[quote author="DeeAnne"]At first, I thought you were literally saying that God has already chosen who He will let accept Him…

I hope that I’m understanding correctly what you said, you believed that we said something like this:

“God brings some people, kicking and scream—against their wills, into the kingdom, while he excludes others from his kingdom who desperately want to be there”

That is not our position, but usually people believe that we are saying this, is a common misunderstanding. For making clear what we are trying to say is that God does not save people against their will, He makes them willing, and saves them according to their wills.

The will of man in his lost state is settled against God’s will. “The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually” (Gen. 7:5 ESV) This is our condition before we are born again, we are flesh, “Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh” (Gen. 6:3 ESV)
As long as we are in this condition, we are lost for we cannot vote for God, we cannot take a decision against our nature. The Bible describes man’s condition as spiritual deadness, “And you were dead in the trespasses and sins” (Eph. 2:1) The solution is resurrection, God “even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ–by grace you have been saved” In the case of physical resurrection, if we would consult the dead bodies and ask them “Do you want to be saved from your lost condition or not? Here is our offer: “Believe in us and we will save you”, it’s easy to imagine how many will respond to the offer.

Here is the good news, that God makes us spiritually alive, implants in us life-giving principle, He gives us new desires, a new will, “for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (Phil. 2:13 ESV)We indeed repent, we believe, we want to be in heaven and God will not act against our wills, He will not say “Sorry, you are not part of the elect”. We certainly are, because we exercise faith, which is His gift for the elect. We would not be able to believe, we will not want God, we will not repent, we will reject God if we would not be a part of the elect. No true believer, coming to Christ in faith will find a closed door, Jesus said “whoever comes to me I will never cast out” (John 6:36 ESV)

In this sense, we may affirm that God acts in harmony with our wills. But the harmony between our wills and God’s will is not established by us, since we are in themselves “hostile” (Col. 1:21 ESV), but by God in a sovereign act. He’s not doing this for everybody, only for the elect. And the others who are not elected for life cannot protest, because they are “hostile” to God, and cannot claim any blessings, since they are destitute of faith. Since they reject God, God’s judgment is according to their will, they rejected salvation, they are consequently lost and God will not save them. In both cases, salvation and damnation, God acts in harmony with man’s decision. But this harmony with the will of man, either for salvation or damnation, is what God decides, not man.

Very important: “hostile” does not mean only openly hostile, it can mean a religious hostility toward God, legalism. The Jews, who were not openly hostile to God, were those who showed more hostility against Jesus Christ our Lord than the pagans who apparently lived a life of permanent hostility against God. Legalism is as much hostility, religiosity is as much hostility and lack of submission as paganism: “being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.” (Rom. 10:3 ESV) When God will send these “saints” in the lake of fire, He will still act in harmony with their wills: they rejected salvation by trying to save themselves. They “did not submit to God’s righteousness”.

Deacon, I’m sorry to hear that you were “hurt by the comment I was on a bridge to nowhere”, especially because it came from Spurgeon. I quoted Spurgeon, since he is well known for his love for sinners. He loved them, and out of love for you and the others who are reading these pages, I quoted from him. If it hurts you, I pray that you will find comfort instead of abrasiveness in his sermon. Even if we are debating here, I’m engaging in these debates because I believe people miss something very important, they miss God’s love in its full glory. In time of need, when everything seems to be against us, our anchor of soul remains the immutability of God’s saving decree in our favor, embodied in Christ’s Person and mission, in His perfect life and sacrifice made for His sheep, those given to Him by the Father. “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.” (Heb. 13:8 )

I cannot escape the logic of Spurgeon’s two questions

1. Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of all men?

If he died for all, and many will be lost, He didn’t secure the salvation for them

2. Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of any man in particular?

If any man has an equal chance to be saved, no one is more secure than another, and the security of those who will be lost is the same as the security of those who will be saved. There is no particular security here.

