references (even within your website), or advice that you think would be helpful, I would really appreciate your input.

Thanks so much ahead of time for your ministry (website) and the time and labor you expend in sharing your knowledge and experience.

In His service!

Dan

Posted anonymously by: Glenn Weeks

Greg:

A follow-up on a previous blog as I try not to leave loose ends.  I write fast usually using phonetic spelling more or less--but since most blog systems don’t have spell check my errors get through.  Yes, I do recognize that ‘annonomous’ is really ‘anonymous--just for the record.

I have just put my understanding of the finished work of Calvary on my web site:  http://www.ChristianText.com and Chapter 9, The Symbolic Code and The Finished Work of Calvary cite this doctrine, page 12 and on.

My position is that the SDA teaching on the Investigative Judgment with an evaluation of believers in a sanctuary in heaven at the end of the age is erroneous--I think it is a very dangerous and misleading belief and it should be corrected as it distorts the true gospel.  There simply is no Investigate Judgment as SDAs posit--there is, however, a world review of all history in heaven at the time of the judicial/tribunal (See Chapter 8 on the above web site).

I also see evidence that this distortion of the gospel is having a deleterious effect on the youth of the SDA church particularly.  (I have a daughter at one of the SDA colleges.) At this college drugs and alcohol use is quite prevalent among students and weekend binges are not uncommon--the saving grace of the gospel is very remote to the lives of these young people.  Ellen White is held up as the underlying authority of truth--yet in a doctrines class of 30 at this college only 5 hands go up when asked if anyone has read her. It is my position that the SDA church badly needs the true gospel.

Glenn Weeks

Dan Hagan.

Hi! I’ve been an Adventist for 35 years but managed to study myself out of it, and this forum has contributed much to my understanding. Regarding information (con) about the Adventist Church I could bury you in web sites which probably wouldn’t help a ‘never been’ Adventist. I think that a possible beginning would be

http://www.ratzlaf.com/SDA Truth.html

Dale is a former Adventist Pastor who has written about Adventism. This particular site allows a complete reading of a little book he wrote ‘The Truth about Seventh-day Adventist “Truth“‘. Hopefully this will give you a handle on Adventist beliefs

John Douglas

Hi Dan,

When you go to the Ratzlaf website, that John shared above, look for the Greg Taylor book, “Discovering the New Covenant: Why I an no Longer a Seventh-Day Adventist”. Taylor is also a former SDA pastor.  His book is very easy to read, with good Scriptural references and an interesting story-line as to the reasons he left the SDA church.

I am a “recovering” former SDA - 40+ years as an Adventist - 5 years living in the freedom Christ paid for me.  It was through a non-denominational Bible study that I finally realized God’s grace was all I needed. My suggestion to you is to arm yourself with the Scripture.  It is good to have head knowledge of SDA doctrine but God’s Word is your best “weapon”.

Welcome to 4TG.

Denise

Welcome Dan to 4TG. Thanks you for your kind words about this site. Greg has worked hard to put this together.

Good to hear from you again Denise.

Happy New Year everyone, as I am now back on line after a short hiatus and vacation.

Stan

Stan, Good to have you back! 

Denise, I absolutely agree that ‘God’s Word is your best “weapon”.’ but a ‘never been’ has no conception how an Adventist’s understanding of the same scripture can be totally opposite due to the ‘infallible’ interpretations by the the Adventist ‘prophet’ Ellen G. White. Dan will find scriptural discussions with his brother frustrating if he does not understand how completely influenced Adventists are by the writings of this ‘prophetess’ (as I understand it - over 25 million words??)I am convinced that any biblically based discussion will prove fruitless as long as the ‘ghost’ of the this ‘prophetess’ is present. Her influence is so pervasive, that quite frankly, I’m at a loss as to how to approach this problem in my own home.

John Douglas