The Former Adventist Fellowship Weekend, scheduled for FEB. 15-17 announced itself to be a new exciting meeting planned to be a time for fellowship and for further education of formers who just left behind them the “safe environment” of the SDA church. Instead of having an infallible church with an infallible voice, they are now in a evangelical world which is, compared with the former environment as a jungle, where you should develop and exercise your discernment gift wisely.

The transition from a church when you are sure 100% that you are in the right place, in the only true church, on the right road to heaven, to a world in which some churches are better than others, and some just seem to be evangelical but in reality are preaching and teaching a message far away from the gospel, this transition has its traumas, its uncertainties, and great potential to prevent spiritual development for years.

The FAF Weekend has in my view the potential to fulfill what in the rest of the year FAF forum fails to provide, good, solid, Christian education, and help to the path on integrating in a good evangelical church. The weekend will provide Christian Education and the same Rick Langer who participated in the previous FAF Weekend (2007) will be present this time to touch the subject of the Emergent Church and “how to recognize the true gospel”.  I will be glad to listen to his presentations when they will be made available in order to see what formers who will attend the weekend will learn.

At the same time I wonder how much good can be done with such greater time constraints imposed on the meeting. It is very short, three days in which only one day is dedicated to education, Sunday is for worship and Friday just for a opening session with a sermon. As it happened last year, they will try to address several subjects of interest for formers, but without enough time for every subject, I doubt that the subjects will have depth and will be like an introduction to the subjects. If I would spend hundreds of dollars to travel from my country to USA, I would like to have more solid food on my table worth the money I gave for transportation. I hope that the person from Australia who had registered will evaluate the meeting rather in fellowship benefits than in Christian Education benefits.

Not that the Christian EDU program is bad. The subjects announced are interesting, and I’ll tell you what I would look for, perhaps some of my concerns will slip in the presentations.

1. John Shoup: How to study the Bible
Good subject, maybe he will include here a short explanation of what Sola Scriptura is. Former adventists are not used to think clearly about the subject, because they were in a church with two sources of authority, the Bible and Ellen White. Rejecting Ellen’s authority, in which another individual governs your interpretation of the Bible, now the danger is to go to SOLO Scriptura, when another individual interprets the Bible, the person himself, independently and often in conflict with the way the church, who can claim the same guidance of the Holy Spirit, interpreted the Bible.
I think that this should be a concern for formers who subscribe to the view which does not attribute any role to the Decalogue in the Christian life, in tension with the church’s regard for the Decalogue and its usefulness. Neglecting the wisdom of centuries of careful exegesis is not the
wisest thing to do. The Bible should be the final and infallible authority in the Church, of course.

2. John Rittenhouse: The nature of Christ: what is it, and why does it matter? 

I Human nature or divine nature? Both matters, I think that the reason for introducing this subject is good for impressing adventists with the necessity of staying away from anti-trinitarian churches like Oneness Pentecostals, or popular preachers as Bishop T.D. Jakes who deny the Trinity. I hope that John will not forget to give a warning and even give the names of those who deny the Trinity.

3. Paul Carden: What is a cult? What do the cults have in common?

Perhaps this subject was introduced with the intention of confirming the formers decision that they decided correctly when they left the SDA behind, by a scholarship evaluation of what is a cult. In the light of the time constraints this topic is taking precious time from something more pressing and relevant for formers: how to find a good church. Because, if I understand correctly, the presentation is targeted at the SDA church, it touches something which is already past, finished history for former adventist. Looking past when looking forward is more important, and time is short for a looking forward, unfortunately takes time which I would gladly give to Rick Langer who’s presentation is looking forward.

Nevertheless, the presentation had a good potential if it would touch the subject of cult leadership, how to identify sings of potential spiritual abuse, like the ideas of apostolic leadership. A good example of what happens when you are claiming apostolic authority in founding churches is Ted Haggard, who promoted this kind of authority (apostolic authority) and after he assumed it the temptation was too strong for him. Lack of accountability and the concentration of power in few hands, or more dangerously in one hand which claims a similar authority as apostles, is a warning sign.

