Thanks Dennis. I can’t respond fully right now ... But will say that I AM SAVED. It is not just a hope ... it is a done deal. It is what Christ did that saved me. What I do on this earth does not matter unless I decide I don’t want the saved status He gave me. I don’t need the IJ to say that. But it can say that now or later ... who cares. The result is the same .... I AM SAVED.
Your perception of being saved does not pass the scrutiny of Scripture. Seventh-day Adventists do not believe in being adopted into God’s wonderful family here and now. Moreover, once God adopts his people they are forever secure. They cannot become unadopted nor unreborn. To Adventists, however, salvation is a future event if they can get perfect enough and/or if they remain sufficiently obedient (see COL, page 69). The SDA view provides absolutely no eternal security in Christ. The SDA stance is simply an old semi-Pelagian view like our Catholic friends also believe. In Adventism, salvation is merely a hopeful wish at best. The SDA concept of salvation is wholly dependent on the verdict of their ongoing investigation judgment alibi. On the other hand, biblical Christianity teaches that we persevere because God preserves us.
Interestingly, as former Adventists, we are are totally exempt from the investigative judgment process. Ellen White has already sternly declared our eternal destiny (without any investigative judgment verdict) as follows: “I saw that the holy Sabbath is, and will be, the separating wall between the true Israel of God and unbelievers...And if one believed, and kept the Sabbath, ... and then gave it up… they would shut the gates of the Holy City against themselves, as sure as a God that rules in heaven above.” (A Word to the Little Flock, page 18)
The gift of our eternal security in Christ should be a most serious consideration (1 John 5:11-13). We are admonished not to be merely “hope so” Christians, but rather to be “know so” Christians. “For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable” (Romans 11:29). The Apostle John, confirming our eternal security in Christ, clearly says, “These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life” (1 John 5:13). Furthermore, Jesus declared, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one” (John 10:27-30).
Thankfully, we no longer adhere to a “roller-coaster” religion that teaches a fall from grace with every act of sin. This translates into Seventh-day Adventists living in fear of losing their salvation several times a day. Let us, instead, embrace the promise of “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus” (Philippians 1:6).
I hate to disagree with you but apparently you’ve not stepped foot in an Adventist church recently.
We are saved. It is a done deal because what saves us is what Jesus has already accomplished. Done sealed and delivered. All we have to do is to accept it. That is our ‘work’.
I am saved. I am saved until such a time that I tell Jesus ... NO WAY. “I don’t accept you anymore”. Then it is done.
The IJ is not for us ... any of us. If you have read the Great Controversy ... you would know that our belief is that the IJ is for the Universe to see that God is Just. It is not for us ... for we can know that we are saved. Saved by the blood. Like I say ... our saved status is a done deal. Praise God. I am now judged by HIS works ... NOT Mine.
Your stance is not an official SDA position. Ellen White declared that no one should ever say that they are saved. In fact, Adventists consider it merely “presumption” to declare one’s eternal adoption into God’s wonderful family. I am pleased to learn that you do not accept all of the official doctrinal statements and position papers coming from the General Conference hierarchy. Truly, our beliefs must be based upon God’s Word alone.
As you currently acknowledge that some SDA doctrines do not pass the close scrutiny of Scripture, it is my heartfelt prayer that you will continue to probe the claims of Adventism even deeper to determine yet other aberrations of the Christian faith. Those who are intent upon accurate answers will no longer remain in a toxic-faith system.
Dennis, again you misrepresent the SDA view. What I said is not presumptive at all. Notice , I did not say I would be saved. I said I AM saved. SDAs believe that they are saved ... but we do not know the future. It IS possible for one to change ones mind and not desire to go to heaven. God will not force those who do not want to go to Heaven. If at some point I delcare to God that I no longer believe in Him and do not desire to go to Heaven .... then He will not force the issue. That is the Adventist view. And that is what I clearly articulated.
The reason why your view of salvation is not “presumptuous” in Adventist parlance is because it is not eternal security in Christ. Your salvation is entirely in your hands--a man-centered theology of God helping you to save yourself. Moreover, no devout Adventist can declare being saved (past tense) without the investigative judgment verdict and without Satan bearing your sins in a meritorious annihilation to finally blot out your sins. Inconsistently and shockingly, Seventh-day Adventists claim to have two sin-bearers; namely, Christ and Satan (see GC, pages 422, 485, 486). Can heresy ever get any worse than this?