This is why Spurgeon talked about a bridge which does “not go all the way”, does not leave people safely to the other side. They must complete the journey by themselves. The illustration was meant by Spurgeon to arouse people to a better understanding of God’s love, and to put their feet on something secure and safe. It’s something beautiful, sweet, to be assured that God loves you in this way, and I quoted it because it really was a blessing for me and I meant it to be a blessing for you, dear Deacon. May God haste the day when you’ll no longer be hurt by it.

I will quote again from Spurgeon’s sermon about particular atonement,

Leaving controversy, however, I will now answer a question. Tell me, then, sir, whom did Christ die for? Will you answer me a question or two, and I will tell you whether He died for you. Do you want a Saviour? Do you feel that you need a Saviour? Are you this morning conscious of sin? Has the Holy Spirit taught you that you are lost? Then Christ died for you and you will be saved. Are you this morning conscious that you have no hope in the world but Christ? Do you feel that you of yourself cannot offer an atonement that can satisfy God’s justice? Have you given up all confidence in yourselves? And can you say upon your bended knees, “Lord, save, or I perish”? Christ died for you. If you are saying this morning, “I am as good as I ought to be; I can get to Heaven by my own good works,” then, remember, the Scripture says of Jesus, “I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” So long as you are in that state I have no atonement to preach to you. But if this morning you feel guilty, wretched, conscious of your guilt, and are ready to take Christ to be your only Saviour, I can not only say to you that you may be saved, but what is better still, that you will be saved. When you are stripped of everything, but hope in Christ, when you are prepared to come empty-handed and take Christ to be your all, and to be yourself nothing at all, then you may look up to Christ, and you may say, “Thou dear, Thou bleeding Lamb of God! thy griefs were endured for me; by thy stripes I am healed, and by thy sufferings I am pardoned.” And then see what peace of mind you will have; for if Christ has died for you, you cannot be lost. God will not punish twice for one thing. If God punished Christ for your sin, He will never punish you. “Payment, God’s justice cannot demand, first, at the bleeding surety’s hand, and then again at mine.” We can today, if we believe in Christ, march to the very throne of God, stand there, and if it is said, “Art thou guilty?” we can say, “Yes, guilty.” But if the question is put, “What have you to say why you should not be punished for your guilt?” We can answer, “Great God, Thy justice and Thy love are both guarantees that Thou wilt not punish us for sin; for didst Thou not punish Christ for sin for us? How canst Thou, then, be just–how canst Thou be God at all, if Thou dost punish Christ the substitute, and then punish man himself afterwards?” Your only question is, “Did Christ die for me?” And the only answer we can give is–"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ came into the world to save sinners.” Can you write your name down among the sinners–not among the complimentary sinners, but among those that feel it, bemoan it, lament it, seek mercy on account of it? Are you a sinner? That felt, that known, that professed, you are now invited to believe that Jesus Christ died for you, because you are a sinner; and you are bidden to cast yourself upon this great immovable rock, and find eternal security in the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.

May this message be a blessing for you, this is my prayer

Soli Deo Gloria,
To God be the Glory

Gabriel

Greg

I guess it was Gabriel who got to me. I am not be always right but I don’t deserve that.  I don’t know the Tinkers But this thread has really beat on them. I have no use for such behavior or writing.  I am 82 years old.  I spent 3 years in the army, 41 years in a public university, taught 8 years in a Jesuit University, Taught 8 years at Loma Linda, Served 18 years on varison boars of the SDA church. Service in every capacity in the local SDA churchs in Chicago, Milwaukee, Loma Linda, Augusta, Ga. The most cordial treatment I have received has been with the Jesuits. The worst I have received has been with SDA’s and former SDA’s.  I don’t need any more. I know Jesus Loves me and I am willing to leave it at that.  If I can tell someone else that Jesus loves them also.  I will be thrilled. To argue over vain doctrinal nonsense, count me out. the Deacon. 

[quote author="Deacon"]I guess it was Gabriel who got to me. I am not be always right but I don’t deserve that.

I’m so sorry to hear this, I hope at least Spurgeon did not offended you, as I’m afraid I did. Forgive me for the sins I committed against you.

