Please take the role of being a hospital chaplain for awhile. What would you tell this man? ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNuSBGa1mLM ) Indeed, salvation is a very personal matter.
Dennis, wow that was a powerful video clip.
The man says, “I need answers...your uncertainty is only making things worse”.
Postmoderns criticize the certainty of truth, the certainty of the gospel and the certainty of texts like John 14:6 or John 5:24. Those who actually believe these words in their literal sense are branded as “fundamentalists” and are easily cast aside in favor of a new and improved version of the truth—a truth that has no hard edges, causes no divisions, and has no power to save.
Yet in our dying moments, these words of our Lord will be the most treasured thing we possess.
In summary, many are very uncomfortable with the concept of pre-destination because it obliterates the prideful emotion of self-generated hope, which is indelibly ingrained into our sinful human nature, and is reflected in the flawed concepts of free-will and salvation by works! This kind of “hope” is a self-flattering sentiment that dishonors God and negates the work done on the Cross. Our only true and unselfish “hope” lies in our faith in Christ Crucified!!! Because it all comes full circle in the stark realization that the will of the created can contribute nothing to the will of the Creator!
Can it be so difficult to understand that what is uncomfortable with the concept of pre-destination has nothing to do with selfgenerated hope of salvation by works but the question of how a good God would create bilions of people for suffering and death, and often believed that these bilions of unelected people are created for populating hell.
Can it be so difficult to understand that believers in free-will also lay our hope in Christ Crucified and no salvation by works?
Can it be so difficult to understand that what is uncomfortable with the concept of pre-destination has nothing to do with selfgenerated hope of salvation by works but the question of how a good God would create bilions of people for suffering and death, and often believed that these bilions of unelected people are created for populating hell.
Can it be so difficult to understand that believers in free-will also lay our hope in Christ Crucified and no salvation by works?
västergötland, believe me, I understand where you are coming from because as a “former Arminian”, I had the same questions as you. I had to be honest with myself that if I looked deeply into what I believed about God, I differentiated myself from the non-saved by my act of faith—my act of accepting Christ as Savior. This meant that I was perhaps smarter or made better decisions than the billions of unsaved. Looking at this honestly, I had to admit that if such was the case, I was at least partially in charge of my own salvation and deserved some credit for at least making the right choice.
Inherent in my own dislike of Calvinism was the idea that God could not possibly be “good” if He saved some and not others. The key for me was to see that I was making God bend to my idea of what He should be like and what would make Him “fair”. By studying Scripture, I finally realized that everyone on this earth stands guilty before Him because of Adam’s sin (Romans 3:19-20, Romans 5:12-14), and not one of usdeserves anything more than punishment and eternal separation from our Holy God.
After understanding this, I could not help but see how God is being more than fair by saving even one person, and how if I found myself expressing faith in Jesus, it is something He did, not me. Realizing this, I have absolutely no grounds for boasting (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:27), nor do I have grounds for accusing God of being unfair (Romans 9:14-24). This is the only way in which God alone can have the glory and not share it with His creation.
Surely no news for you, but still these sermons contain good news for Adventists. I come to the third this far and it fits quite nicely with what is said here.
Just a personal note here. I am wondering if you are of German descent due to your family name. If so, I speak and write German fairly well. I just happened to notice those “umlauts” in your name (smile).
Just a personal note here. I am wondering if you are of German descent due to your family name. If so, I speak and write German fairly well. I just happened to notice those “umlauts” in your name (smile).
Dennis Fischer
Dear Dennis,
Our good friend västergötland has mentioned in a previous post that his (actually, do I know his gender?) screen name is from his country/area of residence. I believe that Västergötland is also called West Sweden. If I am incorrect about this please forgive me, my dear friend that we all know as Västergötland...!
Your country is beautiful! I am employed by Ford Motor Company and I worked with an excellent engineer from Volvo Car for two years and enjoyed his professionalism and company greatly! Also, västergötland, your written English is excellent!
There are differences between Arminianism and Calvinism with regards to how one is saved. Please examine the comparison below taken from Romans: An Interpretive Outline by David N. Steele and Curtis C. Thomas. These comparisons are based on the Arminian “remonstrances” addressed at the Synod of Dort in 1618-1619.