It is tiring to have to keep addressing your straw men and misrepresentations of Adventist belief. It seems that because you say it is ... you have this grandiose idea that you can attack our belief with your false heresy. The issue with Satan is one of punishment not salvation. But you would not want to know our beliefs ... you would rather misrepresent. I don’t see that this is Christian. Instead of proclaiming. How about asking.?
GH, Dennis quoted Ellen White, the only “authoritative source of truth” specified in the SDA Fundamental Beliefs. Instead of dealing with the quotes, you simply claim Dennis is misrepresenting Adventism.
It is not “un-Christian” to ask questions about Ellen White. If Dennis has misrepresented her words and the beliefs of Adventism, deal with the quotes and tell us how they have been misrepresented. Until now, you’ve chosen the easy way out by simply dismissing all criticism, implying we are not Christians and claiming we are teaching heresy. Ironically, you will vigorously defend a prophetess who made Satan the anti-type for the spotless goat used in the Levitical day of atonement—a goat who signified the coming spotless Messiah who would take away the sins of the redeemed.
GH, we are not attacking straw men here, we’re dealing with the words of your prophetess. We are measuring her by the standard of Scripture, just as God commanded us.
GH, your response to Dennis is further evidence that Adventists have a hard time questioning the words of Ellen White, even if they claim to be evangelical or progressive. If you want to put weight behind your criticism of us, deal with the words of Ellen White that we’ve quoted. And before you repeat the argument that Ellen White’s teachings are optional, please consider that Adventism wouldn’t exist without her. Ellen White made truth claims that she said came from God. We are simply examining those claims and we ask you to do the same.
GH, I am saddened that you are “cornered” by Ellen White. You know that much of what she wrote is not defensible (you’ve admitted this elsewhere on this forum), yet you continue to defend her by criticizing anyone who points out her flaws. I am sorry this is where you are, but I can tell you that we have been in your shoes and we sincerely desire to share with you a Christianity that is not beholden to a 19th century woman who misrepresented God. We continue this discussion because we love and care about you, not because we despise you.
But will say that I AM SAVED. It is not just a hope ... it is a done deal. It is what Christ did that saved me.
Glorify Him - 10 August 2008 06:58 PM
Dennis, again you misrepresent the SDA view. What I said is not presumptive at all. Notice , I did not say I would be saved. I said I AM saved. SDAs believe that they are saved ... but we do not know the future. It IS possible for one to change ones mind and not desire to go to heaven. God will not force those who do not want to go to Heaven. If at some point I delcare to God that I no longer believe in Him and do not desire to go to Heaven .... then He will not force the issue. That is the Adventist view. And that is what I clearly articulated.
GH,
When Stan asked you if you’re saved, he didn’t ask for an adventist answer “I’m saved in the present, potentially in the future”, which by the way is a perfect Roman-Catholic answer. He asked for an answer in the sense of a “done deal”, in the sense that when I believe in Christ I receive the full benefits of his life, death and resurrection. Since his atonement was finished on the cross, it remains that there is in the present no condemnation, either for present or for future sins, and consequently the believer is assured of his present and future salvation, already in the heavenly places, even if his body is on earth. These are the benefits of the finished atonement. Being “saved” means a past act which has finality, and is not temporarily, hanging in balance, “will he, or will he not be saved in the future?.. Who knows” That’s of course in harmony with the classical view of salvation and the way assurance is offered by the Adventist gospel.
But this is not what we believe about being saved. It’s a pity that you got offended at Stan’s question about your salvation, nevertheless your last statements proved that Stan was right in asking you that question, because you gave us a misleading answer by affirming that you’re saved. We have a different understanding about what being saved means, and it’s no use to claim that you agree with us on this point, and that we are criticizing harshly the SDA Church for not promoting the gospel of the finished atonement of Christ. It is true that the terminology is similar with the protestant view of finished atonement, but the meaning behind the words is different, as reflected in the different understandings of what “saved” means. Under cross examination, your statement of being saved is proved to be at best misleading and at worst deceptive.
