The Roman Catholic church also makes many other claims, as well. 

To name a few:

* Papal succession goes back to the apostle Peter.

* Mary was sinless.

* The Pope is Christ’s representative on Earth.

* The Catholic church gave us the Bible.

Are we to accept these claims as legitimate, also?

Protestant 101,

Speaking of “shadows” pointing to the Cross, do you deny that the special Sabbath shewbread pointed to Jesus, the Bread of Life, and the special Sabbath sacrificial requirements pointed to Jesus, the Lamb of God?  This clearly reveals the ceremonial nature of the festal, weekly Sabbath.  No other commandment in the Decalogue has such ceremonial or ritual significance. 

Obviously, this is why the weekly Sabbath is listed as one of the seven festal convocations given to the “sons of Israel” (Lev. 23:1-3 NASB).  Adventists aren’t even observing a shadow.  They’re honoring a literal day, not a shadow but as the reality itself.  They have made a creation into a holy icon.

Resting in Him,

Dennis Fischer
Matt. 11:28-30

Protestant 101 - 19 June 2009 06:40 PM

Well; that text simply does not say “the seventh-day sabbath” OF THE LORD THY GOD is a “shadow.” You have not proved that yet by a long shot.

Everywhere else in the New Testament, when the greek word for sabbath is used -sabbaton - it refers to the seventh-day sabbath. Without any shred of evidence to the contrary, adventists claim that in this place, in Colossians, the greek word sabbaton means something else than the seventh-day sabbath. The burden of proof rests on Adventists to show that the greek word sabbaton does not mean what in means in every other place where it is used in the New Testament.

Protestant 101 - 19 June 2009 06:40 PM

You have not proved that yet by a long shot. In regards to the change of the Sabbath; as I said, the Catholic Church does lay claim to that action - of course some of their apologists don’t like to say they “changed the sabbath” they just say “we changed the solemnity to” or we “changed the obligation to” Sunday.

And the catholic claim to change the sabbath is based on the claim that the Roman Catholic Church includes the apostolic church with Peter the first Pope who, together with the other apostles changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday. Protestants acknowledge that the change in the day of worship occurred in the time of apostles, under their authority, but rejected Rome’s claim that it was Rome that changed the day. Now, if you admit that the Rome’s claim is right, you should also admit that Peter was the first Pope and together with the apostles changed the day in favor of the church of Rome.

You can’t take Rome’s claim and split it in two, saying that they are right when they claim that they changed the day, but they are wrong in their claim that the change of the day was made by the first Pope of Rome, Peter and the apostles. You can either accept the claim in its entirety or reject it. There is no middle ground.

The Adventists, unfortunately, tell people just half the truth of Rome’s claim in order to back-up their version of the history of the church. And as the thief crying stop thief, they accuse other churches of telling lies to their people about the change of the sabbath. This behavior hardly recommends adventists as a true source for understanding the issues surrounding the day of worship.

Gabriel

Dennis - 19 June 2009 07:49 PM

Protestant 101,

You have so far failed to answer my primary question of wanting to know the name of the Roman Catholic Pope who supposedly changed the day of rest from Saturday to Sunday.  Having problems finding his name?  Also, you have so far failed to answer my question as to why the SDA Church has withheld his name for the last 146 years.  If a Catholic Pope changed the day of rest, as Adventists insist he did, then it is only fair to give his name.  To enhance your credibility, this would be the very least you could do.

Dennis Fischer

I have quoted current official Catholic sources in my post above.  Are you saying that Catholics are lying about this claim?  My statement said specifically, how that the Catholic Church makes this claim about the Sabbath.  The evidence is publically verifiable.  Are you having trouble accepting the facts?

And Gabriel, where does the Bible tell us that Peter changed the seventh-day Sabbath to the first day?  Are you having trouble finding that as well?  It seems that neither I, or the Adventist Church are the ones witholding anything.

Catholics give the exact same reasons as you for the change of the Sabbath that was made by them.  That must be something else you are having trouble with.

Dennis - 19 June 2009 09:03 PM

Protestant 101,

Speaking of “shadows” pointing to the Cross, do you deny that the special Sabbath shewbread pointed to Jesus, the Bread of Life, and the special Sabbath sacrificial requirements pointed to Jesus, the Lamb of God?  This clearly reveals the ceremonial nature of the festal, weekly Sabbath.  No other commandment in the Decalogue has such ceremonial or ritual significance. 

