Dearly hoping that we are acctually called in Gods secret will. This will being secret, none of us could ever be sure it is God’s secret will that “I” acctually be among the redemed. Then again, none of us able to do anything about it either way, if God wants me dead, dead I be…
There are not two wills of God, there are two aspects of God’s SINGLE will. If I live after God’s revealed will, if I repent of my sins, believe in the gospel and obey God the Bible assures me of my salvation, of my calling, and of the fact that God had chosen me before the foundation of the world. You don’t need to inquire after God’s secret will, as if being in harmony with his revealed will is not sufficient, and at the end of the day God will have a surprise for you.
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Rom. 8:29,30)
Here we see the harmony between predestination, and God had not told me “I predestined Gabriel for life”, but told me that his elect are predestined to be “conformed to the image of his Son”, sanctified. This is the link with God’s revealed will, and what I know is that my duty is to live a sanctified life. In this way I’m making my “calling and election sure” (2 Peter 1:10)
On the other hand, if I’ll depart from God’s revealed will, if I’ll live a life of sin, mocking Jesus’ blood, and die in an unrepentant state, the Bible tells me that I’m lost and was never elected, was never a true Christian. (1 John 2:19). So there is a harmony between the revealed will and the secret will.
What’s important is to believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior and that’s enough for being saved. Jesus fulfilled all God’s requirements in my place, lived a life of perfect love and righteousness, died for my sins and raised for my justification, and for me there is “now no condemnation” (Rom. 8:1). I know also that sanctification is God’s will for my life and is not optional, and if my life is not sanctified, if in the final instance I reject Christ, I’m lost; and it is my duty to live a sanctified life. However, I’m not living this sanctified life in order to be saved or to remain saved, but because I’m saved. Because I know that I’m no longer condemned and no sin in the future can separate me from God’s love, I’m living accordingly to this truth: I’m united with Christ in life, death, resurrection. A life of bondage to sin, under sin’s dominion is a contradiction of the unity in love between Christ and the believer, of the reality of being in Christ, and Christ in us. Justification alone saves, but those whom God justifies, he also sanctifies until the end (Phil. 1:6).
So, wether you are predestined to life or was never elect acctually depends on wether you follow Gods revealed will or not? If everyone who choses to do God’s will are “the elect” and everyone who choses not to do so are not, well, then maybe there is no such large difference between our views after all.
I can find no fault in your interpretation and the resulting opinion /w quotations. Thank you for your faithfulness to the Gospel of Jesus Christ,
If I may, I’d like to add my thoughts by interspersing them amongst your text. Hopefully, without error or distraction from the true message. Please correct what ever error you might see.
Greg - 29 January 2008 10:40 AM
I don’t think Jesus gave two different messages, he gave the same consistent message throughout. Asked to identify the works of God, Jesus answered “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” (verse 29).
I couldn’t agree with you more. Note that this is another entreaty from Christ to us to have “faith” by “believing in God the Father”. And that if we do “believe” it is a work of God, not of our own doing.
Greg’s text continues… The whole of Jewish history and the entirety of the Jewish Scriptures pointed to him, so they were amply prepared for his arrival and for belief in him (see John 5:39-40). Yet the Jews did not believe. Apparently they were expecting someone other than a humble carpenter’s son from Nazareth.
The expectations of the unbelieving Hebrews was not derived from the Jewish Scriptures. The Hebrews of that day were (like some Christians are today) guilty of allowing the worldview of their day to contaminate and bias their expectations. They wanted and expected immediate relief from a worldly perspective, seeing only disappointment in Christ’s words and forgetting or rejecting God’s plan as detailed in the Torah.
again Greg’s text continues… When he magnified the claims about himself, saying, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst” (verse 35), the Jews could not believe their ears. If they missed the Scriptures that pointed to him before, they were now forced to deal directly with his claims of divinity. But instead of believing, they rejected him, because they knew his mother and father and they knew he did not fit their idea of what the Messiah should like like (verse 42).
