Greg,

You said, “Obedience to Him is the highest privilege we have, and while our obedience is far from perfect, we long to do His will because of what He has done for us.”

This sounds very much like a variation of the mantra I hear from my Adventist friends, regarding keeping the 10 commandments (meaning the 4th).

I think where Adventism and greater Christianity differ however, is in what we understand we are to be obedient to. There is much confusion in this regard both in Adventism and in Christianity as a whole.

While in Adventism, my understanding was that obedience to Him was largely related to the 10 commandments. Since I have left Adventism, my understanding has changed.

As I have gained an understanding of the New Covenant, through studies in Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews, I have a sense that my previous understanding was incorrect.

I have come to believe now that obedience, and what Christ asks of us, his followers, is what we find in Matthew 22:37-40.

For to long Christianity and Adventism have become mired in checklists of do’s and don’t, and have spent far to much time differentiating ourselves on who’s checklist is most accurate.

I think your point that the sins of Christianity are compounded in Adventism is so true. I believe this has occurred because Adventism’s checklist is so much longer, due to the man made traditions of Ellen White. Not only do Adventists have to try and understand Old vs. New Covenant, they also have to include in their mix, the confusion of trying to understand God’s will as seen through the eyes and understanding of EGW. Something I believe to be impossible, and distinctly different than what Scripture asks of us.

I too hope the new home and job are going well.

Randy

Dan,

I will let Stan answer for himself, and I hope my questions didn’t confuse the situation.

My understanding of what Stan was saying is, that there is “significant error"” in the idea that we are saved only if we abide enough.

He was comparing Chuck Smith’s comment to the typical Adventist understanding that we are saved, as long as we continue to behave in an acceptable manner, hence OUR contributing to OUR own salvation. I believe Stan was pointing to the fallacy of that type of thinking. (correct me if I’m wrong Stan)

Dan, I think Stan’s understanding is very similar to yours, and some of the questions were rhetorical, and asked to make that point.

Randy

Posted anonymously by: Dan Hagan

Randy,

Thanks for opening my eyes to Stan’s intentions!  That actually makes more sense that I miss-understood his meaning, rather than Stan drifting toward such performance based thinking. It may be an invalid excuse on my part, but I may be overly sensitive in this area because of my brother’s situation with his SDA beliefs. I’m feeling very much like the freshman among the seniors here.  Thanks for being so kind and gentle in your correction.

I think I owe Stan an apology…

Dan…

Denise Hutton - 10 January 2008 12:15 PM

Hi Greg,

I have been a long time away from 4TG.  I have not looked back into the archives of the forum but I am assuming you and your family are moved and settled by now...am I right in my assumption?

I hope everything has gone well for all of you.  You have been in my prayers.

Denise, yes the move to the Northwest is complete. We’ve settled in and are now learning to enjoy the winter weather. We had historic rainfall a few miles south of us recently, but we fared pretty well. The natural beauty of this part of the world is truly amazing and is a testament to God’s creative power. Attached is a photo of Mount Rainier I took not long after arriving here.

Thanks for your prayers and it is great to see you on 4TG again. I hope you and your family are doing well and resting in God’s will.

Greg

RandyGerber - 10 January 2008 02:01 PM

Greg,
This sounds very much like a variation of the mantra I hear from my Adventist friends, regarding keeping the 10 commandments (meaning the 4th).

I think where Adventism and greater Christianity differ however, is in what we understand we are to be obedient to. There is much confusion in this regard both in Adventism and in Christianity as a whole.

While in Adventism, my understanding was that obedience to Him was largely related to the 10 commandments. Since I have left Adventism, my understanding has changed.

Randy, I’ve gone through something similar. The 10 commandments are certainly part of God’s revealed will, but not the entire picture. The Pharisees were similarly fixated on the written code and were busy adding new human restrictions to guard the keeping of God’s law. We can learn from Jesus’ response to this: “unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:20 ESV). The law has no power to save, but it does have the power to condemn and it has another very important function in pointing to Jesus (John 5:39, Romans 3:20-26, Galatians 3:23-26).

There is nothing wrong with the law when it is used lawfully (1 Timothy 1:8-11). As Christians, we do not fear the condemnation of the law, and we should look to see how the law is transformed and fulfilled by Jesus. In this way, we can wholeheartedly agree with the Psalmist who cried out, “Oh how I love your law! It is my meditation all the day.” (Psalm 119:97 ESV).

Greg

You said, “Obedience to Him is the highest privilege we have, and while our obedience is far from perfect, we long to do His will because of what He has done for us.”