Obviously, this is why the weekly Sabbath is listed as one of the seven festal convocations given to the “sons of Israel” (Lev. 23:1-3 NASB).  Adventists aren’t even observing a shadow.  They’re honoring a literal day, not a shadow but as the reality itself.  They have made a creation into a holy icon.

Resting in Him,

Dennis Fischer
Matt. 11:28-30

Hmmm, and you want to accuse Adventists of “leaving things out?  Why did you skip over the next few verses in lev.23, and just give us the short form of the first three verses?

Lev 23:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

Even just including the one extra verse, it adds a whole different context than what you offer here.  And the shadows are mentioned in context with the 14th, 15th, and 1st day and so on.  Lev. 23 does not contain what you say it does.

The “sheaf was waved” and the burn’t offering sacrifice, along with a lot of other sacrifices you refer to “on the morrow after the Sabbath;” (vs 11) showing that you are having trouble finding a text in leviticus that comes right out and directly says the seventh-day Sabbath is a shadow.  There were other days (plural) also referred to as “a sabbath” but “THE” sabbath (singular tense) always refers to the seventh-day, not a “shadow.”

Protestant 101 - 20 June 2009 11:53 PM

And Gabriel, where does the Bible tell us that Peter changed the seventh-day Sabbath to the first day?  Are you having trouble finding that as well?  It seems that neither I, or the Adventist Church are the ones witholding anything.

Protestant 101, are you serious about this charge? You are the one telling me that the catholic claim about changing the day is true, not I. I reject the catholic claim. I just presented the part of the catholic claim that you left it out. You conveniently left out two facts of their claim:

1. the Roman Catholic Church extends back to the apostles, and has Peter as the first Pope.

2. The change of the day of worship was made in the first century

3. It was made by the apostles, who acted in the benefit of the Roman Catholic Church. 

That is the entire claim about the change of the day of worship that the Roman Catholic Church makes. If you insist that their claim is true, you should admit that the Roman Catholic Church extended to the days of apostles, and Peter is the first Pope. If you’re unwilling to admit this, you should better renounce arguing that the claim of the Roman Catholic Church is true.

Protestant 101 - 20 June 2009 11:53 PM

Catholics give the exact same reasons as you for the change of the Sabbath that was made by them.  That must be something else you are having trouble with.

I’m rejecting their claim that they changed the sabbath. I’m not recognizing that the apostles renounced saturday keeping based on their inherent authority, but on the basis that the Sabbath was a shadow fulfilled in Christ. As the new moons and festivals are no longer kept by Christians on the basis that they are shadows fulfilled in Christ, the same is with the saturday sabbath.

Gabriel

GABRIEL PROKSCH - 21 June 2009 12:51 AM

Protestant 101 - 20 June 2009 11:53 PM

And Gabriel, where does the Bible tell us that Peter changed the seventh-day Sabbath to the first day?  Are you having trouble finding that as well?  It seems that neither I, or the Adventist Church are the ones witholding anything.

Protestant 101, are you serious about this charge? You are the one telling me that the catholic claim about changing the day is true, not I. I reject the catholic claim. I just presented the part of the catholic claim that you left it out. You conveniently left out two facts of their claim:

1. the Roman Catholic Church extends back to the apostles, and has Peter as the first Pope.

2. The change of the day of worship was made in the first century

3. It was made by the apostles, who acted in the benefit of the Roman Catholic Church. 

That is the entire claim about the change of the day of worship that the Roman Catholic Church makes. If you insist that their claim is true, you should admit that the Roman Catholic Church extended to the days of apostles, and Peter is the first Pope. If you’re unwilling to admit this, you should better renounce arguing that the claim of the Roman Catholic Church is true.

Protestant 101 - 20 June 2009 11:53 PM

Catholics give the exact same reasons as you for the change of the Sabbath that was made by them.  That must be something else you are having trouble with.

I’m rejecting their claim that they changed the sabbath. I’m not recognizing that the apostles renounced saturday keeping based on their inherent authority, but on the basis that the Sabbath was a shadow fulfilled in Christ. As the new moons and festivals are no longer kept by Christians on the basis that they are shadows fulfilled in Christ, the same is with the saturday sabbath.

Gabriel

Well this is what I am saying!  If what you say is true in your rejection of the Catholic claim, then you must be able to provide me with references that would definitively prove your point.  LOL I do know one thing - Catholics laugh at people who talk like you do about the issue.  Now, don’t forget, when you provide your proof, no proof-texting as sites like this so love to accuse their opponents of.

