Those who leave the SDA church
Posted: 02 December 2007 03:47 AM   [ Ignore ]  
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I need some further advice.  My cousin left the GC and withdrew their membership 1.5 years ago as they said that there are faulty leaders who have walked away from the Truth and are teaching errors.  He said he doesn’t need to be part of the GC to be saved.

Ellen White is clear that those who leave are on the wrong track as there have always been faulty leaders and God never started a new organization because of that but because light was rejected which SDA church has not done.

Any biblical advice or any more advice from sister White?  I may have most of sister white’s comments on such, but please send all you have smile

God bless,
Greg

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Posted: 02 December 2007 09:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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Welcome Greg to 4TG.

This may come as a shock to you but the SDA church is not God’s exclusive church on earth. I would say they are not even a true evangelical church.

The New Testament knows nothing about an exclusive church on earth whether it is the papacy of Rome or whether it is through the GC of SDA.

Ellen White’s writings contradict the scriptures in many areas, therefore her advice cannot be trusted.

The only Remnant church the Bible knows about is the church that is a remnant chosen by grace in Romans 11:1-6. It is a remnant chosen by grace, and not chosen by what day you keep or what foods you eat. It is only by grace that we are saved thru faith, and not by belonging to a certain denomination.

Stan

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Posted: 02 December 2007 10:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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That’s interesting Stan.  where do her writings contradict scripture?

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Posted: 02 December 2007 04:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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Hi grpast,

Welcome to you and Greg. Stan will no doubt weigh in on your question. There are several things I could point to, but I’ll focus on just two.

Dietary Prohibitions
It is no secret that Ellen White wrote at length about which foods were acceptable for human consumption. She specifically forbade unclean meats, dairy products, alcohol, coffee and tea, to name a few.

But God’s Word stands in sharp distinction to this teaching, as the following texts make clear.

Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything. But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. And for your lifeblood I will require a reckoning: from every beast I will require it and from man. From his fellow man I will require a reckoning for the life of man.” (Genesis 9:3-4 ESV)

“One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him.” (Romans 14:2-3 ESV)

“Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats.” (Romans 14:20 ESV)

“Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience.” (1 Corinthians 10:25 ESV)

“Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.” (1 Timothy 4:1-5 ESV)

“And he called the people to him again and said to them, ‘Hear me, all of you, and understand: There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.’ And when he had entered the house and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. And he said to them, ‘Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?’ (Thus he declared all foods clean.) And he said, ‘What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.’” (Mark 7:14-23 ESV)

Usurping the Authority of Christ

Using the language of Hebrews 1:1-2 to describe her own authority, Ellen White wrote, “In ancient times God spoke to men by the mouth of prophets and apostles. In these days He speaks to them by the testimonies of His Spirit.” Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 661 (1889)

Comparing these words to Hebrews 1:1-2 shows us that Ellen White placed herself in the position reserved only for Jesus Christ:

“Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son...” (Hebrews 1:1-2 ESV)

These two examples are literally the tip of the iceberg. It displeases me to discuss this any more than is absolutely necessary, since I’d much rather focus on the positive aspects of the gospel and biblical teaching. But the question was raised and it is a valid one. We neglect our biblical duty defend the faith delivered once and for all to the saints (Jude 1:3) if we simply allow anyone who claims to be a prophet to speak without comparing what they say to God’s Word. The apostle Paul commended the Bereans for testing his teachings against the Scriptures (Acts 17:11), and we should not shy away from doing the same with Ellen White.

Greg

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Posted: 03 December 2007 12:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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I will address one thing at a time.  First let’s look at what Paul is REALLY saying.

1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

Who are the ones spoken of as being the “weak” ones? Unquestionably, it is those who choose to eat only herbs (vegetables). The vegetarians are the ones spoken of as being “weak.” Paul doesn’t mention the word “strong” here for the non-vegetarians, but it is implied. In the next chapter (Romans 15:1) Paul admonishes, “We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.”

Clearly, in this passage those who eat only herbs are considered “weak” in the faith. But now let’s turn to a well-known story in the book of Daniel. Daniel 1:5-20:

5And the king appointed them a daily provision of the king’s meat, and of the wine which he drank: so nourishing them three years, that at the end thereof they might stand before the king. 6Now among these were of the children of Judah, Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah: 7Unto whom the prince of the eunuchs gave names: for he gave unto Daniel the name of Belteshazzar; and to Hananiah, of Shadrach; and to Mishael, of Meshach; and to Azariah, of Abednego. 8But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king’s meat, nor with the wine which he drank: therefore he requested of the prince of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself… 11Then said Daniel to Melzar… 12Prove thy servants, I beseech thee, ten days; and let them give us pulse [vegetables] to eat, and water to drink… 18Now at the end of the days that the king had said he should bring them in, then the prince of the eunuchs brought them in before Nebuchadnezzar. 19And the king communed with them; and among them all was found none like Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah: therefore stood they before the king. 20And in all matters of wisdom and understanding, that the king enquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers that were in all his realm.

