Greg and Gabriel referred to the following:

“Interesting find, Gabriel. Check out this page on his site: http://biblelight.net/Whats-new.htm “

Wow, what a trashy looking website! This looks about as sensational as the grocery store tabloid gossip magazines.

This person and John Batchelor are zealous only for the “gospel of SDA”, constantly emphasizing the “Spirit of Prophecy”, the state of the dead, and the Sabbath, but almost never talking about the true gospel of justification by faith alone by grace alone.

Who is Batchelor trying to kid? Anyone who knows the slightest bit about Reformation theology will recognize these people as frauds who wouldn’t be able to articulate even the basic doctrines that Luther stood for.

Stan

Thanks Stan,

I am getting some puzzled looks but no open opposition, which probably means that they simply do not realize that what I am presenting contradicts what the church teaches - which in turn means, they don’t know their own doctrines.

It was that thread plus a conversation with my wife (who favors free will) and who also brought up Adam & Eve, that triggered these questions. When examining the disastrous results of man’s choices throughout the Bible I find it impossible to conclude that man will suddenly get it right.

‘Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.’ Albert Einstein, (attributed)

To believe that God would leave it up to my free will to make a choice that has eternal consequences when my life’s track record has been a chain of poor choices, is to believe that I’ll blow it…again.

Election, however, is a radical departure from man ‘doing the same thing over and over again’; now the sovereign God is the one ‘doing’, He is in total control of my eternal destiny, and God never makes mistakes.

John Douglas

http://www.heartcrymissionary.com/component/option,com_weblinks/task,view/catid,38/id,21/
A sermon on holiness from a southern baptist youth conference. Obviously the stream of christian holiness is not only found in Wesleys tradition.

Stan Ermshar - 27 January 2008 03:35 PM

Greg and Gabriel referred to the following:

“Interesting find, Gabriel. Check out this page on his site: http://biblelight.net/Whats-new.htm “

Wow, what a trashy looking website! This looks about as sensational as the grocery store tabloid gossip magazines.

This person and John Batchelor are zealous only for the “gospel of SDA”, constantly emphasizing the “Spirit of Prophecy”, the state of the dead, and the Sabbath, but almost never talking about the true gospel of justification by faith alone by grace alone.

Who is Batchelor trying to kid? Anyone who knows the slightest bit about Reformation theology will recognize these people as frauds who wouldn’t be able to articulate even the basic doctrines that Luther stood for.

Stan

I think you mean Doug Batchelor?

JONVIL - 27 January 2008 08:18 PM

To believe that God would leave it up to my free will to make a choice that has eternal consequences when my life’s track record has been a chain of poor choices, is to believe that I’ll blow it…again.
John Douglas

I fail to see how this is any more foolish than having God decide to torment me forever instead of giving me the choice to choose Him or reject Him.

If God is all sovereign, then you must go the whole way with it and the conclusion you must come to is this:

(and I’m sorry for all those who have an issue with me bringing up eternal torment again, but I believe that the heart of this doctrine and it’s logical conclusion speaks against the idea of election. Only Stan is exempt from the flaws of this in the light of eternal torment. The rest of you still can’t answer the irrationality of eternal torment in light of Calvinism).

“God created hell for no other purpose but to punish sinners who have no choice whatsoever to choose not to go to hell. This was done by God knowing that man would sin and have no alternative but to allow any hope of their salvation to be put the hands of an arbitrary God. In other words, God deliberately created the majority of mankind to be tortured for billions of years for no purpose and no hope.”

If this view makes God all the more loving, than more power to you. Just be thankful you were apparently ‘elected’ because if you were on the other side of the coin, your future would look pretty bleak, and worse, God gave you the intelligence to realize that at some point of your life. Not exactly comforting to know when you are on your death-bed (Or would you not even think about it BECAUSE you were not elected? Hmm..who knows with this doctrine.)

I feel much more hopeful and secure in knowing that despite man’s sin, God created a way out that every man can cling on to should they so choose. How God moves me to make this choice doesn’t concern me. God can do anything and can break through the most depraved life.

Thank God for freedom of choice!

guibox - 28 January 2008 01:42 PM

JONVIL - 27 January 2008 08:18 PM

To believe that God would leave it up to my free will to make a choice that has eternal consequences when my life’s track record has been a chain of poor choices, is to believe that I’ll blow it…again.
John Douglas

I fail to see how this is any more foolish than having God decide to torment me forever instead of giving me the choice to choose Him or reject Him.

If God is all sovereign, then you must go the whole way with it and the conclusion you must come to is this:

(and I’m sorry for all those who have an issue with me bringing up eternal torment again, but I believe that the heart of this doctrine and it’s logical conclusion speaks against the idea of election. Only Stan is exempt from the flaws of this in the light of eternal torment. The rest of you still can’t answer the irrationality of eternal torment in light of Calvinism).