They allowed familiarity to also work against them in that they knew (from a worldly perspective) from where Jesus originated. Not thinking to check their own Scripture and verify his place of birth or any of the many prophecies that He had already fulfilled. To compound the insult and disbelief, the Jews thought of their scripture also as “the Bread of Life”
again Greg’s text continues… Instead of patiently explaining himself for the umpteenth time so that the Jews would finally understand that he was indeed the Messiah, Jesus simply said, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.
Jesus had no reason to try to convince anyone of His intentions or His divinity. By His own declaration He tells us Who it is that must act so that they will see, understand, and believe. Without God’s action, or should I say election, all that the disbelieving Hebrews would hear is babble. Not all of the Hebrews heard babble. There were certainly some “elect” among them! Though, as Greg mentions later, even the disciples said: “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?”
more of Greg’s text… Even the disciples labeled Jesus’ words as being difficult to understand, saying “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” (verse 60). Again, instead of being more gentle with his words and trying a different approach to get them to finally make the “decision” to believe, Jesus says something completely unexpected: “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (verses 62-64). .
“...make the ‘decision’ to believe....” Christ knew that it was not for them to decide! Also, Christ declares: “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. ...” The believer (flesh) can do nothing to obtain faith or to believe, It is only by God’s election/action via the Holy Spirit that true faith can come to the sinner…
more of Greg’s text… And I will raise him up on the last day” (verses 43-44). He then quotes from the Torah to back up his statement (verse 45). This must have sounded utterly ridiculous to the Jews, and their response demonstrates this (verses 52-59).
Yes, from their perspective it was absolutely ridiculous that the son of a carpenter would make such claims… Once again, why didn’t they recognize the verse from the Torah? Perhaps, as the non-elect of God they couldn’t hear it. Hopefully, the Lord worked his will on the hearts of many of these people who would later come to faith and be saved!
more of Greg’s text… Please notice the response. Jesus’ evangelistic attempts, if measured by modern standards, was a failure. “After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him” (verse 66).
Failure, no, the by the standards of that day and today we know that Christ can’t fail. I can just imagine today’s pollsters talking to the departing, and disbelieving disciples: “What did you believe today? Is He the promised Messiah as he has stated? Can you tell us His position on the Roman situation? Does He have any practical solutions to offer for the oppressed Hebrew people? Is He as hard to understand as we have been told?”
more of Greg’s text… To make a point, Jesus asks the twelve disciples if they too will leave him. But because he had revealed himself to them, they knew he was the Messiah and they had nowhere else to turn, because Jesus had “the words of life” (verses 68-69). As if to drive the point of the entire chapter home, Jesus responds by saying, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil” (verse 70).
“Did I not choose you, the Twelve?” Yes, they were most certainly the “elect” of Christ Jesus!
and the last of Greg’s text… Jesus shows us in this interaction that the belief and unbelief of man is at the sole discretion of the Father, mediated through Jesus’ earthly ministry and the continuing ministry of the Spirit. Jesus preached a message to everyone as if they could hear his words, but he knew full well that most would not. Most of the people who heard Jesus’ words in Capernaum deserted him because he was not what they expected, and they had not been given the gift of belief by the Father.
May what we discern from the Scriptures here be pure and pleasing to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.... Amen
So, wether you are predestined to life or was never elect acctually depends on wether you follow Gods revealed will or not? If everyone who choses to do God’s will are “the elect” and everyone who choses not to do so are not, well, then maybe there is no such large difference between our views after all.
Whether or not we are one of “the elect” or not of our doing. There is nothing we can “DO” to effect our election. God has chosen for reasons that are strictly for His pleasure and are way beyond our understanding. Our election, the quickening of our hearts by the Spirit, and the faith that results are all external to our being and personal desires. We bring nothing to the equation of salvation! As a chosen and faithful (faith filled) follower of Christ I try to minimize the burden I place upon Him who saved me. But He fully knew the burden of my lifetime of sin before I was born including my pitiful efforts to minimize the sin in my life. My effort or resistance to sin is a reflection of my love for Christ as my Savior and Benefactor. Because of my depravity I owe Him my eternity! Yet while I owe Him everything, I have nothing to give Him except my love and devotion.