For His Glory,

Gabriel

Spurgeon was a man of his time. Deacon.

Did you ever read his sermon on the landlord?  Deacom.

Hey Tom,

Please listen to me for just a minute. I do not desire to humiliate you or make you feel bad. I consider you my friend and I agree with you on many points. Please don’t take anything that has been said on this thread as a personal attack against you or your character. We are wrestling with Christian doctrine here, and this exercise is vitally important if we are to understand the truth God has revealed to us. Of course we will have disagreements. Church history bears witness to many strong disagreements between Christians. But being able to express disagreements is vitally important. For example, if we were not allowed to disagree with each other over biblical interpretation, the Protestant Reformation would never have happened and we’d still be buying indulgences from the Pope.

Please do not confuse what’s happening on this thread with any disagreements some of us have had with the Tinkers–this is entirely a different issue. Tom, you’ve publicly expressed very strong viewpoints about certain Adventist theologians and what some of us have said about the Tinkers is no different. To bring this up now only confuses the fact that we just don’t agree about certain key attributes of God as revealed in the Bible.

It seems to me, the problem here is that we’re somehow not allowed to have disagreements within the body of Christ. Maybe this is a more fruitful topic to discuss before moving on to the weightier matters of God’s sovereignty and election.

Greg

P.S. Thank you for your military service. I have tremendous respect for anyone who puts his life on the line for his fellow man, no matter what their theological beliefs.

Gabriel you are forgiven. Yet I must admit you are one smart ass to be defending Calvin. He killed his fair share of saints. 

I don’t believe in the fundamental beliefs of the SDA church. But I believe they have a right to them. I remain frineds with them.  I don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.  Just because the Whites’ clung to Methodism doesn’t mean that we have to fight all doctrine that comes under the pen of the White’s.

E.G. White is pure white in comparison to John Calvin or Martin Luther. They broke away from a failing system but they did not fall into all truth. Deacon.

Except for Neal Wilson et al. I have the fondest affection for SDA’s I pity a few of the front line evangelists with an empty message. I don’t think they are necessarily, from my perspective, on the broad way that leads to hell as you suggest.  I pray for them they are in between the Devil and the hard place.  Deacon. 

Gabriel you are forgiven. Yet I must admit you are one smart ass to be defending Calvin. He killed his fair share of saints.

I asked for forgiveness and I received forgiveness in the form of a “smart ass” label applied to myself. If I knew what I was asking for ...

Gabriel

Gabriel

What you were asking for was the truth. Yes you are forgiven. I added the rest to give you pause on how you respond to others with whom you disagree. Don’t place yourself in a position of superiority. We are all sinners and we are all save by Grace of Jesus Christ. Let us treat each other as among the redeemed not among those who pray: “I thank thee God I am not as other men are!  I am free to discuss.  I am not available to be abused or assigned to hell. May the Lord bless you as you grow, in the Lord Jesus Christ. He would not a bend reed brake or a smoking flax quench. Let us be as tender with each other as God has been with us.  Sorry for the blunt words. Deacon. 

[quote author="Deacon"]I am not available to be abused or assigned to hell.

I have not abused you or assigned you to hell. All I did was concentrate on Bible interpretations and the various views of the gospel. I apologized for possible misunderstandings created by the message. At every step I and Greg were forced to correct misunderstandings about what we believed. You reacted strongly against a straw man, against a distorted view of Calvinism. In my view, you were hurt by these misunderstandings, since I cannot find anything hurtful in the reformed gospel of Calvin and Luther. Nothing more, nothing less.

Gabriel

Gabriel you must not be familiar with Michaele Servetus or with the peasants revolt in Germany or the roles that Calvin and Luther played. Deacon.

I wish you no ill. I choose not to follow this Thread further.

I find: far too much self justification and too little Gospel. It seems that one up man ship is the order of the day. I do not have the stomach for such a dialog. What the Tinkers do or say has not moment in human circles and no impact on heaven.  I just thought to change the subject would help only to find that the same gotcha attitude exists.  Sorry. No hard feelings just don’t want to be a part of it.  Deacon. Goodby. 

