Dan, you might find this post ‘Adventism and the Gospel’ found at http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?t=88201
informative.

John Douglas

Hi John and Dan,

I do agree with you, it is good to have the “head knowledge” of SDA doctrine to have a clear understanding of the bondage of Adventism.  My point is we really are powerless to change someone’s mind.  That can only come from within a person’s heart through the power of the Holy Spirit leading them.

As a former with many SDA family and friends (and also non-Christian friends that don’t even know about the SDA church let alone the love of God), I have come to believe I (the person Denise who has her own selfish agenda) need to stay out of the way (that doesn’t mean I don’t share Christ - I just don’t preach the Denise-centered judgments - you should/you shouldn’t...). 

The only relationship that really is any concern of mine is the one I have with my Father.  As I hold more and more of His truths close in my heart, I can then “fight” error with Truth and be “fighting” for Jesus rather than “fighting” against Adventism (I hope I am making sense as I rush my son through breakfast and off to school).

May Jesus always be glorified,
Denise

Stan - it is always good to hear from you.  Thanks for your friendship.

Posted anonymously by: Dan Hagan

All,

Thanks so much for your kind and thoughtful words and supportive information.  As the eldest sibling, I can’t help but feel that I wasn’t there when he needed proper guidance in his spiritual quest.  I allowed him to enter into a false religion and suffer the dire consequences as a result.  Of course, these are my human emotions and I know that they are not a scripturally supported way to feel.  I fully realize that God’s plan is not always obvious and I fervently pray for a favorable outcome.  I also have surrendered myself to God’s will and have ask for His guidance in how (if at all) I might be a tool for the Lord to reach my brother with the Truth that salvation comes ONLY through faith in Christ .

Thanks again…

Dan…

Hi Dan,

I would also like to welcome you to 4TG.

I can relate to so much you have said, except I was born into Adventism and it wasn’t until 3 years ago that I started a serious study of my beliefs. That study ultimately led me out of Adventism into the greater body of Christ.

Where I identify with you is that now I have 4 children ages 18-23 who I feel I have let down by not studying sooner, and by not protecting them from what I believe are the errors in Adventism.

They are bright kids, and have discerned many of the problems, before I did, but are at this point left in a sort of theological limbo, not feeling comfortable enough to explore other church options and not finding satisfaction in Adventism. It has left them not comfortable anywhere.

So I appreciate the feelings of letting folks down.

Thank you for sharing and I look forward to hearing more from you.

I would also heartily recommend the books suggested by John and Denise.

I would also suggest looking at the material prepared by Mark Martin at Ex Adventist ministries on http://exadventist.com/

And a belated happy New Year to all,

Randy

Hi Dan,

Thanks for your kind remarks above. I am glad you found us and I hope you will find the material here helpful in understanding the situation with your brother. I echo what Randy, Stan, John and Denise said above. You are right to feel sad that your brother entered into Adventism because within this church, the gospel is not preserved, taught or preached with clarity. Those who are on the more “evangelical” side of Adventism are considered somewhat harmful to the cause and many have lost their ability to continue working in an official capacity for the church. The writings of Ellen White have (in many cases) obscured the simple and life-giving message of Jesus Christ–“let the one who desires take the water of life without price” (Revelation 22:17). In Adventism, this water is not without price as it comes at the very high cost of a self-perfected character and a spotless record of remembered and confessed sins.

Dan, I will be praying for you and your brother. You might encourage him to read our site or the other resources that have been shared with you. Most of all, I encourage you to show your active faith to him whenever possible. Your assurance that God did something for you in Christ on Calvary and that this work was perfect and complete is a teaching that is largely missing in the Adventist church.  Maybe your brother will sense that you have something he has not found in Adventism, and maybe he will finally see that the gospel is really good news.

Blessings in Christ,

Greg

Posted anonymously by: Anonymous

Dan,

Welcome to the forum, your presence here creates the opportunity to write about a subject which preoccupied my mind in the last time.