Let’s ask a simple question: In the passage above, would we consider Daniel and the three Hebrew worthies “weak” in the faith? Were they weak for insisting on eating only vegetables? If we are honest with the Word, we would have to answer, No. The fact is, Daniel and his companions were standing with utmost courage against the great Babylonian conquerors. They were captives in exile. They were being offered an enormous incentive to obtain the best training and opportunities that could be afforded them. Under threat of death, they stood firm for their beliefs and refused the king’s meat and wine and instead opted for a simple vegetarian diet. “Weak” would just not be a good word to describe these faithful Hebrew exiles. So what makes the difference between them and the vegetarians spoken of by Paul in Romans? Perhaps Paul can give us a clue. Let’s turn over to the book of 1 Corinthians. Scholars estimate that this book was written about one year apart from the book of Romans.

1 Corinthians Chapter 8:

1Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. 2And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. 3But if any man love God, the same is known of him. 4As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. 5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 7Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. 8But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse. 9But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. 10For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol’s temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; 11And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. 13Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

What is the issue in 1 Corinthians 8? Simply this: Certain Christians had knowledge that an idol is nothing. It has no real power. It’s just a stone or piece of wood. The old pagan practice of offering flesh food to idols before bringing it into the market place to be sold, was causing certain Christian converts to avoid eating flesh food altogether. These Christians believed they should not eat food that had been offered to idols. But Paul knew better. He realized that an idol was nothing. He really could care less if his food had been consecrated to an idol. It meant nothing to him. He was at “liberty”; strong in the faith. But for others, their religion was more restrictive in that they believed they must follow a rigorous set of rules to remain free of guilt. Being “weak,” their conscience did not allow them to eat food offered to idols. Therefore, to be on the safe side, they chose not to eat flesh foods altogether, instead opting for herbs only.

Paul’s main point in this chapter is that the strong should not be a stumblingblock to their weaker brethren by callously exercising their own “liberty.” To do so would be to “sin against Christ.” Charity (love) is better than mere knowledge, because knowledge, apart from charity, only puffs up. Summarizing his point, Paul states that if necessary he will not eat “flesh” food so as not to offend his brother. [Please note that the word, “meat” means food in a general sense, while the word, “flesh” means animal flesh food.]

The parallels between this passage and Romans 14 are unmistakable. The issue is not one of dietary concern or of clean versus unclean meats in dietary sense; the issue is that of food being offered to idols and how fellow Christians should relate to each other in that regard.

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Posted: 03 December 2007 02:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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Hi grpast,

I have followed you back to Daniel, but I don’t think the texts you’ve assembled support Ellen White’s dietary prohibitions. I agree that Paul seems to have food sacrificed to idols in mind on several occasions, but there’s also no mistaking his teaching about flesh foods being acceptable for human consumption (1 Corinthians 10:25, 1 Timothy 4:1-5). This teaching wasn’t limited to Paul. We know that the apostle Peter “lived like a Gentile” when he was around Gentiles, and only put on the mask of Jewish practices when the “men of James” were around (Galatians 2:11-14). We also know that at the Jerusalem council, when the issue of enjoining Jewish laws upon the Gentile believers came up, the only food prohibitions mentioned were avoidance of foods sacrificed to idols, food with the blood still in it, and meat from animals that were strangled (Acts 15:29). There’s just no way to conclude the apostles were recommending vegetarianism. As observant Jews, the apostles and Jesus would have eaten fish and lamb as part of their meals, and what’s more, Jesus declared all foods “clean” (Mark 7:18-19).

All of this biblical evidence raises a critical question. Where did Ellen White get the authority–almost two millenia after Jesus and the apostles walked the earth–to overturn their inspired counsel and enjoin new dietary prohibitions on her followers?

Greg

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Posted: 03 December 2007 05:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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Hi grpast,

The most serious contradiction between Ellen White and the Bible has to do with her visions regarding Christ going from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place in 1844, to start another work of redemption.