Arminian - Free Will or Human Ability
Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man’s freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man’s freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God’s Spirit and be regenerated or resist God’s grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit’s assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man’s act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner’s gift to God; it is man’s contribution to salvation.
Calvinist - Total Inability or Total Depravity
Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not–indeed he cannot–choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit’s assistance to bring a sinner to Christ–it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God’s gift of salvation–it is God’s gift to the sinner, not the sinner’s gift to God.
Arminian - Conditional Election
God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man’s will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner’s choice of Christ, not God’s choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.
Calvinist - Unconditional Election
God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response of obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God’s choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God’s choice of the sinner, not the sinner’s choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.
Arminian - Universal Redemption or General Atonement
Christ’s redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone’s sins. Christ’s redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.
Calvinist - Particular Redemption or Limited Atonement
Christ’s redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ’s redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation.
Arminian - The Holy Spirit Can Be Effectually Resisted
The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit’s call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man’s contribution) proceeds and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man’s free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ’s saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God’s grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.
Calvinist - The Efficacious Call of the Spirit or Irresistible Grace
In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man’s will, nor is He dependent upon man’s cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God’s grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.
Arminian - Falling from Grace
Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ–that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost.
Calvinist - Perseverance of the Saints
All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end.
According to Arminianism
Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond)—man’s response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, “choose” to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man’s will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation. Rejected by the Synod of Dort. This was the system of thought contained in the “Remonstrance” (though the “five points” were not originally arranged in this order). It was submitted by the Arminians to the Church of Holland in 1610 for adoption but was rejected by the Synod of Dort in 1619 on the ground that it was unscriptural.
According to Calvinism
Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ’s death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation. Reaffirmed by the Synod of Dort. This system of theology was reaffirmed by the Synod of Dort in 1619 as the doctrine of salvation contained in the Holy Scriptures. The system was at that time formulated into “five points” (in answer to the five points submitted by the Arminians) and has ever since been known as “the five points of Calvinism.”
Thanks Greg for this very helpful outline of the very important differences in the two views of salvation.
As J.I. Packer says one system of salvation speaks of a God who makes salvation possible for everyone, but there is no guarantee anyone can be saved by this system, because it depends on human free will, whereas the other system speaks of a God who GUARANTEES the salvation of everyone who was called prior to the creation of the world..
One system features a Jesus who is just waiting for people to want to come to Him, and the other system features a Jesus who is all powerful to save, and goes after the stray sheep until all are in the fold.
Thanks Greg for this very helpful outline of the very important differences in the two views of salvation.
As J.I. Packer says one system of salvation speaks of a God who makes salvation possible for everyone, but there is no guarantee anyone can be saved by this system, because it depends on human free will, whereas the other system speaks of a God who GUARANTEES the salvation of everyone who was called prior to the creation of the world..
One system features a Jesus who is just waiting for people to want to come to Him, and the other system features a Jesus who is all powerful to save, and goes after the stray sheep until all are in the fold.
Stan
God makes salvation possible for everyone and yet there is still the same guarantee of salvation for it is still founded on the power of the cross of Christ.
Jesus is also still the sheepherd who goes after the stray sheep, just as He is the Father who waits for the wayward son to come home.
The question truly is, did Jesus die for the sins of the world or did He die for the sins of a small minority of the world?
The salvational difference of the Good Shepherd pursuing the lost sheep is that, in Arminianism, he merely pleads with the lost sheep to come home, and it is entirely up the lost lamb to agree with the proposal. Imagine a bruised, hurt lamb caught in a thicket unable to even accept the offer of freedom. However, in Calvinism, the Good Shepherd lovingly reaches down and picks up the helpless lamb and places him securely in His arms and carries him safely to the sheepfold. Thankfully, we have a loving Savior who cares enough about His sheep to actively rescue them and to keep them forever secure. Any sheep herder, worth his salt, still does the same today.