“God created hell for no other purpose but to punish sinners who have no choice whatsoever to choose not to go to hell. This was done by God knowing that man would sin and have no alternative but to allow any hope of their salvation to be put the hands of an arbitrary God. In other words, God deliberately created the majority of mankind to be tortured for billions of years for no purpose and no hope.”

If this view makes God all the more loving, than more power to you. Just be thankful you were apparently ‘elected’ because if you were on the other side of the coin, your future would look pretty bleak, and worse, God gave you the intelligence to realize that at some point of your life. Not exactly comforting to know when you are on your death-bed (Or would you not even think about it BECAUSE you were not elected? Hmm..who knows with this doctrine.)

I feel much more hopeful and secure in knowing that despite man’s sin, God created a way out that every man can cling on to should they so choose. How God moves me to make this choice doesn’t concern me. God can do anything and can break through the most depraved life.
Thank God for freedom of choice!

‘God can do anything and can break through the most depraved life’

Quite true, therefore all will be saved!

Eternal torment certainly is an emotion charged ‘hot button’ topic as is the state of the dead, for reasons that are self evident, I’m far more interested in salvation and have not spent any time on studying what happens to the ‘unsaved’. In that I’m a student of God’s Word and not the man Calvin, I’m not familiar with his views on this subject.

I’m more than content knowing that the omniscient God is in total control of my destiny

John Douglas

guibox - 28 January 2008 01:42 PM

I feel much more hopeful and secure in knowing that despite man’s sin, God created a way out that every man can cling on to should they so choose. How God moves me to make this choice doesn’t concern me. God can do anything and can break through the most depraved life.

Guibox, are you prepared to say that God is simply unable to save some sinners because they are too depraved? Is his grace trumped by hardened evil? You must explain the multitude of God’s “failures” when you make these statements, my friend.

Furthermore, what makes you think you don’t deserve hell? If God could expel Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden for simply taking a bite of fruit, what makes you think you deserve to spend eternity with Him? Why would He be unfair for punishing your sin with eternal destruction and eternal separation from Him? Please show me one person who deserves salvation, and why God is at fault for the consequences of Adam’s sin. We all deserve hell, and I think you know this. If any of us is saved, it is a reason to praise God, not to accuse Him of being an unfair tyrant.

Again, I ask you, what makes you think you don’t deserve eternal separation from God for your sin?

You make a lot of accusations about Calvinism but they ignore Scripture. God has the destiny of all of us in His hands, whether we “choose” to believe it or not. “So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills” (Romans 9:18). Guibox, your view of God has no way to explain these words, so you simply ignore them and move on.

Guibox, I’m ready for you to show me the error of my ways, but I will not be moved by your arguments about what you think God should be like—I’m waiting to hear your arguments from Scripture.

Greg

Luke 7
24When the messengers of John had left, He began to speak to the crowds about John, “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind?
25"But what did you go out to see? A man dressed in soft clothing? Those who are splendidly clothed and live in luxury are found in royal palaces!
26"But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I say to you, and one who is more than a prophet.
27"This is the one about whom it is written,
‘BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU,
WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY BEFORE YOU.’
28"I say to you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”
29When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John.
30But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.
31"To what then shall I compare the men of this generation, and what are they like?
32"They are like children who sit in the market place and call to one another, and they say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not weep.’
33"For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon!’
34"The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’
35"Yet wisdom is vindicated by all her children.”

Is this not interesting? God had a purpose, to prepear the people for Jesus through John, and some acknowledged this while others rejected it. Facinating.

västergötland,

It is indeed fascinating, and this returns us to something Gabriel posted earlier in the thread. After feeding the five thousand and crossing the Sea of Galilee to Capernaum, Jesus’ followers asked for more signs of his divinity. Keep in mind, he had just fed five thousand people with five loaves and two fishes! Instead of performing another miracle to confirm the faith of the people, Jesus answered this way:

“I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:35-40 ESV)

This passage is crystal clear. The unbelief of the people was not a result of their poor choices, it was the result of their inability to see Jesus as the Messiah, because the Father had not given them sight.

Greg

The other passage is equally chrystal clear in saying that some acknowledged and others rejected. These two clear passages must therefore be united somehow. Saying that one is superior of the other is making it a bit easy for oneself.

My friend, I did not make the claim that one text is superior to another. John 6 offers us insight about the mechanics of unbelief from the mouth of Jesus, and this is why I posted it.

Greg

26Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
27"Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
28Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
30So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?
31"Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.’”
32Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.
33"For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
34Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”
35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
36"But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.
37"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

So, in this passage people ask Jesus what they should do to work the works of God. Jesus answers them and says that the work of God is that they believe in Him. My assumption, Jesus did not ask them to do this knowing that it is impossible for them to do.
The people, as you noted above, for some reason asked for further evidence despite just having finnished a race around a lake to catch up with him. My questions, did the people do this because they thaught merely believing was to simple, or because they wanted to trick Jesus into conforming better to their messianic expectations, or because the Father had not elected them so belief would have been impossible for them?
Jesus then tells about the lifegiving bread from God. The people want this bread and Jesus identifies it with Himself. This is repetition of their preceding exchange about the work of God in different words. There appears to be a difference though, in the first case Jesus tells them how to do the work of God while in the second case He says that the one the Father sends will come and that the one who comes will be cared for. Why this difference?