4. Rick Langer: What is the emergent church, and how do you recognize the pure gospel?

I would like to give Rick more space, to include on his list other churches, and movements, as for example Joel Osteen prosperity gospel, or word of faith movement, eventually the Toronto Blessing and the charismatic chaos. Of course, Rick Langer is not John McArthur, so I would not expect him to touch the charismatic world. After all, the only active former adventist pastor present at the meeting is involved in a charismatic church, and also other formers attending the meeting are already involved in the charismatic world, so bringing the subject of abusing the gifts to the degree of doing what Ellen White did, imposing your personal revelations on the truths of Scripture, instead of letting the Bible govern the interpretation, has the potential to upset former adventists present at the meeting who need and expect encouragement instead of somebody questioning their spiritual discernment.

In the final instance, I’m curious how the subject of the meeting, “For the Glory of God”, is related to the content of the meeting, how the glory of God is emphasized in sermons, presentations, how all these different subjects are relating to the overarching theme.  Perhaps something different than “Soli Deo Gloria”, I suppose. It remains to be seen how this meeting will impact both former and current adventists.

Gabriel

I noticed also that Pastor Mark Martin will not participate at the weekend, for unknown reasons. Mark Martin is conducting a ministry for former adventists and his team furnished the audio files from the previous meetings. I guess that, due to his absence and consequently his team’s absence at this meeting, another people will do the recordings, if there would be recordings at all.  Everything is possible, last year the weekend had also video recordings, but the promise of having the video files available on the web had not been fulfilled. It is difficult to anticipate what will be the case this year, but I hope that they resolved the problem of recording the meetings.

I invite anyone who will participate in the meetings to share with us his or her experience. Since I can not afford the cost, I will not be able to offer a review as I would like to.  perhaps someone else, maybe Stan, will go and share with us impressions from the meetings.

Gabriel

GABRIEL PROKSCH - 13 January 2008 01:21 AM

I noticed also that Pastor Mark Martin will not participate at the weekend, for unknown reasons. Mark Martin is conducting a ministry for former adventists and his team furnished the audio files from the previous meetings. I guess that, due to his absence and consequently his team’s absence at this meeting, another people will do the recordings, if there would be recordings at all.  Everything is possible, last year the weekend had also video recordings, but the promise of having the video files available on the web had not been fulfilled. It is difficult to anticipate what will be the case this year, but I hope that they resolved the problem of recording the meetings.

I invite anyone who will participate in the meetings to share with us his or her experience. Since I can not afford the cost, I will not be able to offer a review as I would like to.  perhaps someone else, maybe Stan, will go and share with us impressions from the meetings.

Gabriel

Hi Gabriel,

Unfortunately because of my wife’s illness I would not be able to make the conference either. If one of her friends can stay with her, then I might be able to make the Friday night meeting.

Interesting that Mark Martin will not be there, as he thoroughly dominated and monopolized the first conference that I attended. I want to comment more on this later as I get time.

Stan

I will be going, again, this year to the FAF reunion.
The way I look at the various topics at the reunion is that each gives me a taste of the various subjects and creates in me the desire to study further on what ever the subject may be if I so desire.  I do not expect to be taught everything about a subject while at the reunion.  That would take longer than two days.  I realize that not everyone agrees with me, but that is okay.  To each his own. 
I also go to meet the people I have only met on the internet and to make personal friends.  I met Stan through Revival sermons and after that he came to FAF.  I met him at a Friday night meeting way before the reunion.  So my purpose is two fold, 1.  to learn as much as I can, 2.  to make friends.  If I want to study more thoroughly I can read a book on the subject or take a class through my church.
The way I see it is that the Tinkers give us a little of many things to whet our appetite so we go home to study what ever more thoroughly.
Just my take on the reunion. 
Diana

Hi Diana,

I agree that I also enjoyed the first reunion in 2006, and it was especially great meeting everyone. That first reunion was attended by a lot of FAF posters that I was privileged to meet. And Diana, it was especially great meeting you and your sister.

I did live blogging on that first FAF reunion on FAF, and my reaction was mostly favorable.

Most of the attendees loved Mark Martin, and he did have a lot of helpful insights. However, I was also troubled by what I saw. It was interesting to compare the humble spirit of Greg Taylor manifested clearly, but in contrast I thought Mark Martin was somewhat pompous in comparison. The attendees were very admiring of Martin, because he is a charming and charismatic speaker., and there was almost an over abundance of uncritical admiration towards Martin.