Having Adventist friends I usually look after any improvement in their understanding of the gospel, and sometimes I’m delighted to see some of them formulating their understanding of the gospel in such a way that I see nothing objectionable in it. What I learned in time, and this is not a singular experience of the formers, is that behind the apparently correct statements of belief there is a different and even contrary understanding of the gospel.

For example, one of my closest friend spoke about the Investigative Judgment in such a way that I thought that his understanding is in harmony, even deficiently, with the gospel. He said that the judgment will reveal that the believers have true faith by showing that their faith is not dead, but alive, and produces works. This understanding is of course, biblical, and in harmony with James, and in another context it would be sufficient to show that the person does not believe in works as his righteousness, but place these works where the works belongs, as evidences of the reality of faith. In the final instance, people are saved by faith alone, but by a true faith which is not alone. This was the reformers understanding of the gospel, and is a balanced view which rejects both legalism and licentiousness. Works as evidence of true faith, what should I be not satisfied?

But in the context of the Adventist faith, this is not a satisfactory answer, because in the official Adventist understanding the required evidence of faith is obedience to an external standard, the Decalogue, and especially the keeping of the seventh-day sabbath. And if you don’t keep the sabbath, if you worship on Sunday for example, and work on sabbath, you will fail the examination because you simply lack the evidence and proof necessary to show that you have true faith. Being a sabbath breaker will just be a proof that your faith is dead, you have no true faith.

And at this point it is useful to ask adventist similar to the question for my friend, “You know my position about holy days of worship and their secondary importance, if I would lack the evidence necessary because I don’t keep the sabbath, what would happen to me? Will my faith be consider insufficient or dead because I lack this specific “work”? Will I be lost because I can’t measure with the standard of the Law?”

This brings us to the moment of truth, when the real position will show up, if we are saved by grace alone or we need also to keep the Law in order to be saved, and the true colors will be seen. Of course, asking such questions will probably make adventists uncomfortable, because, on one side they don’t like to tell you that your faith is fake because you don’t keep the sabbath and consequently you are lost, and on the other hand, they will contradict their adventism if they will admit that you can be saved and pass the
judgment even if you don’t keep the sabbath. Nevertheless, it is imperative, in my thinking, to ask such questions if we don’t want our adventists friends to entertain erroneous views about the gospel.

In general, adventists are sincere when they think that they believe in righteousness by faith alone, not by works, and that the works are only evidences of true faith. They will claim that they don’t keep the sabbath in order to be saved, but because they are saved, and their sabbath keeping is the fruit of salvation, as part of sanctification. But by erecting a fixed standard of sanctification which includes sabbath keeping and dietary rules, they unconsciously or consciously turn the work of salvation upside down, and make sanctification the basis of salvation by equating sanctification with works-righteousness keeping of the Law, especially the sabbath. Sincerity and promoting a righteousness by works, by law keeping can go hand in hand peacefully..

It is our joy to join the apostle Paul in his desire to “be found in him[Jesus Christ], not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith– “ (Phil. 3:9)

I will quote the SDA official statement of belief number 23, as a back up of what I said above.

There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent.–Fundamental Beliefs, 23

“keeping the commandments” = Decalogue and sabbath keeping, things which shows who is “deemed worthy” to be resurrected for life.

Closing this post which I think is already too long, it is important to be aware of the language barrier which prevents a good and fruitful communication of the gospel, and try to go beyond it. This should be in my thinking the first step in carrying the gospel message to adventists.

I would like to know what other former adventists think about this subject and if you had similar experiences, how you got beyond the barrier language and influenced your adventists friends to trust fully in Jesus Christ for their salvation.

Gabriel

I’m sorry, I posted without logging in.

Gabriel

Posted anonymously by: Dan Hagan

Gabriel,

Please don’t apologize for the length of your post as I find the information, the reflection, and the references very useful.  There is so much that I don’t know, and so much to share and absorb that I do feel a bit inundated at times.  However, I feel that everything I’m hearing in this forum has a solid basis in, and the full strength of, the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!  Could there be a better foundation (rock) upon which to stand!?!?

