Hey ... You guys make some good points. For some who think she is infallible ... it would be best to toss her entirely. But for the rest of us .... we find her to be a very good author. For me ... I treat her no differently than I treat other authors for example Philip Yancey. I am blessed by reading the thoughts and commentary on scripture that he provides. But, do I need him? No I could just stick with scripture. But, I am lazy. Sometimes the thoughts of others are a blessing.
No, you can’t compare EGW with Yancey or any other contemporary author. Supposedly, Ellen received scores of visions directly from God, or sometimes had an angel guide. Can the same be said of Yancey and other Christian authors? Will you acknowledge that difference?
No. I see no difference. She is a continuing authority .... just as Philip Yancey is for me. Like I said ... I compare ALL of her writings to scripture. Those that do not pass the test of scripture .... I throw out. So, if there is something that would suggest that it is more than what Philip Yancey would be .... I just toss it if after comparing it to scripture I find it incompatible.
The point is ... Just because she “claims’ she had a ‘vision” from God ... does not mean that “I” have to believe it. I compare it to scripture to see if it passes the test. I don’t accept her blindly. I would subject Yancey to the same test. It is just that Yancey has not been placed on the list of approved “authorities” with our church. But the list is not an exhaustive list either. I consider Yancey to be an “authority” along with many others. Ellen White included.
Added Later .... Personally ... I believe that Philip Yancey has had some visions from heaven. But again .... I personally have to be the judge of that. You may differ in your belief and that is fine.
ON a side note ..... I watched the Pope be greeted by President Bush. As they walked along .... the Pope was kissed on the hand by those in line. IT was disgusting. In SDA circles there is concern that the Pope may be pressing for a National Day of Rest. This would preceed a National Sunday Law. As an SDA ... I am not concerned with a National Sunday Law. I don’t mind having two days of rest. I would just rest on both Saturday and Sunday. No biggie. The more rest the better. Some of my SDA friends go to church on both Saturday AND Sunday. Cool.
Hey ... You guys make some good points. For some who think she is infallible ... it would be best to toss her entirely. But for the rest of us .... we find her to be a very good author. For me ... I treat her no differently than I treat other authors for example Philip Yancey. I am blessed by reading the thoughts and commentary on scripture that he provides. But, do I need him? No I could just stick with scripture. But, I am lazy. Sometimes the thoughts of others are a blessing.
No, you can’t compare EGW with Yancey or any other contemporary author. Supposedly, Ellen received scores of visions directly from God, or sometimes had an angel guide. Can the same be said of Yancey and other Christian authors? Will you acknowledge that difference?
No. I see no difference. She is a continuing authority .... just as Philip Yancey is for me. Like I said ... I compare ALL of her writings to scripture. Those that do not pass the test of scripture .... I throw out. So, if there is something that would suggest that it is more than what Philip Yancey would be .... I just toss it if after comparing it to scripture I find it incompatible.
The point is ... Just because she “claims’ she had a ‘vision” from God ... does not mean that “I” have to believe it. I compare it to scripture to see if it passes the test. I don’t accept her blindly. I would subject Yancey to the same test. It is just that Yancey has not been placed on the list of approved “authorities” with our church. But the list is not an exhaustive list either. I consider Yancey to be an “authority” along with many others. Ellen White included.
...
That’s really quite amazing, GH. So then what does that tell you about the alleged visions from God that you disagree with? Are you saying that Ellen was lying about them and that they were mere fabrications? Were they simply figments of an overactive imagination? Are you saying the source was not of God but of someone else? And aside from Ellen and the Bible, how many “authorities” or “sources of truth” does the Adventist church possess?
Interestingly, the infallible mouthpiece for Catholicism is their pontiff while sitting on his unholy throne (ex cathedra). However, our Adventist friends have a much higher claim in having an infallible interpreter of Scripture, who is their ”continuing and authoritativeSOURCE of truth,” with messages supposedly received directly from the throne of God. By the way, the above quote was formulated, voted, and approved by the GC in Session in Dallas, Texas (1980). In Adventism, nothing can get more official than that.
Hey ... You guys make some good points. For some who think she is infallible ... it would be best to toss her entirely. But for the rest of us .... we find her to be a very good author. For me ... I treat her no differently than I treat other authors for example Philip Yancey. I am blessed by reading the thoughts and commentary on scripture that he provides. But, do I need him? No I could just stick with scripture. But, I am lazy. Sometimes the thoughts of others are a blessing.
No, you can’t compare EGW with Yancey or any other contemporary author. Supposedly, Ellen received scores of visions directly from God, or sometimes had an angel guide. Can the same be said of Yancey and other Christian authors? Will you acknowledge that difference?
Aaron. Perhaps you have missed this ... But I have stated that I don’t believe in every word she ever spoke. So ... if she ‘supposedly said she received visions directly from God’ ... then I am at liberty to throw those words out. I don’t have to believe that and I don’t have to believe her visions that she said were from God.
Bottom line ... she is NOT infallible. I have to judge her just like I judge Yancey’s words. According to the Bible. ANd this I do with BOTH EGW and Philip Yancey.
