The difference between your argument and the arguments I read thus far in the book Gabriel recomended is that the book authors have clearly made the effort to understand that which they critique. When I see that they made their homework, I take notice of what else they have to say. Maybe you should try that approach? You repeating silliness such as the last one that Gods ability to incarnate on earth would be limited despite my atempts to deny I would believe such a thing grows old.
In the very first sentence of John Piper’s introduction to the book you are comparing me with, he calls open theism “a departure from historic Christianity” and “a dishonor to Christ”. A few sentences later, he references a quote which identifies open theism as “heresy”.
västergötland , maybe I’ve been beating around the bush. I was hoping to help you see where open theism leads, but perhaps Piper’s approach is better. Yes, open theism is a departure from historic Christianity, Christ-dishonoring and it is certainly heresy.
Greg
FYI, I was not refering to a few sentences of the introduction. Those are claims and had they stood alone they would carry no weight whatsoever with anyone who didnt already believe them to be true. Read a whole chapter and see if that changes the perception somewhat?
Saying it is “a dishonor to Christ” is easy and cheap, showing that it is so is an entierly different issue.
Do you or do you not believe that Mary was the one—the only one—referred to in Isaiah 7:14?
Mary was a human whom God blessed mightily, but despite popular Roman Catholic oppinion non the less still a Godfearing human. Moses, Elijah, Paul and John are other humans whom God blessed mightily. Must they too have been predestined or God loses control of Himself and His plans for creation? Why do you insist on comparing Mary with Jesus? Would Jesus be less God if Mary was not predestined from the beginning of creation? Thats what is so absurd. Jesus is perfectly God and perfectly human. He could not be any less God nor could he be any more human. The only reason Jesus mother had to be a virgin was that God had previously said she would be. Otherwise we would be putting limits on incarnation itself if we insist it requires some mystical(mythical) characteristic of virginity itself.
As far as we know this would give the same length of a second everywhere in the universe, at least everywhere with a simmilar gravitation as we have on earth. Therefore time is not earthbound and God not being earthbound does not matter for this consideration.
Your conclusions are self-refuting, because God is not limited to earth’s gravitational forces. The time standard you referred to is derived empirically from the earth’s physical properties (e.g. a 24-hour day and a 365-day year), not some universal physical property.
My conclusions are cautious due to my limited knowledge of a science that itself has limited empirical knowledge of how theories made on earth is corroborated or not in other locations of the universe. If I understood things correctly, time in einsteinian relativity is bound to gravity.
We divide time in years, months and days after earths path around the sun for practical purposes, but to go from there to say that time only exists on earth is leaving generally accepted understanding of reality. I mentioned this definition of time because it is not bound by earths motions around the sun but by the predictable speed of the decay of radioactive cesuim. I have read some questions on wether the decay rate relates to gravity forces as well.
What is time then? If I have understood your view correctly, time exists only as earth moves around the sun. Do you believe that time would cease to exist if God would uncreate the solar system? I think the existance of time is entierly unrelated to earth or anything connected with it. God could uncreate our entire galaxy and time would non the less still exist in creation.
Newton wrote about time in his Principia Mathematica as found at wikipedia:
Absolute, true, and mathematical time, in and of itself and of its own nature, without reference to anything external, flows uniformly and by another name is called duration. Relative, apparent, and common time is any sensible and external measure (precise or imprecise) of duration by means of motion; such a measure – for example, an hour, a day, a month, a year – is commonly used instead of true time.
– Principia
Since then the definition has been changed to accomodate for the new findings of relativity and quantum theory.
The questions are, is there such a place as outside of time? If something was outside of time, would this something be able to change in any respect whatsoever without imediately either be brought back into time or create a pararell zone of time for itself? For without time there is no history nor a future but only a now. But any action which is not eternally unchanging and continuous requires first a future and then a history. Acts require time.
Is the Creator bound to or subject to His own creation? I don’t think so. We cannot hinder or encumber Him who is our Creator!
Romans 9:20 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?
Why would this same rule not apply to time as we understand and perceive it? Time, as His creation, cannot rule its Creator...!
Genesis 1:1 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
The book of Genesis tells us that before creation there was nothing! While I can find no explicit biblical reference to the creation of time; the creation of time is implied in the separation of day and night. I also recall that there is a biblical reference to God controlling time (as perceived by men on earth) but I don’t have the bible verse reference to offer at this time. Did not the sun stop its motion for a time to prove God’s sovereignty to a Biblical character? Please excuse my ignorance on this…
It is my contention that God, as its Creator, stands outside of the bounds of time. Hence, His foreknowledge is infinite! We believe that the words and predictions of the true prophets were inspired by God and as such were infallible.