Aaron - 19 June 2009 08:07 PM

The Roman Catholic church also makes many other claims, as well. 

To name a few:

* Papal succession goes back to the apostle Peter.

* Mary was sinless.

* The Pope is Christ’s representative on Earth.

* The Catholic church gave us the Bible.

Are we to accept these claims as legitimate, also?

In this topic; I did not “leave out” anything pertinent to the topic at hand, as these other claims by the Catholics are not related to the Sabbath issues we have been discussing. Gabriel seems well-pleased to of course level yet another heinous accusation at me that I “deliberately left out” one of these other claims by Catholics; but no, I stated the claims pertinent to the Sabbath questions.

The onus is actually not on Adventists to prove anything about Col 2, for it is sites like this who proof-text with it.  You ignore the many scriptures that tell us the seventh-day Sabbath is not voided by God, and make this one text contradict all the rest of what the Bible says about the Sabbath - a strange hermeneutic indeed. And the funniest part of all is that the Catholic Church would be quite happy with your claims.

This is a very interesting thread. Really, I am not very concerned with what early Christian church members did as much as I am concerned with the example that Jesus lived out in His life. Luke 6:9 says, “Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?” In this passage along with numerous others, Jesus walked the walk and talked the talk of the seventh-day Sabbath. that’s good enough for me. I would never sit in judgment of another person and how or when they choose to worship as God leads them. But like Joshua said, “as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord” and follow His righteous example.

mlw3355 - 03 March 2010 09:55 AM

This is a very interesting thread. Really, I am not very concerned with what early Christian church members did as much as I am concerned with the example that Jesus lived out in His life. Luke 6:9 says, “Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?” In this passage along with numerous others, Jesus walked the walk and talked the talk of the seventh-day Sabbath. that’s good enough for me.

Hi MLW3355,

It is a pleasure to welcome you to 4TG! I hope that you will enjoy fellowship and open discussion here.

mlw3355 - 03 March 2010 09:55 AM

I would never sit in judgment of another person and how or when they choose to worship as God leads them.

I’m glad to hear that you are conscious of God’s commands not to judge fellow Christians over this issue in Colossians 2 and Romans 14. We also have no problem with the day you worship on. We do, however, have a problem when someone makes a day of worship the test of a true or false believer, since the Bible teaches no such test.

mlw3355 - 03 March 2010 09:55 AM

But like Joshua said, “as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord” and follow His righteous example.

I wonder what happened to the sentence you wrote just before this. From this it is quite obvious that those of us who don’t worship on Saturday are not “serving the Lord.” I would hope that as a Christian your first priority is not which day you worship on as proof of whether you are serving God, but the fact that like all of us, you are dead in trespasses and sins and without hope except in God’s sovereign mercy in Christ Jesus. I hope, most of all, that all of us are finding our rest primarily in the finished work of Christ Jesus, as He tells us in Matthew 11:28.

Grace and Peace

Nate

mlw3355 - 03 March 2010 09:55 AM

This is a very interesting thread. Really, I am not very concerned with what early Christian church members did as much as I am concerned with the example that Jesus lived out in His life. Luke 6:9 says, “Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?” In this passage along with numerous others, Jesus walked the walk and talked the talk of the seventh-day Sabbath. that’s good enough for me. I would never sit in judgment of another person and how or when they choose to worship as God leads them. But like Joshua said, “as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord” and follow His righteous example.

Hi M, we are both beginners here.  I have been a lurker here in the past and today I saw your post and would like to comment.  I hope you will feel free to respond.  If i am wrong I certainly want to know where I am straying from the truth. 

I certainly agree that Jesus gave us some very important examples that we should take to heart.  That said, Jesus kept the Passover and all of the 613 laws of the Torah that would pertain to Him.  He wore a robe and was a carpenter,, He never married and in the last 3 years of His life devoted Himself totally to ministry, mostly to His Israelite people.  Oh yes, he never paid tithe.

Your sincere quote of what Jesus did on the Sabbath and that what He did is good enough for you is fine.  I would call your attention to all the other things Jesus did and ask if you too do all those things?  Scan through the book of Leviticus and see all the requirements the Israelites were required to do and observe.  Is it even possible, outside of Israel to do all Jesus observed?

The next thing to ponder is this.  Jesus was under Torah Law.  He was required to keep the Sabbaths.  Unless I am sadly mistaken Christians are not under Torah law which Sabbath is one of the requirements.  In Matthew 5 Jesus tells the Israelites that not one jot nor one tittle would pass from the Torah law until everything was accomplished.  If I am not mistaken Jesus fulfilled that requirement on the Cross.  Is that why in Col 2 Paul tells us that the law was nailed to the Cross?  And is that why in Gal 3 Paul tells us this: 17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later(after Abraham), does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. 19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.

