I spend (too much) time viewing CARM at the forum “Churches — heterodox — Seventh Day Adventism”,
growing discouraged by the ‘fanatical’ attacks by the extremists on both sides of the endless debates I decided a change would be good and went to the forum “Theology - Arminianism & Calvinism” — same extremism, as I understand it, the MJ forum and others are similar. In comparison 4TG is a model of decorum (with rare exceptions). The question I have is; what fosters such vehemence? How can a discussion of God’s word lead to venom and personal attacks?

Puzzled

John Douglas

[quote author="JONVIL"]I spend (too much) time viewing CARM at the forum “Churches — heterodox — Seventh Day Adventism”,
growing discouraged by the ‘fanatical’ attacks by the extremists on both sides of the endless debates I decided a change would be good and went to the forum “Theology - Arminianism & Calvinism” — same extremism, as I understand it, the MJ forum and others are similar. In comparison 4TG is a model of decorum (with rare exceptions). The question I have is; what fosters such vehemence? How can a discussion of God’s word lead to venom and personal attacks?

Puzzled

John Douglas

Hey John,

I am not sure of the forums you are referring to, but feel free to link them. What is the MJ forum?

There is a lot of dirty Calvinism on the discussion forums. There are some who call thenselves “Reformed” or Calvinists who indeed may not really be truly chosen and regenerated.

The great truths of Reformed Christianity and of sovereign grace are too precious to continuously wrap these truths in rancorous discussion. You titled this thread appropriately “Hyper”.. and a good portion of what goes on in the name of Calvinism is either hypercalvinism or ungracious unregenerate Calvinism, or they may be immature Christians who need more of the fruit of the spirit.

But having said that, it seems that it is the Arminian side of the argument that is most ungracious. As an example of this ungracious spirit, I still have to point to one of the largest independent churches in America, my former church, “Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa” and their large chain of churches, of which former SDA Mark Martin is part of in Phoenix. But this group has been at the forefront in attacking the Calvinist viewpoint. They sponsor seminars put on by Dave Hunt attacking Calvinsism as a false gospel and even bordering on blasphemy. CC Costa Mesa left a CC missionary stranded overseas, and wouldn’t pay his plane ticket back home because he admitted to becoming a Calvinist. That missionary was terminated on the spot, and had to pay his own flight back home. This is the church that is most frequently attended by former SDAs who are evangelical and leave SDA, and it is certainly better than SDA, but in many ways is very similar in the tactics used to control information and to become intolerant of those who differ.

On the other hand Jonvil, you are familiar with the gracious spirit of the folks on the White Horse Inn at http://www.whitehorseinn.org and the care that they give to these glorious truths of the Reformed faith.

Today, I heard a wonderful sermon by RC Sproul on the issue of theology and it’s importance. He made the point that it is a sin to have wrong theology. He is especially talking about those who knowingly teach false theology. However, the basic truths of the gospel and the Reformed faith are so clear, that the reason most will not embrace these truths is because they come to the Bible with their own preconceived notions about what they think the Bible says, and just will not take what the actual texts say literally.

Thanks Jonvil for starting this thread. We are just about to go out of town to our condo in Arizona, so I may not be able to participate until returning home next week, but look forward to dialoguing more then.

Stan

Jonvil,

I’ve also wondered the same thing. One of my first experiences in the early days of leaving Adventism was my participation in a long debate on Richard O’Ffill’s forum “Revival Sermons”. Looking back through the lens of time, I can see that part of what fueled my continued participation there was the pride I had in what I believed to be a superior theological position. When someone is bitterly opposing what you know to be true and can prove biblically, it’s tempting to demonize him and puff yourself up in the process.

This is exactly what I believe has happened in so many corners of the Internet. Instead of carefully handling the double-edged sword that is the Word of God, too often we see people with minimal theological depth and training running around with a bloody weapon, looking for the next “kill”.

At some point, we must be able to look ourselves in the mirror and admit, “I’m just like that other guy, and until recently, I was in his shoes”. Only then can we begin to appreciate the tremendous privilege we have as Christian evangelists and the absolute humility that comes with the knowledge of God and His Word.