With all of this scripturally laid before us, how can we doubt God’s infinite foreknowledge?
Before creation there was only God, but is time something or is time a secondary atribute of God? Something that inevitably follows Gods being and acting?
God stoped the movement of the sun and the moon relative to the earth to help Josua in a battle, but to go from there to having time stop is a huge step. If time froze, would not all activity also stop for the duration of the frozen time?
FYI, I was not refering to a few sentences of the introduction. Those are claims and had they stood alone they would carry no weight whatsoever with anyone who didnt already believe them to be true. Read a whole chapter and see if that changes the perception somewhat?
Saying it is “a dishonor to Christ” is easy and cheap, showing that it is so is an entierly different issue.
Here are some excellent thoughts on Christology, hamartiology, and soteriology:
“Salvation is not a project in which God helps humans save themselves, but a rescueoperation from start to finish...We sin because we are sinners, inheriting Adam’s guilt and corruption. Therefore, what we need in a Second Adam is something more than an example. We need a Savior. We need someone to rescue us by His own grace, since we cannot even respond to Him of our own free will, corrupted as it is by our sinful affections...To suggest that we are accepted by God on the basis of Christ’s righteousness and our own cooperation--be it free will, obedience, love, charity, prayer, a good heart, whatever--is to deny the gospel.” [Excerpts from Michael S. Horton, Editor of Modern Reformation magazine]
Truly, salvation is a gift to be received, not a goal to be achieved. The will of God will not lead you where the grace of God cannot keep you.
Here are some excellent thoughts on Christology, hamartiology, and soteriology:
“Salvation is not a project in which God helps humans save themselves, but a rescueoperation from start to finish...We sin because we are sinners, inheriting Adam’s guilt and corruption. Therefore, what we need in a Second Adam is something more than an example. We need a Savior. We need someone to rescue us by His own grace, since we cannot even respond to Him of our own free will, corrupted as it is by our sinful affections...To suggest that we are accepted by God on the basis of Christ’s righteousness and our own cooperation--be it free will, obedience, love, charity, prayer, a good heart, whatever--is to deny the gospel.” [Excerpts from Michael S. Horton, Editor of Modern Reformation magazine]
Truly, salvation is a gift to be received, not a goal to be achieved. The will of God will not lead you where the grace of God cannot keep you.
Dennis Fischer
Those really are excellent thoughts, Dennis. Thank you for posting them here. Michael Horton and his co-horts at the White Horse Inn radio program have really been a blessing to me and have done much to open my eyes to the truth of Reformed theology and sovereign grace.
The example given about a rescue operation reminds me of an analogy I heard earlier today. A man drowning in the ocean doesn’t need someone to give him swimming lessons he needs someone to pick him up out of the water and throw him into the boat.
Here are some excellent thoughts on Christology, hamartiology, and soteriology:
“Salvation is not a project in which God helps humans save themselves, but a rescueoperation from start to finish...We sin because we are sinners, inheriting Adam’s guilt and corruption. Therefore, what we need in a Second Adam is something more than an example. We need a Savior. We need someone to rescue us by His own grace, since we cannot even respond to Him of our own free will, corrupted as it is by our sinful affections...To suggest that we are accepted by God on the basis of Christ’s righteousness and our own cooperation--be it free will, obedience, love, charity, prayer, a good heart, whatever--is to deny the gospel.” [Excerpts from Michael S. Horton, Editor of Modern Reformation magazine]
Truly, salvation is a gift to be received, not a goal to be achieved. The will of God will not lead you where the grace of God cannot keep you.
Dennis Fischer
This boldened phrase is where the misscommunication enters. Both groups use it and one group take it to mean that God offers salvation to every individual of the human race ever to live and anyone who recives it lives. How you use the phrase, I have no idea. Obviously not in the same way I do.
No miscommunication here - I see salvation as a gift to be received, not as a wage that I earn.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
GIFT (G1431)
δωρεά
dōrea; from G1325; a gift: - freely (1), gift (12), needlessly (1), without a cause (1), without charge (1), without cost (2), without paying (1).
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
gift –noun
1. something given voluntarily without payment in return, as to show favor toward someone
American Heritage Dictionary
gift n.
1. Something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation.
2. The act, right, or power of giving.
There are differences between Arminianism and Calvinism with regards to how one is saved. Please examine the comparison below taken from Romans: An Interpretive Outline by David N. Steele and Curtis C. Thomas. These comparisons are based on the Arminian “remonstrances” addressed at the Synod of Dort in 1618-1619.