But He fully knew the burden of my lifetime of sin before I was born including my pitiful efforts to minimize the sin in my life. My effort or resistance to sin is a reflection of my love for Christ as my Savior and Benefactor. Because of my depravity I owe Him my eternity! Yet while I owe Him everything, I have nothing to give Him except my love and devotion.
Dan, I could not agree more with you and I echo your sentiments and the statement of Jonvil earlier in this thread about being content to leave ourselves within the sovereign hands of God.
We veer off the path of biblical Christianity when we see our works as being a way to commend ourselves to God. Adventism and many other branches of the professing Christian community are not all that far from the church of Rome which makes salvation contingent upon good works. Many churches talk about being “saved by grace” but they bring works in through the back door as the key to unlock God’s grace. Behind this idea is a low view of both our sinfulness and God’s holiness. We want to believe that we are not so utterly sinful that we can’t do something to earn God’s favor. On the flip side, this pushes us toward a belief that God is not so utterly holy that He sees our best efforts as filthy rags.
To see grace as it really is, we must first see our depravity. Too often in this world, the teaching is not that sin is a fatal condition of man, but merely a “sickness” that can be remedied by taking a few simple steps.
… Many churches talk about being “saved by grace” but they bring works in through the back door as the key to unlock God’s grace.
I think that for some, works are a security blanket, just in case faith is not enough. The problem with this thinking (other than being wholly un-scriptural) is that it is an insult to the work done on the Cross. What more could any sinful and depraved being do than that which the pure and perfect Christ did for us on the Cross? Doing good works to gain salvation rather than doing them as a result of one’s appreciation of the free gift is apostasy.
... To see grace as it really is, we must first see our depravity.
Regarding our ability to fathom our depravity… When contrasted against an infinitely pure and Holy God, I don’t think we have any hint of how BAD we really are! Christ knows full well how lost we really are, and He has accepted and borne the punishment we so richly deserved.
31"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34"Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35’For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
37"Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38’And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39’When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
40"The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
7"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
8"For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
9"Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone?
10"Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he?
11"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!
12"In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
13"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
32"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
33"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
34"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35"For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
36and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
37"He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
38"And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
39"He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.
40"He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.
41"He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.
42"And whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water to drink, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.”
24Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.
25"For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
26"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?
27"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.
28"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
21Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
23"For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24"When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25"But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26"So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’
27"And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28"But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’
29"So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’
30"But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31"So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32"Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33’Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’
34"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35"My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”
1"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.
2"When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3"And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the market place;
4and to those he said, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ And so they went.
5"Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did the same thing.
6"And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing around; and he said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here idle all day long?’
7"They said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’
8"When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last group to the first.’
9"When those hired about the eleventh hour came, each one received a denarius.
10"When those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius.
11"When they received it, they grumbled at the landowner,
12saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.’
13"But he answered and said to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius?
14’Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.
15’Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?’
16"So the last shall be first, and the first last.”
First passage, Jesus declares those righteous whom he identifies by what they have done to their neighbours.
Second passage, it is the one who seeks who finds and the one who knocks who get the open door. The promise is that God will give good gifts to those who ask Him about them, and everyone enters one of two gates but only one of the gates lead to life.
Third passage, apparently confessing Jesus has some value at the throne of God.
Third and fourth passages, taking up ones cross and following Jesus seems to be an intristic part of what it means to be christian.
Fifth passage, failiure to forgive our brothers and neighbours is described as an way to fail our own forgiveness by God.
Sixth passage, Yes, our wages are at our Lords discretion.
First passage, Jesus declares those righteous whom he identifies by what they have done to their neighbours.
Second passage, it is the one who seeks who finds and the one who knocks who get the open door. The promise is that God will give good gifts to those who ask Him about them, and everyone enters one of two gates but only one of the gates lead to life.
Third passage, apparently confessing Jesus has some value at the throne of God.
Third and fourth passages, taking up ones cross and following Jesus seems to be an intristic part of what it means to be christian.