In my last interaction with my beloved brother, he was complaining that the Catholic and the Reformed churches were in gross error by not keeping the Sabbath. To him, the absence of Sabbath keeping was the result of the church’s arrogance, the evil product of man’s departure from the Law.  For future conversations with him I feel I need to be better prepared to define and describe the apostle’s stance on the Sabbath of the Law.  I’ve gotten some very good input from this website and other websites I’ve been referred to recently.  I will continue to collect information and learn what I need to know so that I can have loving and productive conversations with my brother. By “productive” I mean that (prayerfully) the exchange would plant the seed of truth and awaken in him a true (spirit led) desire for the truth of the Lord’s gospel.

I express these desires prayerfully as I fully realize that I am nothing but a crude container made from dust; and that anything within me that is truly good, comes not from me but comes from my Creator through the Holy Spirit!  As I expressed earlier, I am but a crude “tool” for His hands…

If the words that I speak are true and the works that I do are faith(full); then they come not from this sinful being, but from Him!

Dan…

Thanks Gabriel and Dan for your thoughtful posts above.

Gabriel,

You make excellent points. It should be pointed out that my late friend Dr. Walter Martin had the same problems with Adventism when he was analyzing a lot of conflicting information. There is a lot of double talk coming from Adventists on this subject. Do SDAs really believe we are saved by grace through faith alone? Martin was satisfied with the answers he got from the authors of Questions on Doctrine, but as time went on, he saw the glaring inconsistencies of actual practice.

I don’t think most who post on this site believe that Adventism is an evangelical church truly proclaiming a Christ centered gospel. I have been reluctant to call SDA a full blown cult equal to Mormons or JWs only because the fundamental beliefs statement is orthodox on the Trinity and the person of Christ. Interestingly enough, their statement on salvation by grace is not much different than other strongly Arminian churches such as the “Church of the Nazarene”.

Quoting from Gabriel’s quote above of the fundamental belief statement:

“The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent”
---------------------------------------------
Notice the sentence: “It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ,...”

After leaving SDA, I attended a large non-denominational church which is very popular even among former SDAs, Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa. The leader of the entire CC movement, Chuck Smith, when asked whether he believes in eternal security said something like this:

“As long as WE abide in Christ, we are eternally secure.”

What does it mean to abide in Christ? If our salvation is dependent on US abiding, then does that give us full assurance of salvation? What if I don’t abide enough?

So how does the CC leader’s statement differ significantly from the SDA statement?  Well Chuck Smith would definitely not believe it included Sabbath keeping, but what about other aspects of Christian living?

Many Reformed churches believe that the Sabbath of the Decalogue has been transferred to Sunday, and many Presbyterian pastors will say that keeping Sunday is as important as the rest of the decalogue, and by obeying the law we give evidence that we are truly chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

There is also a theology circulating among some Reformed groups that is practically IDENTICAL to the SDA statement on the IJ above, and it goes something like this:

When we are regenerated or saved, we will be transformed to the point where we will be keeping the Law consistently. But, before we can have assurance of salvation, we must demonstrate that indeed we were really among the elect as evidenced by how well we keep the law. You can do a google search on “the federal vision” doctrine among Reformed, and you will find that this is so similar to Adventism that it will scare you. Michael Horton and the White Horse Inn condemned this form of Romanism in no uncertain terms one evening on the radio show.

All Christians are subject to the same sin of legalism and Pelagianism, which is the religion of the natural man, and all of us need to keep fighting the good fight FOR THE GOSPEL. I no longer have a passion to continually attack the church of my youth (SDA) as I used to do. The longer I mingle in other evangelical circles, I realize that SDA is not much different than many other churches.

What this means however, is that we need to fight even more for the great Reformation truths such as monergistic regeneration and justification by faith alone. These doctrines are being attacked from all sides. Reformation faith is no longer considered relevant in many circles, and it is said that the postmodern mindset no longer cares about these doctrines. Thankfully, this is not necessarily the case, as there is a new youth movement who are embracing the great doctrines espoused by Jesus and the apostles as well as Luther and Calvin. This is why the White Horse Inn folks http://www.whitehorseinn.org have meant so much in encouraging me in my Christian journey and motivating me to fight for the great themes of the gospel, and to not compromise with those who want to say “Let’s not discuss doctrine, let’s just all love Jesus”. But how do we love God? We love Him with all our MINDS, as well as souls and hearts, and Jesus spent a lot of time talking about election and grace.