If anyone wants to question what I am saying, just get the tapes of the Saturday night meeting in 2006. That meeting went on and on for three hours. After the excellent testimonials by the FAF members, then the three pastors took the stage and went on a marathon of book promotions and church promotions.  Mark Martin was especially long winded telling the details about how his church was growing. He even talked about running out of towels in the baptistry because of so many baptisms. It went on much too long. It started sounding like a book sales convention. Greg Taylor could hardly get a word in edgewise..

However I enjoyed a lot of the sessions and the music was good.

The only other problem I had with the weekend was the massive distribution of the videos featuring the World Wide Church of God supposedly embracing the gospel. When it was pointed out to the principals, that the gospel of the WCG is a false gospel, and even the pastor of Trinity saw the problems with this, Mark Martin chose to distribute the tapes widely anyway after issuing a disclaimer admitting that the WCG still had significant problems. But why even give in a little to the cultic spirit, when former SDAS were in the process of getting out of another cultic organization?

But I will pray for the weekend and wish the good folks at FAF well. I hope the weekend goes well and that God is glorified in the process.

Stan

Stan, I will join you in prayer. I sincerely hope that people leaving Adventism are exposed to solid teaching with a firm basis in Scripture. The best antidote for a false gospel is the true one and the best way to expose bad theology is to promote what is good. I think Gabriel was expressing this in his post. Sometimes it seems that in former Adventist circles, there’s a dichotomy drawn too sharply between Adventism and the rest of the Christian world. In reality, there are other minefields in the evangelical world that transitioning and former Adventists also need to be aware of.

Just to clarify what you said above about the Worldwide Church of God, I believe you are referring to their teaching that a sinner will have the opportunity to be saved even after they die, correct? It is a bit odd that this group is given such prominence in former Adventist circles, but I think it has something to do with the WCG renouncing the Sabbath.

Diana, I hope you have a good time at the meeting and please say hello to our friends for us. Maybe one of these years they’ll feature a session on the “solas” of the Reformation or the Doctrines of Grace. 

Greg

Greg,

I was referring to this article which defines the false gospel of the World Wide Church of God:

http://www.wcg.org/lit/gospel/bestnews.htm

I also would like to see FAF have more of an emphasis on Reformation doctrine. The major divide in Christianity is the very basic doctrine of the Reformation, which Martin Luther defined as “The Bondage of the Will”. Martin Luther believed the major error of Rome was the belief that man in any way had something to do with his own salvation. Luther was a strong advocate for monergistic regeneration, but the majority of the Christian world believes in synergistic salvation. A conference emphasizing the very basic doctrines of the Reformation would not be very popular in either former SDA circles, or even most evangelical circles.

Stan

For anyone wondering what I was referring to in my last post regarding monergistic vs. synergistic regeneration, then this article by RC Sproul is very helpful. He spells out the difference between the true protestant doctrine of salvation by grace alone vs. the Roman doctrine of PREVENIENT GRACE, which most evangelicals and former Adventists hold to:

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/sproul01.html

Stan

Here is a short quote from Sproul’s article:

“A monergistic work is a work produced singly, by one person. The prefix mono means one. The word erg refers to a unit of work. Words like energy are built upon this root. A synergistic work is one that involves cooperation between two or more persons or things. The prefix syn -

means “together with.” I labor this distinction for a reason. The DEBATE between ROME AND LUTHER hung on this single point. At issue was this: Is regeneration a monergistic work of God or a synergistic work that requires cooperation between man and God? When my professor wrote “Regeneration precedes faith” on the blackboard, he was clearly siding with the monergistic answer. After a person is regenerated, that person cooperates by exercising faith and trust. But the first step is the work of God and of God alone.

The reason we do not cooperate with regenerating grace before it acts upon us and in us is because we can- not. We cannot because we are spiritually dead. We can no more assist the Holy Spirit in the quickening of our souls to spiritual life than Lazarus could help Jesus raise him for the dead”
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But why is it not recognized or acknowledged by so many that the above WAS the central issue of the Reformation?  I would love to see an article in Proclamation! addressing this issue. And as a suggestion, why not include a session on this very important topic at the FAF reunion?

Stan

Hi Stan,

First and foremost FAF presents itself as a therapeutic instrument for the comfort of former and transitioning adventists. To offer comfort, to ease the pain, to heal from shame, these things are the focus of FAF, as the meeting itself has one breakout about healing from shame.