Fifth passage, failiure to forgive our brothers and neighbours is described as an way to fail our own forgiveness by God.
Sixth passage, Yes, our wages are at our Lords discretion.
I think it is important not to make systematic theology based on parables which were used to convey general truths.
In the book of John, where Jesus spoke more directly on theology and not as much in parables, we see the great doctrines of election dveloped in more detail when you read the systematic sections of John 3, 5, 6 and 10. There is no way to deny the great truths of the Reformed faith when reading Jesus’ clearest statements.
John 6:37,44--the logic and text is too clear to just explain it away by going to other sections of the Bible that are not as clear in context as these verses.
The first, fifth and the sixth passages are parables, but had you read them all, you would have noticed that this is not so in regards to the other ones.
The second passage, being part of the sermon on the mount, I would have expected would have recieved a better responce. I was of the, apparent illusion, that this sermon was one of the most clear teachings we have on record by Jesus.
The third and fourth passages does not show any of the identification marks of a parable. They are not a story any more than Jesus teaching in John 6 is one.
The fifth passage surely is a parable, but Jesus is not hiding the lesson He is trying to teach. Saying: 35"My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.” The general truth taught is that the one who will not forgive will not be forgiven is not different from Jesus teaching that to be saved a person must be born again. Both are clearly teaching what is expected of Jesus diciples.
I think at this point it might be helpful if someone would post a short review of all the positions being taken in this discussion (thread) and the various arguments being presented here. My impression was that the main points in discussion here are:
1) ...the Adventist position that salvation was to be earnestly worked for via the pursuit of the perfected life on earth.
2) ...the Reformed interpretation of scripture reveals that salvation is an unearned gift made to the elect whom God has chosen. The gift is uniquely and completely the product of the work done on the cross and a man can do nothing to merit salvation. True and genuine “good works” are a response of gratitude to the gift of love that Christ has freely given to us by His sacrifice.
I guess my position on these points are a bit obvious and I don’t mean to minimize the other sides argument. I look forward to hearing any other subject summaries that the other participants might wish to offer…
While I think it is a good idea to review the basic points of the thread, I think you have only succeeded with the point of view you are yourself backing. The first side in your list is not at all what I have been pursuing.
Yesterday I read the first chapter of Dietrich Bonhoeffers book “the cost of dicipleship”. Google books have it here: The Cost of Dicipleship
If you read the chapter “Costly Grace”, you will have another view on what I have been trying to show. And in case my attempts have been really bad, what I am attempting is not to disprove your points about the necessity of Gods initiative and involvement in salvation, but only that this is not the entire story. As Bonhoeffer writes it, grace without dicipleship is cheap.
Thanks Dan for summarizing the different points of view being represented here. I will add that I don’t think most Adventists view works as the vehicle for their salvation, but they effectively end up with an emphasis on works if the gospel is not the foundation of their efforts.
Said another way, God’s grace is the platform from which every good work flows.
Part of the confusion, perhaps, is over the use of biblical indicatives and imperatives. The indicative describes what God has already done, while the imperative describes our response.
Looking at just one example, the apostle Paul opens the letter to the Colossians with this indicative: “[The Father] has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.” (Colossians 1:13-14 ESV)
Later in the letter, Paul moves to the imperative: “Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.” (Colossians 3:5 ESV) “Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.” (Colossians 3:12-13 ESV) “Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them. Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord. Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged.” (Colossians 3:18-21 ESV)
If we start reading Colossians 3 without carefully digesting what Paul says in Colossians 1, we risk turning his message into a list of rules by which to live the Christian life. But if we first recognize that God has acted unilaterally without our help, to redeem and transfer us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, we will have a solid basis from which to be His disciples and accomplish the works He has prepared beforehand for us to do (Ephesians 2:10).
västergötland, your point is well-taken, but I don’t think your comments are at odds with what Dan said, or with what I wrote above. We are merely putting the emphasis on the fuel that drives our good works—the gospel of Jesus Christ and the new birth of the Spirit.