Deacon,

I am really sorry to see the tone you have exhibited on this thread. You started this discussion with the following quote:

“I have serious differences with Adventism, Calvinism, [Arminianism], cultism. I have no differences with Paul or John or the synopic Gospels. Let us be for the Gospel.”
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Why is it that when we just quoted from the texts themselves, that such a defensive reaction occurred?

I think Greg and Gabriel were very gracious in their responses, and why would Gabriel have to apologize for quoting a great man of God such as Charles Spurgeon?

You made this comment about Spurgeon:

“Spurgeon was a man of his time. Deacon”
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Deacon, on what basis can you make this statement?

Spurgeon’s theology was not the theology of the times. Spurgeon was a contemporary of Ellen White, and by that time the Jesuit missionaries had already done their damage to the pure gospel of grace and corrupted it with the man centeredness of Roman theology.

Are you familiar with the downgrade controversy where Spurgeon fought the liberalism which Arminianism and semi-Pelagianism led to in the churches of his day?

Deacon, you also made this statement:

“E.G. White is pure white in comparison to John Calvin or Martin Luther. They broke away from a failing system but they did not fall into all truth. Deacon.”
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I don’t understand Deacon how you could write such a statement. It boggles my mind. It seems abundantly clear that you have much more in common with the errors of Adventism and Catholicism than you have with the Reformers.

How much of Martin Luther and John Calvin have you read?

Do you value at all the message that Desmond Ford preached on righteousness by faith, where he affirmed Luther’s breakthrough on Justification by faith alone?

You want to compare Ellen White, who knew absolutely nothing about the scriptures, and could barely read the KJV, much less know anything about the original languages of the Bible to men such as Luther, who translated the entire Bible from Latin into German? Or Calvin who wrote exhaustive commentaries on the entire Bible?

There is so much distorted and revisionist history that has been stated to discredit John Calvin, only because his theology is hated by so many professing Christians, because he dared to deal with what the Biblical texts actually say, and the same goes for Luther.

Are you aware of the great man of God, William Tyndale, who as part of the English Reformation translated the Bible into English for the first time?

What did the Roman Catholic church do to reward William Tyndale for his efforts? They hunted him down all over the country, and they burned him alive at the stake, for the crime of making the Bible available to the common people.

In the case you cited about Calvin when he was in charge over Geneva, Servetus was executed for the heresy of denying the Trinity. As it turned out, Calvin wanted the sentence reversed on Servetus, but did not have the power to stay the execution, but Calvin did go to the prison and intercede on Servetus behalf, and tried to give him the gospel, and this does not justify this, but does put it into perspective.

To say that Ellen White was pure white in comparison to Luther and Calvin is really insulting to all the martyrs who died at the hands of the Roman Catholic Church,(which includes your friends the Jesuits).

Deacon, what side do you want to be defending? You seem to be doing a fine job defending the SDA church and the Roman Catholic Church? Would you rather be on their side of the salvation by works question than on the side of the Reformers who preached the pure message of salvation by grace through faith alone? Did the martyrs die in vain defending the faith of Jesus, the Apostles, and the Reformers? Or would you rather be on the side of Rome who attacks the simple and true faith of the Reformers?

Deacon also wrote this:

“Gabriel you are forgiven. Yet I must admit you are one smart ass to be defending Calvin. He killed his fair share of saints.”
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Deacon,

Would you like to take back this insulting statement made to our dear brother Gabriel? I think you are the one who has come on this thread in an insulting manner.

I hate to see you leave our discussions on a rather bitter tone, after you have been gracious in so many ways since coming on here.

But thanks for your participation. Your responses to our posts are not unusual to what is found in popular Christianity today. The message of Jesus, the Apostles, and the Reformers is not a popular message. The purest form of the gospel--that we are saved without one bit of our own contribution (not even our free will) makes people angry. Discussing this topic is forbidden in many churches, and on many web sites, it is either forbidden, or the discussion is relegated to members only sections.