In no way do I want to downplay the necessity of teaching good doctrine and “rightly dividing the word of truth”. Getting the gospel right and faithfully proclaiming its message is a huge responsibility. But I think we are fooling ourselves if we believe this can be boiled down to a battle between current and former Adventists. As Stan said, much of the more “orthodox” evangelical church is preaching a message lacking the power to save souls, which is precisely what we have accused Adventists of doing. This should humble us and cause us to think twice before drawing the battle lines in a way that includes everyone but our Adventist friends. God’s elect are all over the place (even in Adventism) and by sharing the good news, we hope to see that number increase.

Along these lines, here’s something I read from John Calvin recently:

[quote author="John Calvin"]
The gospel is not a doctrine of tongue, but of life.

It cannot be grasped by reason and memory only, but it is fully understood when it possesses the whole soul and penetrates to the inner recesses of the heart.

Let nominal Christians cease from insulting God by boasting themselves to be what they are not, and let them show themselves disciples not unworthy of Christ, their Master.

We must assign first place to the knowledge of our religion, for that is the beginning of our salvation.

But our religion will be unprofitable if it does not change our heart, pervade our manners, and transform us into new creatures.

The philosphers rightly condemn and banish with disgrace from their company those who profess to know the art of life, but who are in reality vain babblers.

With much better reason Christians ought to detest those who have the gospel on their lips but not in their hearts. ...

We should not insist on absolute perfection of the gospel in our fellow Christians, however much we may strive for it ourselves.

It would be unfair to demand evangelical perfection before we acknowledge anyone as a Christian.

There would be no church if we set a standard of absolute perfection, for the best of us are still far from the ideal, and we would have to reject many who have made only small progress.

Source: Golden Booklet of the True Christian Life, John Calvin, pp. 20-22

One wonders what Calvin would think of the mercenaries who do battle in his name every day.

Stated simply, our pride needs to be checked at the door. God does the work of salvation and we are simply beggars showing other beggars where we have found food.

Greg

Greg,

That is a marvelous quote from John Calvin!

Who can continue to vilify Calvin after reading that quote?

And many of Calvin’s followers would do well to heed this advice.

Stan

Hello Stan — It looks like it’ll be a week before you see this but I’ll post anyway

“Hey John,
I am not sure of the forums you are referring to, but feel free to link them. What is the MJ forum?”

Messianic Judaism-http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/forumdisplay.php?f=89

A few formers have joined and appear to be quite taken by the use of Hebrew names for G-D,YHWH kabbala, Yeshua…as well as the SABBATH

I briefly considered attending Calvary Chapel but upon a bit of research concluded I did not want another top down hierarchal system dictating to me. I did not know they were ‘anti-Calvin’.

“This is the church that is most frequently attended by former SDAs who are evangelical and leave SDA, and it is certainly better than SDA, but in many ways is very similar in the tactics used to control information and to become intolerant of those who differ.”

It appears that some formers desire a church that imposes rigid control — it probably is comfortingly similar to Adventism

“On the other hand Jonvil, you are familiar with the gracious spirit of the folks on the White Horse Inn at http://www.whitehorseinn.org and the care that they give to these glorious truths of the Reformed faith.”

Thanks for reminding me of whitehorseinn, a program that I also highly recommend. I do listen and should have included them with 4TG as a first-rate site

You use the word ‘gracious’, an excellent term. Even though my initial foray into reformed theology was a shock to my Arminian bent it was that graciousness that brought me back to continue investigating.

John Douglas

Hello Stan — It looks like it’ll be a week before you see this but I’ll post anyway

“Hey John,
I am not sure of the forums you are referring to, but feel free to link them. What is the MJ forum?”

Messianic Judaism-http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/forumdisplay.php?f=89

A few formers have joined and appear to be quite taken by the use of Hebrew names for G-D,
YHWH kabbala, Yeshua…as well as the SABBATH

I briefly considered attending Calvary Chapel but upon a bit of research concluded I did not want another top down hierarchal system dictating to me. I did not know they were ‘anti-Calvin’.

“This is the church that is most frequently attended by former SDAs who are evangelical and leave SDA, and it is certainly better than SDA, but in many ways is very similar in the tactics used to control information and to become intolerant of those who differ.”

It appears that some formers desire a church that imposes rigid control — it probably is comfortingly similar to Adventism

“On the other hand Jonvil, you are familiar with the gracious spirit of the folks on the White Horse Inn at http://www.whitehorseinn.org and the care that they give to these glorious truths of the Reformed faith.”