Don’t get me wrong. We do need to continue to point out the errors of the SDA church, and minister effectively to those still in SDA as our brother Gabriel and many others are doing. I still want to do that. But demonizing SDA without replacing it with genuine Christianity will not be helpful in the long run. Remember the parable Jesus told about the house that was swept clean of the demons? But because the house was not regenerated, then the condition of that house or soul became worse later than before the demons were cast out.

Besides the Pelagian errors, Adventism’s other major serious problem is dealing with Ellen White. Her writings color the way SDAs view the Bible. She was not what she claimed to be. She never had any genuine visions from God. Her visions were the result of her underlying mental illness. I will not judge whether she really knew the Lord, but for the record Dr. Martin concluded from reading many volumes of her works, that she was a Christian woman who was just badly mistaken in many areas. I am not sure I can agree with him, but I don’t have to worry about Ellen White. She should be made totally irrelevant in the SDA church, and in practise, many So Cal churches pay no attention to her at all and are considering her increasingly irrelevant, but unfortunately, these same churches are throwing out the relevance of diligent Bible study as well, and these churches are becoming social clubs or as in the case of the LLUMC church, has become much like the Seeker churches of the Rick Warren variety.

I am of the belief that the entire professing Christian church needs to be evangelized including Catholics and SDAs as well as more orthodox churches. I fear too many people are being lulled to sleep by all the sweet talking sermons and entertaining rock music. They are told they are saved, and may not be saved. The doctrines of grace are anathema to the majority of the professing church. As Martin Luther said, there is only a remnant who have not bowed the knee to Baal, when he was arguing for the doctrine of the bondage of the will. It didn’t matter one whit to Luther that most of the church fathers believed in free-will with regard to salvation, when he knew that the Bible clearly does not teach this man made doctrine.

I am proud, but at the same time humbled, to stand in the tradition of the Reformers who rediscovered the truths that Jesus and the apostles have taught all along. These great truths of the gospel will always conflict with man’s prideful religion which exists throughout the professing church today.

So Gabriel my dear brother, keep up the good work in ministering to the SDAs in your community where you are. As God took the veil off your eyes, he will sovereignly work to bring to faith those with whom you are witnessing.

Soli Deo Gloria!

Stan

Dan,

Thank you for sharing your deep humility and love for God and for your brother.  After a full day of unrelentless motion (physically and mentally), your words brought a peace and calm to my heart.  I really appreciate your openness in sharing your faith.  I think the comfort and serenity of your devotion (for The One who died that we may all experience His peace that passes understanding) could well be what the Holy Spirit uses the most to expose the “angst” of Adventism to your brother. 

As you learn more and more about the SDA doctrines, you will better understand why he is so “tormented” in his thoughts as they relate to the Catholic church and the Sabbath.  From my own experience, that is why the Sabbath was so special to me - it was the one day of the week that I could find some sense of peace from my relationship with God, as I was “commanded” to leave “secular” out for a 24 hour period - and just “rest”.  That essentially was all I had as a relationship with God - one day and a church.

As a SDA, what really began as the beginning of all my questions was seeing non-SDA Christians so open, humble and genuine in their devotion to Jesus Christ.  It wasn’t forced, it wasn’t embarassing; it was joyful, living, outloud and openly - every single day.  It blew me away.  Nobody was afraid of being good enough.  Nobody was judging someone else’s appearance (i.e. jewlery, makeup).  Nobody was judging diets or religious practices (i.e. Sabbath activities).  There was just open praise and worship in graditude of grace.  WOW!

As you continue to follow God’s leading in your search for knowledge of SDA bondage, keep praising and sharing.  That will be as eye-opening to your brother as the insight you are gleaning.

Again, thank you for the special lift in my busy day.