11"When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the MOST HOLY PLACE ONCE FOR ALL by his own blood, having OBTAINED eternal redemption.” (Heb 9:11,12 NIV)
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So this says definitively that Christ entered the MHP once for all when he ascended to the throne in the first century, and not 1844.

And now going to Hebrews 10:

11"Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had OFFERED FOR ALL TIME ONE SACRIFICE FOR SINS, he SAT DOWN at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he WAITS for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.” (Heb. 10:11-14 NIV)
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So what does Ellen White say?

She had a vision around 1858 where she saw Christ “STAND UP” (from the symbolic seated position waiting for his enemies to become his footstool in the text above), and opened the door to the Most Holy Place in 1844, to start another work of redemption.

In “Great Controversy” she quite boldly states that ‘in 1844 one door of salvation was closed, but another door of salvation was opened.’(I will have to find the exact page and quote). ‘She says that for 1800 years, men entered salvation by the Holy Place ministry, but that a new door of salvation was opened in 1844, and she said that those who did not accept this new way of salvation was rejecting vital truth, and the churches who rejected this 1844 message were now praying to Satan!

So, Greg, it is very clear that Ellen White taught another gospel, and not the true gospel. The writer to the Hebrews would not recognize this false gospel Ellen White was teaching.

Ellen White’s vision clearly contradicted the clearest evidence from the book of Hebrews.

Stan

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Posted: 04 December 2007 03:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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Posted anonymously by: Greg S

So, if someone tells you that Pork, for example, is not for eating or fit for food and then 10 years later, that same person knowing the same things about that food and that is is unfit for eating says.......Thanks for coming to the restaurant with me, order whatever you want..... Do you REALLY believe that the person means anything to include that which was forbidden and not fit for food in the first place?  Medicine shows the dangers of many things including certain meats and even clean ones these days with what man has done to them by drugs and pesticides etc and you really think its ok to eat anything now?

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Posted: 04 December 2007 03:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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Greg S(not verified),

Referring to your last post,

It really isn’t what WE think. What is important here is whether or not we are willing to take the words of Jesus and Paul at face value. Greg, posted several verses that spoke to the freedom afforded Christians regarding Diet and Days.

We are free to choose what we eat, and what day we worship on. That is the whole point. We have that freedom through Christ, we are no longer under the Mosaic Covenant.

As an Adventist, you are also free to eat and worship as you please, understanding that it has nothing to do with your salvation.

Blessings on your journey.

Randy

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Posted: 04 December 2007 04:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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Greg S,

Since the person invited me at least for a second time, obviously it is not a stranger, and I’ll dare to ask him to give a reason, to provide an explanation for what seems to me a contradiction. Since here God is involved, asking God will imply consulting him in prayer and study of his word.

Personally, in my spiritual journey, when I studied the subject of foods, one of the key texts for me was found in Hebrews 9. After describing shortly the furniture of the earthly sanctuary, the author of the epistle to Hebrews says:

“According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper, but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.” Heb. 9:9,10

It’s not very hard to understand that the issue of food is included in the ceremonial system, and as we easily understand the temporal value of the ceremonial system, it will be not hard to understand the role of food as a part of this system.

Gabriel

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Posted: 05 December 2007 04:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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Meat is dangerous.  Vegetables are dangerous.

Do we really want a sterilized world?  People are afraid of virtually everything from the drinking water available through the tap to the dirty nuclear weapons that may be unleashed on our nation.

Get over the fear.  Jesus set us free from EVERYTHING, most particularly fear of the things of the world.  Do not fear those than can kill only the body (Mad Cow diseased beef, spinach with e-coli, evil terrorists.) The only fear that is righteous is the fear of the Lord who can kill both body and soul.

Don’t forget that several years ago, many people died eating my favorite food, watermelon.  A pesticide that should not have been used for that fruit was used and the pesticide entered the melon, resulting in the poisoning deaths of several people.

How about spinach?  Here in California, spinach has been a major concern for going on two years now.

So much for the supposed safety of vegetables.

BTW, God could have made animals out of anything.  He chose to make them out of meat.  Sounds like an invitation to me!

It takes less faith for me to order a burger at Jack-In-the-Box than to order a salad at a restaurant.

Steve

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Posted: 08 December 2007 03:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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Hi Steve,

Good to hear from you again. You make some escellent points, and I agree with you, but I am not sure about Jack-in the box? (smiley)

Stan

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Posted: 01 January 2008 11:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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Posted anonymously by: jurgens

I read on http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com that the sister’s favorite delicassy was OYSTERS! yak

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