For example, Paul on the road to Damascus didn’t agree to being struck down, to being stabbed with a thorn (stake) in his flesh, and to being assaulted with blindness. This was all done AGAINST his fallen will. Suddenly, however, Paul’s choices were God’s choices. This is called “regeneration” or being “born again.” God is never a part of a failed rescue mission. Paul had no choice in his physical birth and neither did he have a choice in his spiritual birth (both were DONE FOR HIM). To God alone be all the glory!
The salvational difference of the Good Shepherd pursuing the lost sheep is that, in Arminianism, he merely pleads with the lost sheep to come home, and it is entirely up the lost lamb to agree with the proposal. Imagine a bruised, hurt lamb caught in a thicket unable to even accept the offer of freedom. However, in Calvinism, the Good Shepherd lovingly reaches down and picks up the helpless lamb and places him securely in His arms and carries him safely to the sheepfold. Thankfully, we have a loving Savior who cares enough about His sheep to actively rescue them and to keep them forever secure. Any sheep herder, worth his salt, still does the same today.
For example, the Apostle Paul on the road to Damascus didn’t agree to being struck down, to being stabbed with a thorn (stake) in his flesh, and to being assaulted with blindness. This was all done AGAINST his fallen will. Suddenly, however, Paul’s choices were God’s choices. This is called “regeneration” or being “born again.” God is never a part of a failed rescue mission. Paul had no choice in his physical birth and neither did he have a choice in his spiritual birth (both were DONE FOR HIM). To God alone be all the glory!
His grace still amazes me,
Dennis Fischer
Dennis,
Your Good Sheppard analogy was exactly what I was thinking and is, of course, a common biblical example also! May I now bring in the issue/question of election and add it to your example?
The idea of pre-destination or election might simply be thought of as a spot (or better yet a brand) placed upon the forehead of each of the elect sheep that only God can see. I like the brand idea (as in branding an animal for identification purposes) much better because we can now envision, in our limited capacity to understand, an infallible God affixing this mark on us before we were created. Again, the mark is indelible and only visible to Him that made us. We have no concept of the Holy and Just Criterion that the Lord uses to decide which of the sheep are marked as the elect and which are not.
Now, with this in mind, and in the situation that Dennis relates above, it is perhaps easier to see how Christ would know whom to pursue, find, pickup, and eternally save because He was the One wielding the branding iron! He does all this for a lost sheep that can do NOTHING for itself regarding its own rescue!
Our dear friend västergötland mentioned in his last post:
västergötland - 26 February 2008 12:15 AM
...The question truly is, did Jesus die for the sins of the world or did He die for the sins of a small minority of the world?
But who are we to decide that only a “small minority” will be saved? No one that I know of in this forum has stated that a firm belief in Calvinism was part of the requirement for salvation! It is my belief that all who cling to the hope of and have faith in the promise of John 3:16 are truly rescued by Christ! It is our job to spread the “Good News” so that all can have the opportunity to know the Truth and be saved, or reject the Truth and be lost. The whole concept of pre-destination is that there is NOTHING that God doesn’t know! It is we sinners who have a problem with God’s omniscience and foreknowledge!
The salvational difference of the Good Shepherd pursuing the lost sheep is that, in Arminianism, he merely pleads with the lost sheep to come home, and it is entirely up the lost lamb to agree with the proposal. Imagine a bruised, hurt lamb caught in a thicket unable to even accept the offer of freedom. However, in Calvinism, the Good Shepherd lovingly reaches down and picks up the helpless lamb and places him securely in His arms and carries him safely to the sheepfold. Thankfully, we have a loving Savior who cares enough about His sheep to actively rescue them and to keep them forever secure. Any sheep herder, worth his salt, still does the same today.
For example, Paul on the road to Damascus didn’t agree to being struck down, to being stabbed with a thorn (stake) in his flesh, and to being assaulted with blindness. This was all done AGAINST his fallen will. Suddenly, however, Paul’s choices were God’s choices. This is called “regeneration” or being “born again.” God is never a part of a failed rescue mission. Paul had no choice in his physical birth and neither did he have a choice in his spiritual birth (both were DONE FOR HIM). To God alone be all the glory!