Blessings,
Denise

Stan,

You have asked a couple of very good questions.

“What if I don’t abide enough?

“What does it mean to abide in Christ?”

If our salvation is dependent on “OUR” ability to abide, or how much we abide, does that not make our salvation dependent on our actions, and not those of Christ?

Is our ability to abide, determined by whether or not we are elected?

Or if we seem to fail, does that just mean we were never actually elected, or abiding well enough?

Thank-you for your thought provoking post, it has helped me focus on something other than my exhaustion and fatigue today.

Randy

Stan,

I so much agree with your statement..."The longer I mingle in other evangelical circles, I realize that SDA is not much different than many other churches.”

My children have attended a non-denominational Christian school (this school was actually instrumental in bringing Jesus and grace to the forefront of my life back in 1997).  Last year we pulled my then freshman daughter out of school in part due to the legalistic demands the school was placing on the high school students.  I also stopped attending the non-denominational Bible study I had been in for 7 years because of all the talk of “doing” and “showing/proving” love to God.

The longer I have been out of SDA bondage, the more I see that legalism is alive and well throughout Christianity.  This knowledge has “softened” my heart towards Adventists, as I have been pretty judgmental and harsh in my stance against them.  I have found it is just as easy to put myself in bondage now as a former as it was when I was SDA just by being harsh and critical.

If God can use my experience of living in Adventism and my walk into freedom, then I give Him all the glory and thank Him for the tough times He has walked through with me.

Give me Jesus,
Denise

Stan,

Like Randy and Denise, I am in the middle of an exhausting day. Your insightful post lifted my mood and gave me plenty to think about. Gabriel has also raised some important questions that we should carefully examine. I hope to do this later when my time is in greater supply.

Putting it simply, I think the sins of evangelical Christianity are compounded in Adventism, but the underlying man-centered religion is the common theme. Our basic human instinct seems to be that we need to prove our loyalty to God, and much of the Christian world is only too happy to feed into this belief.

If we could start with the idea that God is the prime Cause of our faith, we would not need to work up the energy to “prove” anything to Him. Obedience to Him is the highest privilege we have, and while our obedience is far from perfect, we long to do His will because of what He has already done for us.

Thanks to everyone here for sharing the work He has begun in you (Philippians 1:6).

Greg

Hi Greg,

I have been a long time away from 4TG.  I have not looked back into the archives of the forum but I am assuming you and your family are moved and settled by now...am I right in my assumption?

I hope everything has gone well for all of you.  You have been in my prayers. 

Did you send us your weather?  We are battling slippery roads and about 6 inches of snow. 

Thanks for your quick synopsis above.  You said much more beautifully what I was trying to say.

Good to see you.
Denise

Posted anonymously by: Dan Hagan

All,

May my points made here be Christ-like and not prideful!

Stan, So much of what you said I agree with a certain cautionary concern:

First, you noted the statement from Gabriel’s quote: “It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ,...”

Then you quoted Chuck Smith: “As long as WE abide in Christ, we are eternally secure.”

Then you start your CC -v- SDA loose comparison with the statement: “What does it mean to abide in Christ? If our salvation is dependent on US abiding, then does that give us full assurance of salvation? What if I don’t abide enough?  So how does the CC leader’s statement differ significantly from the SDA… “

You ask: “What if I don’t abide enough?”

By the time I read this far the “earning salvation/performance” alarms were going off loudly.  I’m not very adept at finding relevant scripture; but I believe as disciples of Christ we fully realize that we do not choose, we are chosen. And that we do not travel to Christ, but He travels the distance (does the work) to come to us; and as one of the Elect it is natural for us to thankfully accept His invitation.

You also ask: “What does it mean to abide in Christ?”

Regarding how much we need to “abide” in Christ; I feel that you either do or you don’t. There are no gradations: John 15:4 KJV “Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.” The branch is either connected and thrives by the succor of the vine or it is not connected and it withers and dies.

Dare I say that you would not be where you are today in your quest for The Truth were you not connected (abiding in Christ).

Respectfully and prayerfully in Christ,

Dan…