Arminian - Free Will or Human Ability
Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man’s freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man’s freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God’s Spirit and be regenerated or resist God’s grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit’s assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man’s act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner’s gift to God; it is man’s contribution to salvation.
Calvinist - Total Inability or Total Depravity
Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not–indeed he cannot–choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit’s assistance to bring a sinner to Christ–it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God’s gift of salvation–it is God’s gift to the sinner, not the sinner’s gift to God.
Arminian - Conditional Election
God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man’s will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner’s choice of Christ, not God’s choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.
Calvinist - Unconditional Election
God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response of obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God’s choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God’s choice of the sinner, not the sinner’s choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.
Arminian - Universal Redemption or General Atonement
Christ’s redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone’s sins. Christ’s redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.
Calvinist - Particular Redemption or Limited Atonement
Christ’s redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ’s redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation.
Arminian - The Holy Spirit Can Be Effectually Resisted
The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit’s call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man’s contribution) proceeds and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man’s free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ’s saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God’s grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.
Calvinist - The Efficacious Call of the Spirit or Irresistible Grace
In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man’s will, nor is He dependent upon man’s cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God’s grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.
Arminian - Falling from Grace
Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ–that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost.
Calvinist - Perseverance of the Saints
All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end.
According to Arminianism
Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond)—man’s response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, “choose” to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man’s will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation. Rejected by the Synod of Dort. This was the system of thought contained in the “Remonstrance” (though the “five points” were not originally arranged in this order). It was submitted by the Arminians to the Church of Holland in 1610 for adoption but was rejected by the Synod of Dort in 1619 on the ground that it was unscriptural.
According to Calvinism
Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ’s death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation. Reaffirmed by the Synod of Dort. This system of theology was reaffirmed by the Synod of Dort in 1619 as the doctrine of salvation contained in the Holy Scriptures. The system was at that time formulated into “five points” (in answer to the five points submitted by the Arminians) and has ever since been known as “the five points of Calvinism.”
Your Arminianism/Calvinism point by point comparison is something I’ll study (and confirm) and use for future reference. Thanks for the information!
According to scripture, all that our Lord God does in time (which he created for our benefit) for our conversion, justification, and final glorification is based upon, and emanates from, an eternal decree of election or predestination, according to which God, before the foundation of the world, selected us in His Son, our Savior, Jesus Christ. We were selected out of the vast collection of all sinful mankind into faith, the adoption of sons, and to everlasting life; this election is not based on any good fact or facet, nor any action or work of the elect, but is based solely on God’s gift of grace, and the good pleasure of His will in Christ Jesus. So far as I can tell and believe, the Bible does not teach reprobation, or what one might call the election (God’s choice) of wrath for those who are lost. This is because God earnestly desires the salvation of all; simply and inexplicably, the lost are lost by their own attributes. To truly comprehend this is beyond my human abilities.
I cannot begin to harmonize and resolve into agreement the doctrine of universal grace (God’s wish for all to be saved), and the concept of election (a Creator’s logical prerogative of foreknowledge and selection), and salvation by the gift of grace alone. The election of souls by God’s grace, will not overcome all human (and sinful) doubt. But understanding ones election will make the believer acutely aware of the incomparable generosity and glory of the grace of God, serving also as a constant motivation to sanctification, give us great comfort during the trials and tribulations of our earthly life, and the blessed reassurance of eternal salvation.
In summary, many are very uncomfortable with the concept of pre-destination because it obliterates the prideful emotion of self-generated hope, which is indelibly ingrained into our sinful human nature, and is reflected in the flawed concepts of free-will and salvation by works! This kind of “hope” is a self-flattering sentiment that dishonors God and negates the work done on the Cross. Our only true and unselfish “hope” lies in our faith in Christ Crucified!!! Because it all comes full circle in the stark realization that the will of the created can contribute nothing to the will of the Creator!
I feel it is appropriate at this point to highlight the infinite difference between our human “will”, and the “Will” of God!
Isa 64:6 (NET) We are all like one who is unclean, all our so-called righteous acts are like a menstrual rag in your sight. …
This is how God looks at my works, my ‘so-called righteous acts’. I have nothing to contribute to my salvation that is acceptable to God, further more, according to God’s word, by insisting that I must contribute my efforts to assist in my salvation I deny God’s grace, God then tells me that I am saved by His grace through faith, never by works.
Rom 3:27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
1Co 1:4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Romans 4:2-5 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God , and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Rom 9:30-32 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; (31) but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. (32) Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
Please take the role of being a hospital chaplain for awhile. What would you tell this man? ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNuSBGa1mLM ) Indeed, salvation is a very personal matter.