His grace still amazes me,
Dennis Fischer
The problem here is the word “unable”. Of course if God would leave humanity unable to say yes to Him, then it would be worthless. But God does not leave the sheep unable to accept the offer of freedom. The Lord seeking the lost is a true and good image of how God deals with humanity. But it is only a picture and it is not the only picture. Maybe you could tell me how God as the Father of the prodigal sons fit the view you are trying to make.
The analogy of the lamb caught in the thicket could not free itself of its own accord--no matter how enticing the invitation to be free. The animal desperately needed a savior (shepherd) to reach down and rescue it. Likewise, fallen humanity is at the total mercy of God. We cannot choose what we do not desire. In our fallen state, we do not desire Jesus. Unless God does something first to us, we would never desire Him. Thus, regeneration precedes faith (i.e., the case of Paul). Our faith (belief) is a gift from God.
Arminianism would have us believe that God is at the mercy of the fallen will of man. God is not a gambler. We are not the captains of our eternal destiny. Salvation is from the Lord alone! God gets ALL the glory for the salvation of His elect. And note this, if God wanted to save everyone, He is most certainly big enough and powerful enough to do it. However, that is not His sovereign plan according to Scripture. The biblical truth is that we all deserve eternal separation from God, and it is most amazing that His grace would save even one of us. We are all born as rebels against God. This condition is called “original sin.”
Predestination is not the same as foreknowledge. In predestination, God actively works to bring about the foreknowledge. Our Savior not only knows the future (foreknowledge), but He actively works to make certain it pans out according to His divine will (predestination). He even knows the number of hairs on our head. As the song rightly says, “He knows my name.” It’s all about Him!
Jesus’ parable about the prodigal son reveals that the father (representing our Heavenly Father) believed in “ONCE A SON, ALWAYS A SON.” The prodigal son certainly didn’t act like a son. Likewise, acting like one, doesn’t get us saved and not acting like one, doesn’t get us unsaved or unadopted.
The idea of pre-destination or election might simply be thought of as a spot (or better yet a brand) placed upon the forehead of each of the elect sheep that only God can see. I like the brand idea (as in branding an animal for identification purposes) much better because we can now envision, in our limited capacity to understand, an infallible God affixing this mark on us before we were created. Again, the mark is indelible and only visible to Him that made us. We have no concept of the Holy and Just Criterion that the Lord uses to decide which of the sheep are marked as the elect and which are not.
Now, with this in mind, and in the situation that Dennis relates above, it is perhaps easier to see how Christ would know whom to pursue, find, pickup, and eternally save because He was the One wielding the branding iron! He does all this for a lost sheep that can do NOTHING for itself regarding its own rescue!
Or we could go and read what Jesus Himself had to say about this. In Lukes gospel we read in the 4th chapter:
18"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,
19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”
Jesus pursued, found, picked up and gave salvation to the poor, prisoners, blind and oppressed. The compassion of our Lord rests with everyone who is helpless, which with the view of total depravity includes everyone. Our Lord is equally caring about every human alive, His compassion knows no boundaries.
Our dear friend västergötland mentioned in his last post:
västergötland - 26 February 2008 12:15 AM
...The question truly is, did Jesus die for the sins of the world or did He die for the sins of a small minority of the world?
But who are we to decide that only a “small minority” will be saved?
Exactly, but it does follow that if some individuals are elected for salvation, everyone else is by default elected for damnation. This is important because it makes a difference to who our God is. Does God elect some to life and others to damnation or does God want that every human come to Him and live? I believe that God was honest when He said that He does not want the death of a single sinner, but that it is His will that all sinners turn to Him and live.
No one that I know of in this forum has stated that a firm belief in Calvinism was part of the requirement for salvation!
True, but it is non the less the majority view on this forum that Calvinism best explains reality. Therefore this is what I am assuming in the posts here.
It is my belief that all who cling to the hope of and have faith in the promise of John 3:16 are truly rescued by Christ!
Here the question is, does everyone who hear John 3:16 have an equal chance to cling to it in faith? Or can only the elect cling to it in faith in the first place?
It is our job to spread the “Good News” so that all can have the opportunity to know the Truth and be saved, or reject the Truth and be lost. The whole concept of pre-destination is that there is NOTHING that God doesn’t know! It is we sinners who have a problem with God’s omniscience and foreknowledge!
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