Thanks for reminding me of whitehorseinn, a program that I also highly recommend. I do listen and should have included them with 4TG as a first-rate site

You use the word ‘gracious’, an excellent term. Even though my initial foray into reformed theology was a shock to my Arminian bent it was that graciousness that brought me back to continue investigating.

John Douglas

Hi Greg

You wrote ‘At some point, we must be able to look ourselves in the mirror and admit, “I’m just like that other guy, and until recently, I was in his shoes”. Only then can we begin to appreciate the tremendous privilege we have as Christian evangelists and the absolute humility that comes with the knowledge of God and His Word.’

That pretty well sums up what I was ‘feeling’. There is an arrogance of ‘superior knowledge’ and ‘discernment’ that is being displayed. Somewhere the reality that ‘but for the grace of God go I’ either has never dawned on them or lost in the desire to ‘win’. I believe this lack of ‘graciousness’ (Stan’s post) will always repel the recipient as well as the unseen ‘lurkers’, to everyone’s detriment. It is the power of God’s word — the GOOD NEWS - and the Holy Spirit that will change hearts, not Spiritless heated rhetoric.

Gal 5 (22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, (23) gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.  (24) Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.  (25) If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

Thank you for that great quote from Calvin, I’m attempting to find a way to use it in the Adventist SS that I got roped into teaching. It’s quite interesting to find ways to introduce Total Depravity, Limited Atonement (I use the term Completed Atonement to counteract the Adventist Investigative Judgment) The Efficacious Call of the Spirit and the Perseverance of the Saints in ways that will be somewhat palatable to the Adventist mindset. I DO NOT bring up election. Just the use of the term induces a feeding frenzy.

John Douglas

[quote author="Greg"] Looking back through the lens of time, I can see that part of what fueled my continued participation there was the pride I had in what I believed to be a superior theological position. When someone is bitterly opposing what you know to be true and can prove biblically, it’s tempting to demonize him and puff yourself up in the process.

This is exactly what I believe has happened in so many corners of the Internet. Instead of carefully handling the double-edged sword that is the Word of God, too often we see people with minimal theological depth and training running around with a bloody weapon, looking for the next “kill”.

At some point, we must be able to look ourselves in the mirror and admit, “I’m just like that other guy, and until recently, I was in his shoes”. Only then can we begin to appreciate the tremendous privilege we have as Christian evangelists and the absolute humility that comes with the knowledge of God and His Word.

This is totally it. As I look back on this year, I’ve done a lot of commenting and dialoging at various sites. While I’ve managed to learn a little, I’ve too often been more interested in undermining or countering someone else’s point, trying to establish my own superior evidence and reasoning and trying to reassure myself of my own goodness and rightness. I’ve been too eager to speak and too resistant to listen. I’m not usually big on New Year’s resolutions, but I know the inner critic in me needs to be silenced, or at least questioned, more often. While my promises are like “ropes of sand” I do desire this year to seek to understand rather than to be understood and to have my opinions validated.

And where I have grieved or offended any of you by my tone, lack of understanding, or anything else in the past year, I humbly apologize.

Jonvil, let us know how your in cognito defense of the doctrines of grace works out in the Sabbath School class. The “E” word does scare people quite a bit initially, however it is ultimately quite comforting. I think there’s a little more of the Calvin quote that might be helpful, so I’ll post it later tonight.

Hey Glenn, I appreciate very much what you wrote above. You and I share the same weaknesses, and I hope we can grow in grace together. No matter what has been said in the last year, I think we’ve somehow managed to keep each other honest in our endeavor to understand and apply God’s Word.

Greg

Here’s a little bit more from Calvin:

[quote author="John Calvin"]
Perfection must be the final mark at which we aim, and the goal for which we strive.

It is not lawful for you to make a compromise with God, to try to fulfill part of your duties and to omit others at your own pleasure.

The Lord first of all wants sincerity in his service, simplicity of heart without guile and falsehood.

A double mind is in conflict with the spiritual life, for this implies an unfeigned devotion to God in the search for holiness and righteousness.