Healing from shame, easing the pain, comfort, all these blessings are given to us in Christ. In Him we have been washed by His blood, cleansed, we have peace with God because we have been justified by faith (Rom. 5:1). God gives us a new name, a new identity, which cannot be taken from us because He makes sure that nobody can snatch us out of Christ’s hand. Here is the comfort, here is our haven of rest, perfect rest. And stopping short of affirming God’s absolute sovereignty is simply unacceptable, because if salvation is left in our hands, at least in part, all the comfort is relative, unsure, with no firm root which cannot be moved, changed, destroyed. We are moving, we are changing, we change one mood for another, one place for another, and consequently there is no guarantee of future blessings for us beside God’s promises and his ability to keep his promises. If his ability depends in the slightest way on our internal and often chaotic evolution, God is severely limited in keeping his promises, since without our approval he cannot fulfill them. In a sudden rash move, or by a step by step departure from God, all our new identity can become history, and we will be condemned as we have never ever been justified, acquitted.

Where is the haven? The haven is the end of the journey, and the end of the journey for believers is Christ, the haven of rest. FAF’s overarching message is that “Christ is our sabbath rest” and this has a huge impact on adventists who sees sabbath as an essential step toward achieving rest in God, by resting one day in seven. But the truth that Jesus is our sabbath rest is liberating and offer people the haven, and many former adventists can testify about this fact. And they find comfort, so the message reaches its therapeutic goal.

And if the road is followed further in a consistent way, God’s sovereignty is the final end of the journey toward resting in who God is and what He has done. I think that former adventists had in general stopped short of making the entire journey, being satisfied with the discovery of Jesus as our sabbath rest. What is still not fully acknowledged is that this rest is rooted in God’s absolute sovereignty, maybe in the future.

Gabriel

Many months ago, when Ted Haggard was still head of the NAE (National Association of Evangelicals), I emailed to him documentation of the new false teaching of the Worldwide Church of God.  I strongly suggested that the WCG be removed from their membership list and/or communicating with them to correct their heretical stance.  However, I never received the courtesy of a reply from him.  Unfortunately, at that time, I now realize that Ted Haggard had serious personal problems to address.  I need to send an email to the new president of NAE.

Dennis Fischer

I went the first year and above everything else enjoyed the fellowship. This year looks like an even better set of workshops, but even if I could make it back again that is not the reason I would travel to the weekend.

Personally I am finding myself less and less contected to things “Former”. I certainly have nothing against FAF, it was a great place for me to find support as we were leaving. But the topics there started having less and less relevance for me. I tried to stay active for awhile to be supportive of the next people leaving, but after a some months of that I knew my heart just wasn’t in it. When we were first leaving, my wife and I would “fight” over who was able to read Proclamation first when it arrived. And we each read it cover to cover. Now I skim the list of articles to see if anything might catch my interest, and then I might skim one article to see if it is worth reading further. At some point this will probably involve giving up CARM as well.

It isn’t that I think SDAism is any less erroneous or even dangerous than I did before. I think it is just that things SDA are less and less a part of my everyday life and my attention has moved to areas more relevant to what I am experiencing now.

Just wanted to stop in and say “Hi” to everyone. Wishing each of you the best.

Hi Rick, it’s good to hear from you again. Your comments about progressing beyond Adventism describe my experience as well. I think our friends at FAF provide an important first step for many people who have struggled with their decision to leave Adventism, yet I believe the subsequent steps are often not clear. Ironically, the very doctrinal issues that keep people in the Adventist church (Sabbath, EGW) often become the focal point of former Adventist theology and evangelism. I can recall a recent Proclamation magazine that had a picture of the cross with the word “Sabbath” blocking it out, as if everyone who considers themselves sabbatarian are necessarily denying the sufficiency of the cross. Surely there are many people who have made an idol out of the Sabbath, but are all sabbatarians nullifying the grace of God in responding to His grace by what they consider obedience to the fourth commandment? I understand the point of the picture, but I think it adds fuel to a fire that is already burning out of control.

All of this said, I agree that Adventism is erroneous and dangerous. Just last night I spoke with a close family member who has written off all of Christianity because of his experience in Adventism. It breaks my heart to see this, and I certainly blame the unbalanced system of Adventism for presenting such a distorted picture of the Christian faith.