This sounds very much like a variation of the mantra I hear from my Adventist friends, regarding keeping the 10 commandments (meaning the 4th).

Hi Randy,

At this point I’m asking the old question “Which was the first, the chicken or the egg?” Long time before the birth of the SDA church the protestant churches used this terminology to describe the reality that obedience is due to what he has done for us.
When adventists adopted the ideas, they modified it, since “what He has done for us” has a different meaning due to different understanding about the finished atonement, what Jesus has done, has already obtained for us.

For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. (Hebrews 10:14)

Yesterday I watched a sermon on the internet in which an adventist pastor expressed openly his disagreement with the idea that the perfection of Christ is imputed to us, and we are perfect in Him, saying that there is no possibility to transfer the character from one person to another. He said that the Bible does not teach this, and I was surprised since he is a relative young pastor with solid theological training.

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.2 Cor. 5:21

“In him we might become the righteousness of God” is treated very well in John Piper’s new book “The Future of Justification” which is available online as a PDF file on his site http://www.desiringgod.org. He dedicates the chapter 11 to show that imputation of Christs righteousness is a biblical truth.

Adventists are right when they affirm that God requires perfection of life. But if there is no possibility for Christ’s righteousness to be imputed to us, His cross had only resolved the problem of the condemnation we deserve for our sins. It is consequently left to ourselves to provide the perfection required, and in this situation, how can our obedience be a gratitude for what Jesus has done for us since it is left to ourselves the task of fulfilling the Law?

In the evangelical world there is a movement which denies the truth of the imputation of Christ’s obedience to us called the “New Perspective of Paul” N.T. Wright is involved in this movement and because he’s a popular speaker and writer beside a qualified scholar. the problem is that at the end of the day the gospel is less than good news because implicitly you must be obedient in order to realize what Jesus “has not done for you”. it is difficult, dare I say almost impossible, to be motivated by gratitude if your obedience is playing an essential role in your salvation. Instead of being obedient because you have been saved, you must be obedient to complete the salvation.

Thank God, Jesus provided everything we need for our salvation, present and future.

Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.  For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.  More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. Rom. 5:9-11

Gabriel

I appreciate this site and the willingness and spirit of most on this site when it comes to questioning adventism, I believe questioning the beliefs of any religous system is important.  I do not have sufficient time to completely weigh in on this topic, but I would like to interject a few words for now.  I first would like to admit that I am Adventist, I have obtained a BA in theology from an adventist college, and I am currently working in the lower levels of adventist pastoral leadership.  I say this not to boast or broadcast my education or resume but merely to point out that I have done studies, some more extensive then others on many adventist doctrines. I made it a point to do it independent of Ellen G Whites take on them.  This is for two reasons, one because I have long held issues with they way the church has viewed her and her writings and because I wanted to insure I can be in this church and be following the bible and not a person.  And I can say that I have arrived at a point where I can say I am an adventist in most respects, except in the case of Ellen Whites role and in some of the finer points of the investigative judgement which is a doctrine that is fraught with dangers of falling into legalistic tendencies. 
My point here is that I do not think it is fair to characterize all of Adventism as a group of Ellen White sychophants who would not have an identity as a christian group without her or her writings.  She undoubtedly held a large manner of influence over the early church, but I believe that one battle adventism has always had was to move themselves outside of the shadow of Ellen White and show that they can be a legitimate christian group without her influence.  Of course there has always been the factions in the church that support or oppose that. 
Without moving into the finer points of the investigative judgement which is at the heart of most opposition to Adventism I will say I completely believe in the Gospel, that there is nothing I can do to save myself, except for me to repent of my sins and to accept the free gift of Jesus Christ that will cover all my sins. 
I thank you for opening up this opportunity to discuss with adventists the theological differences we have instead of just lambasting us as a heretical cult that is controlled by the devil like so many others have.

I will post one more thought here.  Often the most vocal people among Adventists are often the most un balanced, semi ignorant, Ellen-White-is-God-and-your-works-save-you-type-people.  This of course leads to us being portrayed in a different light because the more well balanced among us rarely get a chance to speak.  This is a concept among all humanity that I believe is pointed out by the comedian Jeff Foxworthy when he says that the main problem with “rednecks” is that “they cant keep the most ignorant amongst them off the news..” The same may be able to be said of Adventists.

Ok I really have to respond to this. 