No one in this earthly prison of the body has sufficient strength of his own to press forward with a due degree of watchfulness, and the great majority [of Christians] are kept down with such great weakness that they stagger and halt and even creep on the ground, and so make very slight advances.

But let everyone proceed according to his given ability and continue the journey he has begun.

There is no man so unhappy that he will not make some progress, however small.

Let us not cease to do the utmost, that we may incessantly go forward in the way of the Lord; and let us not despair because of the smallness of our accomplishment.

Though we fall short, our labor is not lost if this day surpasses the preceding one.

The one condition for spiritual progress is that we remain sincere and humble.

Let us keep our end in view, let us press forward to our goal. Let us not indulge in pride, nor give in to our sinful passions.

Let us steadily exert ourselves to reach a higher degree of holiness till we shall finally arrive at a perfection of goodness which we seek and pursue as long as we live, but which we shall attain then only, when, freed from all earthly infirmity, we shall be admitted by God into his full communion.

Source: Golden Booklet of the True Christian Life, John Calvin, pp. 22-23

If that doesn’t put a nail in the coffin of Hyper-Calvinism, I don’t know what will.

Greg

by Greg
This is exactly what I believe has happened in so many corners of the Internet. Instead of carefully handling the double-edged sword that is the Word of God, too often we see people with minimal theological depth and training running around with a bloody weapon, looking for the next “kill”.

No kidding. I’ve been posting on christianforums.net for the last 4 years and I’ve encountered this over and over again. Parrots of other misled folks with zero knowledge coming in like a warrior throwing opinions around like there’s no tomorrow. Then they triumphantly crow their ‘victory’ which was achieved through gross eisegesis and blatant assumptions all the while telling you how badly you ‘twist the scriptures’, are an ‘imp of Satan’ and a ‘blasphemer’.

Even when we are at best in our lives, the most pure motivations we have are still tainted by sin, since we live in the flesh, and are subjects of the corruptions of our flesh. We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. Isaiah 64:6 We are all on the same plane, and our sins are covered by Jesus’ blood. We all need to be reminded that what we are, we are by God’s grace, and we have nothing to boast, since anything precious we have, even the message of the gospel is something which was given to us. So we have nothing to boast.

Because the boasting is excluded, when the gospel is presented with more clarity than today had become the standard presentation of it, it will inevitably bring opposition, antagonism, and strife. Human pride likes to boast, and the gospel removes any ground for boasting. We are all cleansed by Jesus’ blood and as far as we will keep this in mind, we will constantly move toward a proper attitude. Even when we tell others that they blaspheme God by their words, if the situation requires, we will do this having in mind that we are not free from this sin to the degree of thinking that we don’t need Jesus’ blood to cover us.

May our prayer to God be,
Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors Mat. 5:12

Brothers, forgive us as our Lord Christ forgave you, and may the new year bring us together for the gospel.

God bless you,
Gabriel

Greg,

I was reviewing this thread and enjoying it a great deal. Thanks for the Calvin quotes. One of them I don’t follow, and I was wondering if you could correct or elucidate on please?

Let nominal Christians cease from insulting God by boasting themselves to be what they are not, and let them show themselves disciples not unworthy of Christ, their Master.

Is there a double negative in this quote?  Or am I missing the point? Are you typing these by hand and perhaps this quote contains a typo?  Thanks again for the quote and your kindness since I joined the 4TG forum!

In Christ....

Hi Dan,

I will check into the quote when I get home. Yes, it was typed in by hand and so it’s possible something was lost between my brain and my fingertips!

Also, thank you very much for your comments—I appreciate the perspective you bring to our forum!

Many blessings in Christ,

Greg

Greg,

I found the Calvin quote on another blog that was letter for letter the same as your quote.  You didn’t make any mistakes, the problem was surely in my interpretation of the phrasing. Here’s your Calvin quote:

Let nominal Christians cease from insulting God by boasting themselves to be what they are not, and let them show themselves disciples not unworthy of Christ, their Master.

Said another way (with my embellishment):

Christians “in name only”, should not insult Christ by presenting themselves as true Christians and experts of scripture (largely for the praise of others, not the Father).  Let them become true students of Christ, and as such, be worthy of their Teacher.

Many thanks to all my brothers and sisters in Christ here at the 4TG for the great patience that they have extended to me as I seek my “Master”.