Rick, I also wish you and Sheryl the best, and many blessings in Christ.

Greg

Hi Rick,

I wonder if my attitude toward the ministry of FAF had suffered modifications because I changed, or because they changed, perhaps it is a combination of both. Nevertheless, I wondered if only fellowship with formers will be a sufficient motivation for somebody who just left adventism to pay a lot of money, even for a flight across the ocean in order to attend the weekend. As you said, and Diana, and Stan, you enjoyed the fellowship, which is good, but it is sufficient?

Many formers have questions regarding where to go and worship, what to look for in a church, and how to integrate in the new environment, subjects which had been dealt on FAF forum and also in the FAF weekend. Since their concerns are indeed important, and even this FAF weekend will touch these subjects, my concerns are related to the question: Will the goal of providing guidance can be attained in such a short time, and with the introduction of not so important subjects like “what is a cult”? Having such a short time, I think that the information will be diluted and not satisfactory for those who are concerned with the post-adventism life.

Maybe the fellowship which is the strongest point will compensate for the other weak points.

I would like to see FAF educate formers to act in a non-judgmental way toward the former church, and influence formers toward a Christian attitude. I saw that in the last time on CARM you encouraged by example formers to adopt such an attitude, may our friends on FAF follow your example. .

Gabriel

Hi Rick,

Good to hear from you again. I hope you will be traveling to SoCal again so we can meet up again like we did before. I miss the dialogue that you and Sheryl provided on FAF, and it was great meeting both of you at the FAF weekend.

Unfortunately I haven’t had time to check out CARM lately, but I have always admired the way you stand up to all the “stuff” (maybe a more descriptive term would be more accurate), and I don’t blame you if you are getting a little burned out on it. But don’t be a stranger on this site.

I agree with the sentiments expressed by Rick, Gabriel, and Greg regarding FAF, Proclamation, and moving beyond SDA.

It is troubling that there are some folks who leave Adventism, never REALLY leave it. There are some folks whose favorite sport and passion is writing vitriolic statements about Ellen White and SDA for many years, and even the rest of their lives. My dad, who was the most devoted person on the planet to SDA when he raised us, has seen the deception and realized that he was deceived for most of his life. Unfortunately, 14 years later, he is still very bitter towards SDA, and spends most of his waking hours doing research on Ellen’s false visions. But he now writes letters to as many people he knows trying to talk them out of being SDA, and makes life very difficult for my mother who is still SDA but a wonderful Christian woman.

Having moved beyond Adventism by God’s grace, I now have come to believe that the majority of the professing evangelical church has theological problems that are similar to SDAs basic errors which are rooted in the doctrines of Wesley and Charles Finney.

I still have a burden to share the gospel and the doctrines of grace with my SDA friends and family. I believe Adventism preaches a distorted gospel that is far removed from true Biblical Christianity.

I really miss the fellowship I had with the Friday night Bible study with the FAF group in Redlands. I consider these folks my friends and brothers and sisters in Christ. The bonds of fellowship with that group will always remain. I believe that FAF has helped many folks transition out of Adventism. I pray that those who transition out find a church that is as faithful as possible to the Reformation gospel preached by Jesus and the apostles, and rediscoverd by Luther and Calvin.

Stan

Stan Ermshar - 22 January 2008 02:09 PM

It is troubling that there are some folks who leave Adventism, never REALLY leave it. There are some folks whose favorite sport and passion is writing vitriolic statements about Ellen White and SDA for many years, and even the rest of their lives. My dad, who was the most devoted person on the planet to SDA when he raised us, has seen the deception and realized that he was deceived for most of his life. Unfortunately, 14 years later, he is still very bitter towards SDA, and spends most of his waking hours doing research on Ellen’s false visions. But he now writes letters to as many people he knows trying to talk them out of being SDA, and makes life very difficult for my mother who is still SDA but a wonderful Christian woman. Stan

To me, it seems that those who seem to hold a quasi-infallibility view of their church become the most disappointed when faced with the facts. They haven’t learned to adapt to the ‘mistakes’ and ‘errors’ or incorrect theology that their church holds...it always has had ‘the truth’ in their mind. Devout apologism based on that premise covers over any discerning, soul searching. When that platform comes down, the ‘all or nothing’ syndrome sets in. Bitterness and feelings of deception take over.

More on this later…