Amazingly, Seventh-day Adventists have always taken great pride in claiming to be “the final link of the Protestant Reformation.” Did the nineteenth-century Protestants really need to know about their anti-Trinitarianism, shut-door theology, investigative judgment alibi, Satan ultimately bearing our sins by blotting them out through his annihilation, Jesus had sinful flesh, Jesus could not see beyond the “portals of the tomb,” Jesus was on probation, Jesus could have failed his salvific mission, God’s image-bearers have no spirit entity, Darwin was right that we die just like animals, the Bible is not inerrant nor all-sufficient for Christian faith and practice, adding 100,000 pages of parascriptural writings, ad infinitum? 

Did these Adventist distinctives really complete the Protestant Reformation? Of course not!  Indeed, the Protestant world was much better off before hearing these so-called “special truths.” Moreover, those who embrace extrabiblical revelations are not really Protestants in the first place.  Let us wholeheartedly uphold the Five Solas (or slogans) that became the battle cry of the Protestant Reformation; namely, sola scriptura ("by Scripture alone"), sola fide ("by faith alone"), sola gratia ("by grace alone"), solus Christus ("by Christ alone"), and Soli Deo Gloria ("Glory to God alone").

Dennis Fischer

First of all please do not characterize/stereotype and slander an individual or group by seizing on all the things you hear, assume they are true, then string them all together like they are Gospel and use them to paint an organization in the worst possible light.  I have to be honest I feel like that is what you have done here.  With a little research into the history of the second geat awakening and william miller you will see Adventism was just one attempt to sort through the many facets of fanaticism that accompanied the mistake in 1844.  Please realize that we do not believe in the shut door theory, there were some that did, but it was quickly abandoned once its unscriptural basis was realized, despite the many opinions on ellen white, and the problems with some in my church elevating her to a problematic unscriptural level, she did later admit that she also ceased to believe in the shut door theory.  Investigation into our history and beliefs will also show that we believe in the trinity, and did not allow those that denied it to be considered members of the church, as for the other claims such us believing that the bible is not Innerant, or we support Darwin and evolution, or Jesus had sinful flesh, (a belief we specifically confirmed we did not have in our conversation with walter martin in the 50’s ) and various other ideas; im really not sure where you got them unless you were just looking for some more sensational claims to back up your attempt to paint Adventism in the worse possible light.  I am not trying to offend but merely say this, please realize that Adventists are not just a bunch ”anti-Trinitarianism, shut-door theology, investigative judgment alibi, Satan ultimately bearing our sins by blotting them out through his annihilation, Jesus had sinful flesh, Jesus could not see beyond the “portals of the tomb,” Jesus was on probation, Jesus could have failed his salvific mission, God’s image-bearers have no spirit entity, Darwin was right that we die just like animals, the Bible is not inerrant nor all-sufficient for Christian faith and practice, adding 100,000 pages of parascriptural writings” people but many are like other sincere christians in other denominations(none of which are perfect by the way, including my own) who are resolving to live their life as one who follows nothing but “Jesus Christ and him crucified.” So before you start spreading stuff like this realize the humans behind the denomination you are openly criticizing, and that many of them are searching for Christ as sincerely as you are.  So maybe we could stop the dogmatism here and actually start to try to understand each other.

Welcome Chiapet,

I just want to briefly speak to your comments on Dennis Fischer’s post. Dennis was also involved in ministry in the Adventist Church for many many years, and has a wealth of knowledge and understanding of Adventism, its history, the organization, and how it works.

I don’t think anybody here is slandering anybody, as all the things he noted were endorsed by Ellen White as present truth at some point in the denominations history, and many of them still are. As long as she is considered “an continuing and authoritative source of truth” by the Adventist Church, I think his criticisms are valid and need to be addressed.

I would also suggest that most here have also done significant study on Ellen White and her role in Adventism, and unlike yourself, could no longer feel comfortable professing her as a prophet or a messenger.

Whether Adventists currently believe all the things mentioned in Dennis’s post is really inconsequential, because if they still claim her as a prophet and she made most of her claims as direct, “I was shown’s”, it seems that she got several things wrong, and that speaks to the legitimacy of her gift(?).

As I am sure you know, Jan Paulsen affirmed unequivical support for Ellen White, the traditional interpretation of 1844, and the Investigative Judgment just 6 years ago in the Adventist Review. I see no change among official Adventism regarding these fundamentals, although there are many like yourself who continue to try and find authenticity in Adventism despite what its official beliefs are.