I was a Sabbath observer* for over 40 years.  I have mixed feelings about all those years.  We certainly had good fellowship and made many great friends and I learned a great deal about living a Christian life.  I am not a theologian, but I do have a fair amount of knowledge about the Bible which I contribute to the church’s prodding.  After studying Paul’s writings I really questioned the validity of Sabbath observance* for the New Covenant Christian.  I am currently not affiliated with any Sabbath observing* group because of my study.  I believe it was given only to the Israelites and ended at Calvary.

l welcome your response.  bob

*Notice that I used “observe” in place of “keeping”, No one “keeps” the Sabbath as prescribed in the Old Covenant.  Jesus in Matt 5 tells us that not one jot.......would pass until, so I submit to you that Jesus example of Sabbath Keeping was strictly kosher.  He did not use his example of Sabbath keeping for those who observe it to become lax in what was required.  My peers tell me that Jesus example of keeping sets the mood for a more lax and less stringent observance.  Example, It is OK to go swimming or it is OK to eat out, etc.

Boy, this forum is dead.  You might as well bury it.  bob

i just joined
my brother is SDA and writes tracts on how to get saved then sticks in the part about how keeping the sabbath is important and a sign to God that you are one of HIS! He keeps telling me about this sunday law coming soon to a church near you thanks to the antichrist pope.  When I learned about the endtimes 30 yrs ago, we were all afraid that the anti-christ would make a law NO ONE would be allowed to worship at all or make a one world church and govt.

me, I am christian but due to health concerns, neither I nor my hubby are able to attend church at this time.
for those arguing about sat/sun I would like to share something from Corrie Ten boom who wrote the Hiding Place, about hiding the Jews in their home from Nazis then being taken to a Nazi concentration camp for being found out....

I read the book many years ago but some things remain fresh in my mind...like the time Corrie was all alone after having been arrested by the Nazis, they put a russian girl in the cell with her, for whatever reason Corrie was prejudiced against and did not like russians and did not speak russian but this girl spoke one word, “Jesus”, and the two huddled together in the comfort of only thing they had the same between them-a faith and belief in God through Christ. Not knowing their future thye did have their common faith and guess what, all prejudice, all arguments about what they believed or did not believe went out the window. I wish we could get to that point before we really have to...who knows, we may find ourselves in prison for just believing in God and in the same cell as some of the people we have had disagreements with about a jot or tittle.  Try being a christian in a muslim or communist country. 

when I did go to church, many of the church women did not know what to think of me, newly married and more in love with my horse than my husband and not wanting children, artistic and I hated wearing girl clothes or makeup!  Can you imagine that?  Now cowboy churches are springing up all over the place!

Hi esbee, I hope you are not suggesting that we stop revealing heresy.  I happen to be a former Adventist.  When I found that the Adventist Church was teaching falsehood I had to leave because I had taken a vow to the 27 fundamentals and I now I didn’t believe all of them.  I also feel it is necessary to explain to those who are in the church as well as those proposing to join the real Gospel of our Savior Jesus.

I still fellowship with the SDAs that are willing, but many practice, unwittingly, shunning.  Most are not grounded well enough to carry on a debate on doctrine so they either shun or tell formers that they are perfectly satisfied and would rather not discuss it.  If they were so sure that what they believe is truth it would seem they would be interested in trying to bring us formers back into the fold.

Sorry you cannot attend church.  It is a great blessing to fellowship with Christians.  Are you able to get out and go other places?

Hi All

It’s been a long time since I posted here but wanted to share an article I found last year.  I’ll try to put up a link below, and will also give info so that if the link doesn’t work, you can find it with a word search.

The article is entitled “What is the Christian’s Rule of life, Christ or the Law?” written by T. B. Baines.

http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/baines/What is a Christian’s Rule of Life, Christ or the Law.html

Since the link doesn’t seem to be active (even though I can find it by word search), I’ll give a short summary.

Many Seventh-day Adventists and Christians would agree that we are not justified by keeping the law.  But the Holy Spirit, speaking through Paul, tells us that if we even use the law for our guide (for sanctification) after we are justified, it is a return to the flesh, and to the curse.

The article was written more than a century ago, during a time when the SDA church was also discussing these topics.

Bob