But this message was not popular in Jesus day, as in John 6 we read how everyone loved Jesus for the miracle of feeding the five thousand. But as Jesus started preaching His clearly “Calvinist” message in John 6:37,44,65, notice what happened:

“It is the SPIRIT who GIVES life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65And he said, “This is why I told you that NO ONE CAN come to me UNLESS it is GRANTED him by the Father.”
66( After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?"(John 6:63-67)
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Everyone had slinked away except the twelve disciples. This was the most unpopular sermon of Jesus ever recorded, and He succeeded in driving everyone away except his own disciples

So the pattern continues today among the religious people of our day. They want to have a gospel which is palatable to the masses. They stage rock concerts, and water down the gospel so much that it is not recognizable when compared to the actual text of scripture.

Thanks Deacon for your many contributions on this site. You have been an encouraging voice during my wife’s illness, and have made other positive contributions. I hope you don’t leave us, and I would pray that you prayerfully consider the scriptures quoted on this thread. The scriptures are our final authority, and it is not Calvin, Luther, or anyone of us. We must all wrestle with the inerrant and infallible Word of the Living God.

May God continue to bless you Deacon.

To God Alone Be the Glory was the great cry of the Reformation, and in the Latin it is

Soli Deo Gloria

Stan

Stan

Yes I have read Calvin and Luther. More Luther than Calvin.
I have also read their history of murder in the name of God. The basis of my comparison with E.G.White.  I believe she will have to answer in the judgment for the terror she has caused in the hearts of men and women over 160 years.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to apologize to you, Greg, and Gabriel. It was an unchristian comment. But assigning me to the lake of fire by inference wasn’t all that kind either.  I have been assigned to hell so often that with the death of a dear sister this past week and placing our house up for sale due to age--I guess my tone was touchy.  I do sincerely apology. I know I over reacted to what seemed at the time to be over the top--to imply he was going through but I was at the end of the bridge in the middle of the lake--fire was implied.  Gabriel please accept my apology for jumping ahead in my assumptions.

P.S. Most of my reading on Calvin have been from Hodges, and Berkhof.  I have learned much from them. But still reject the primary premise that God at the foundation of the earth predetermined who would be saved and who lost. and that He fashioned evil men to do His bidding. Tom Zwemer

Stan

Yes I have read Calvin and Luther. More Luther than Calvin.
I have also read their history of murder in the name of God. The basis of my comparison with E.G.White.  I believe she will have to answer in the judgment for the terror she has caused in the hearts of men and women over 160 years.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to apologize to you, Greg, and Gabriel. It was an unchristian comment. But assigning me to the lake of fire by inference wasn’t all that kind either.  I have been assigned to hell so often that with the death of a dear sister this past week and placing our house up for sale due to age--I guess my tone was touchy.  I do sincerely apology. I know I over reacted to what seemed at the time to be over the top--to imply he was going through but I was at the end of the bridge in the middle of the lake--fire was implied.  Gabriel please accept my apology for jumping ahead in my assumptions.

P.S. Most of my reading on Calvin have been from Hodges, and Berkhof.  I have learned much from them. But still reject the primary premise that God at the foundation of the earth predetermined who would be saved and who lost. and that He fashioned evil men to do His bidding. Tom Zwemer

Tom,

Thank you for your apology. We could all use some time to “cool off” and this is probably the best place to put an end to the debate, which won’t be settled to everyone’s satisfaction this side of heaven. Let us agree that we don’t contribute anything to our salvation which is God’s unmerited gift to us on account of Jesus. Let us also agree to put our overinflated egos aside, working out our salvation diligently and in a way that brings honor and glory to Him.

Tom, I am very sorry to hear of what’s happening to you and your family. All debating aside, I will be on my knees tonight in prayer for you and your wife, as well as for the rest of your family who is no doubt suffering a tremendous loss this week. Having lost my father two years ago, I know but a part of what you are going through.

With love in Christ,

Greg

thansk Greg. Stan challenged a number of my statements.
At his request, I will give him citations.  Deacon.