I thank you for your response Randy and just wanted to add one clarification.  Never did I say I was comfortable calling Ellen White a prophetess or infallible interpreter, please do not assume that just because I am Adventist means I prescribe to this unbalanced view that many in my denomination have held.  I along with several others in my denomination who were brought up in churches that misused Ellen White in so many ways, and have lifted her up to a position she never should have been, are much more willing to consider her more of a person heavily involved in the founding of the church and a fallible human being who made mistakes (this is obvious in her even temporary agreement with things like the shut door theory) versus an infallible interpreter and or prophet.  The point I was merely trying to make is I have seen posts on this site and others that been evidence of an extreme dislike and very strong feelings to the contrary of Adventism and possibly even a prejudice.  While this is understandable in light of the mistakes Adventism has made I still do not appreciate being branded when I like many others in the church are still sincere searchers for Christ.

By the way I would really like to know where we have ever denied the infallibility of scripture, agreed with Darwin and evolution, and claimed that Jesus could have failed his salvific mission???

ChiaPet - 30 January 2008 09:14 AM

Without moving into the finer points of the investigative judgement which is at the heart of most opposition to Adventism I will say I completely believe in the Gospel, that there is nothing I can do to save myself, except for me to repent of my sins and to accept the free gift of Jesus Christ that will cover all my sins.

Hi ChiaPet (I still remember that TV jingle from many years ago, Ch..ch..ch..Chia Pet ),

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and I am glad you are here. I highlighted what you said above, because I believe we have much common ground here. It is refreshing to hear from an Adventist who acknowledges the problems of the Investigative Judgment while simultaneously articulating a simple faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. I will have more to say about what you wrote in later posts, but I just wanted to thank you for your candor.

Greg

lol, yeah the screen name I choose for myself is related to the fact my last name ends with the letters “chia” which earned me the nickname “chiapet” in high school.  Needless to say the name has stuck!
Anyways I just wanted to say I appreciate your kind and candid response as well.  I believe it is important to discuss theological issues like this in a Christlike manner and I will always endeavour to do so.  I also apologize if my first few posts appeared to be anything besides Christlike.

ChiaPet - 30 January 2008 06:14 PM

Never did I say I was comfortable calling Ellen White a prophetess or infallible interpreter, please do not assume that just because I am Adventist means I prescribe to this unbalanced view that many in my denomination have held.

Chia, I want to press you a little bit on what you said here. It sounds like you are saying that those Adventists who hold Ellen White as a prophetess are “unbalanced”, and also that it is possible to be an Adventist in good standing without believing this. Many transitioning and former Adventists would raise their eyebrows at this, because as you are well aware, the church has an official position on Ellen White’s prophetic authority:

“18. The Gift of Prophecy: One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord’s messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)” (source here)

Chia, I wonder how you have been able to reconcile in your mind that most of your church is unbalanced while yourself remaining an Adventist, particularly in light of this fundamental belief statement.

The point I was merely trying to make is I have seen posts on this site and others that been evidence of an extreme dislike and very strong feelings to the contrary of Adventism and possibly even a prejudice.  While this is understandable in light of the mistakes Adventism has made I still do not appreciate being branded when I like many others in the church are still sincere searchers for Christ.

Speaking for myself, I try not to indict Adventists as a whole for the sins of a few individuals. However, I’ve been very disturbed by the repeated instances of church officials thwarting the efforts of honest men and women who have found problems in Adventist theology and in the prophetic claims of Ellen White. These individuals should have been met with kindness for the service they were doing to expose the errors of Adventism, yet at every turn, there were maligned or kicked out of the church. Examples include Canright, Ballanger and Ford, among others. As another example, when the men at the 1919 Bible Conference privately admitted to themselves that there were big problems in Ellen White’s writings and with the way they were being used, instead of coming clean to the church, they buried the topic altogether. As yet another example, when Walter Rea’s research on Ellen White’s plagiarism was presented to church administrators, he was privately assured that they would make every effort to come clean on his findings. Instead, they marginalized him and found their own man (Fred Veltman) to conduct a parallel research project which ultimately vindicated Rae, but the conclusions were never clearly articulated to the laity. The belief that Ellen White is an infallible interpreter of Scripture and “God’s prophet for these last days” is still widely tolerated within the denomination and there has been no concerted effort by the administrators to correct what they must know is patently false.

Many of us who are leaving or who have left Adventism are deeply troubled by how the church has handled the truth. My decision to leave was one of conscience and not of anger or impulse. I’d like to believe the church is changing, but I have yet to see any solid evidence to confirm this.

Greg