To make a long story short, it is well known that reformers talked about two aspects of God’s will, God’s revealed will, and God’s secret will. God’s revealed will is God’s moral will, God’s commands, God asking people to repent and believe in the gospel, to do what is right, it is about righteousness and sin. This reveled will can be frustrated as it becomes evident from the texts presented, a lot of people refuse to repent, to believe in the gospel, to do what is right. Even Christians frustrate God’s will when they sin, because they go against God’s will for them to abstain from sinning.

This is not the situation with God’s secret will, which is about the final destiny of people, a will which can’t be frustrated.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?  What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? Rom. 9:19-24

The question “Who can resist his will?” does not lead to the answer, “God’s will can be resisted in this way, or that way”, but it is followed by a reiteration of God’s right to do what he wants to do with people, potter’s right.  This will is hidden, and since we don’t know this will, we are not required to live in harmony with this will. Our responsibility is to live our life according to God’s revealed will, to repent and believe the gospel, to do what is right in God’s sight, and live lives worthy of our calling.

Gabriel

I don’t think Jesus gave two different messages, he gave the same consistent message throughout. Asked to identify the works of God, Jesus answered “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” (verse 29). The whole of Jewish history and the entirety of the Jewish Scriptures pointed to him, so they were amply prepared for his arrival and for belief in him (see John 5:39-40). Yet the Jews did not believe. Apparently they were expecting someone other than a humble carpenter’s son from Nazareth. When he magnified the claims about himself, saying, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst” (verse 35), the Jews could not believe their ears. If they missed the Scriptures that pointed to him before, they were now forced to deal directly with his claims of divinity. But instead of believing, they rejected him, because they knew his mother and father and they knew he did not fit their idea of what the Messiah should like like (verse 42).

Instead of patiently explaining himself for the umpteenth time so that the Jews would finally understand that he was indeed the Messiah, Jesus simply said, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day” (verses 43-44). He then quotes from the Torah to back up his statement (verse 45). This must have sounded utterly ridiculous to the Jews, and their response demonstrates this (verses 52-59).

Even the disciples labeled Jesus words as being difficult to understand, saying “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” (verse 60). Again, instead of being more gentle with his words and trying a different approach to get them to finally make the “decision” to believe, Jesus says something completely unexpected: “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (verses 62-64).

Please notice the response. Jesus’ evangelistic attempts, if measured by modern standards, was a failure. “After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him” (verse 66). To make a point, Jesus asks the twelve disciples if they too will leave him. But because he had revealed himself to them, they knew he was the Messiah and they had nowhere else to turn, because Jesus had “the words of life” (verses 68-69). As if to drive the point of the entire chapter home, Jesus responds by saying, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil” (verse 70).

Jesus shows us in this interaction that the belief and unbelief of man is at the sole discretion of the Father, mediated through Jesus’ earthly ministry and the continuing ministry of the Spirit.  Jesus preached a message to everyone as if they could hear his words, but he knew full well that most would not. Most of the people who heard Jesus’ words in Capernaum deserted him because he was not what they expected, and they had not been given the gift of belief by the Father.

Greg

GABRIEL PROKSCH - 29 January 2008 10:28 AM

To make a long story short, it is well known that reformers talked about two aspects of God’s will, God’s revealed will, and God’s secret will. God’s revealed will is God’s moral will, God’s commands, God asking people to repent and believe in the gospel, to do what is right, it is about righteousness and sin. This reveled will can be frustrated as it becomes evident from the texts presented, a lot of people refuse to repent, to believe in the gospel, to do what is right. Even Christians frustrate God’s will when they sin, because they go against God’s will for them to abstain from sinning.

This is not the situation with God’s secret will, which is about the final destiny of people, a will which can’t be frustrated.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?  What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? Rom. 9:19-24

The question “Who can resist his will?” does not lead to the answer, “God’s will can be resisted in this way, or that way”, but it is followed by a reiteration of God’s right to do what he wants to do with people, potter’s right.  This will is hidden, and since we don’t know this will, we are not required to live in harmony with this will. Our responsibility is to live our life according to God’s revealed will, to repent and believe the gospel, to do what is right in God’s sight, and live lives worthy of our calling.

Gabriel

Dearly hoping that we are acctually called in Gods secret will. This will being secret, none of us could ever be sure it is God’s secret will that “I” acctually be among the redemed. Then again, none of us able to do anything about it either way, if God wants me dead, dead I be…