To be saved means what is beautifully depicted by the parable of the lost sheep. The Shepherd searches for the lost sheep, takes it on His shoulders and carries her all the way back to the fold. Praise God that He’s not losing any sheep on the way to heaven.
But will say that I AM SAVED. It is not just a hope ... it is a done deal. It is what Christ did that saved me.
Glorify Him - 10 August 2008 06:58 PM
Dennis, again you misrepresent the SDA view. What I said is not presumptive at all. Notice , I did not say I would be saved. I said I AM saved. SDAs believe that they are saved ... but we do not know the future. It IS possible for one to change ones mind and not desire to go to heaven. God will not force those who do not want to go to Heaven. If at some point I delcare to God that I no longer believe in Him and do not desire to go to Heaven .... then He will not force the issue. That is the Adventist view. And that is what I clearly articulated.
GH,
When Stan asked you if you’re saved, he didn’t ask for an adventist answer “I’m saved in the present, potentially in the future”, which by the way is a perfect Roman-Catholic answer. He asked for an answer in the sense of a “done deal”, in the sense that when I believe in Christ I receive the full benefits of his life, death and resurrection. Since his atonement was finished on the cross, it remains that there is in the present no condemnation, either for present or for future sins, and consequently the believer is assured of his present and future salvation, already in the heavenly places, even if his body is on earth. These are the benefits of the finished atonement. Being “saved” means a past act which has finality, and is not temporarily, hanging in balance, “will he, or will he not be saved in the future?.. Who knows” That’s of course in harmony with the classical view of salvation and the way assurance is offered by the Adventist gospel.
But this is not what we believe about being saved. It’s a pity that you got offended at Stan’s question about your salvation, nevertheless your last statements proved that Stan was right in asking you that question, because you gave us a misleading answer by affirming that you’re saved. We have a different understanding about what being saved means, and it’s no use to claim that you agree with us on this point, and that we are criticizing harshly the SDA Church for not promoting the gospel of the finished atonement of Christ. It is true that the terminology is similar with the protestant view of finished atonement, but the meaning behind the words is different, as reflected in the different understandings of what “saved” means. Under cross examination, your statement of being saved is proved to be at best misleading and at worst deceptive.
To be saved means what is beautifully depicted by the parable of the lost sheep. The Shepherd searches for the lost sheep, takes it on His shoulders and carries her all the way back to the fold. Praise God that He’s not losing any sheep on the way to heaven.
Gabriel
Thank you Gabriel. You have accurately described what it means to be saved. It is a done deal. It was accomplished some 2,000 years ago. There is no question of my saved status. I am so glad that we agree and that you have a full gospel understanding of it. Praise God. There is no sin in my past, present, or future that would take away from my saved status. Christ accomplished that. Who am I to say that HIS sacrifice is not sufficient for my sins.
The SDA version of salvation (here and now) is only until one commits the next sin. This boils down to Seventh-day Adventists conceivably losing their salvation several times a day. Ellen White firmly warned that even an “idle moment” will forfeit one’s salvation. This unbiblical and outrageous teaching is a part of their gospel of fear that results in retarded growth and crippling doubts.
The SDA version of salvation (here and now) is only until one commits the next sin. This boils down to Seventh-day Adventists conceivably losing their salvation several times a day. Ellen White firmly warned that even an “idle moment” will forfeit one’s salvation. This unbiblical and outrageous teaching is a part of their gospel of fear that results in retarded growth and crippling doubts.
Dennis Fischer
I would agree with what you have said .... if anyone actually believed this. It does sound sad. Gladly ... I’ve never heard of anyone who believes in this stuff and I’ve been in the church for over a half century.
It has become overwhelmingly obvious that your supposedly lengthy time in Adventism doesn’t amount to knowing what they officially believe. There is no SDA minister that is allowed to talk like you do. If you happen to know one, however, give us his name. Thank you in advance for your prompt cooperation in supplying his or her name with church location.
It is interesting that those outside of the church claim to know more about the church than those INside . Very strange. Despite your misperceptions about the beliefs of the Seventh day Adventist Church .... I will continue to proclaim the truth about our church. I am sorry that you happen to have met up with some extremists that believed differently than the church. But, that does not change what we as a church promote.