Interestingly, the infallible mouthpiece for Catholicism is their pontiff while sitting on his unholy throne (ex cathedra). However, our Adventist friends have a much higher claim in having an infallible interpreter of Scripture, who is their ”continuing and authoritativeSOURCE of truth,” with messages supposedly received directly from the throne of God. By the way, the above quote was formulated, voted, and approved by the GC in Session in Dallas, Texas (1980). In Adventism, nothing can get more official than that.
Dennis Fischer
Yes. Dennis. I completely agree with the voted statement.
She is ONE continuing source of truth ... just as Philip Yancey is.
If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself. 1 Timothy 6:3-5
Glorify Him,
I have been reading this post for the past week. I just want to ask a question. How many errors/untruths/failed visions/things you do not agree with, do you have to see before you will say EGW is a false prophet?
Diana
Interestingly, the infallible mouthpiece for Catholicism is their pontiff while sitting on his unholy throne (ex cathedra). However, our Adventist friends have a much higher claim in having an infallible interpreter of Scripture, who is their ”continuing and authoritativeSOURCE of truth,” with messages supposedly received directly from the throne of God. By the way, the above quote was formulated, voted, and approved by the GC in Session in Dallas, Texas (1980). In Adventism, nothing can get more official than that.
Dennis Fischer
Yes. Dennis. I completely agree with the voted statement.
She is ONE continuing source of truth ... just as Philip Yancey is.
Neither are infallible.
How many authors did the GC in session claim were continuing and authoritative sources of truth? By your own standard, please show us in the 28 fundies where the church states other authors may also be continuing and authoritative sources of truth.
Glorify Him,
I have been reading this post for the past week. I just want to ask a question. How many errors/untruths/failed visions/things you do not agree with, do you have to see before you will say EGW is a false prophet?
Diana
Thanks Flyinglady. Good Question. I think that if I find one message/vision that I feel is from God ... then I have to believe that she was a true prophet that was used of God for THAT message. God used a donkey as a prophet. He can use sinful humans to speak His message.
The problem with Ellen White is not Ellen White. The problem is the extremists and ex- SDAs that want to hold her up to an infallible standard. Take what is good and throw out the rest. Even if there is only one good message and you have to throw out the rest. Don’t throw out the baby with the bath water. With Ellen White what we have done is to create a HUGE standard ... like never before. Has anyone in history been held to a standard such that EVERY word ever spoken has to be infallible? Un-heard of. But yet this is what we have done to Ellen White. And my church is just as guilty as the Ex’s.
She has a huge amount of material out there. She is one of the most prolific writers in US history. And we expect her to be infallible with ALL of that ?? I think that is a huge standard that NO writer or prophet has ever been held to. And it is too much to expect.
As she tells us to do. Compare her words to scripture and throw out those that do not correspond to the clear word of scripture. Good guide for all of our readings of Christian authors. EGW is no different.
many authors did the GC in session claim were continuing and authoritative sources of truth? By your own standard, please show us in the 28 fundies where the church states other authors may also be continuing and authoritative sources of truth
Sometimes I actually wonder if you read my responses or just repeatedly post the same questions. It gets boring to go round and round repeating the same questions and answers. Oh Well ...
Ellen White has a special place in our church. You might call it First Place in the writers contest. She has been acknowledged as a good writer of authority in our church. She has written far more than all the current SDA authors combined ... Plus Philip Yancey. That places her in a unique place. Just on pure volume.
Finally .... the unique listing of her qualities and abilities as a continuing source of truth in our church is by no means meant to be an exhaustive list. IT does not say that she is the only one. She just received a first place ribbon. But if you would like to apply ... maybe you could move ahead of her and get first place. The contest is not over. Come on .... I am bored. I am trying to find a unique way to state what I’ve stated over and over. The proof should be required by you to show me where it is stated that SHE alone is the ONLY “continuing source of truth”
The church has by no means excluded Philip Yancey as a continuing source of truth. HE puts the Gospel in a clear and truthful manner . I see no need to exclude him from the same statement as being a continuing SOURCE of truth. I am blessed by reading Philip Yancey. I see no need to throw him out just because I disagree with some of his beliefs.
How many authors did the GC in session claim were continuing and authoritative sources of truth? By your own standard, please show us in the 28 fundies where the church states other authors may also be continuing and authoritative sources of truth.
Aaron .... With this kind of thinking .... I guess we might as well just throw out the Bible and just believe in Ellen White. Come on ...
You show ME where it says that she is the ONLY “continuing source of truth”.
Just ridiculous.
As for me ... I will read the Bible along with Philip Yancey.
The point of Aaron’s question, GH, is to understand what is taking place when Ellen White says “I was shown...” and her words are not supported by Scripture. You say it is simple, just throw out what doesn’t square with Scripture and keep the rest. Fine. But this still doesn’t address the central questions. Was Ellen White guilty of putting words in God’s mouth by claiming to receive visions from Him that aren’t corroborated by Scripture? Alternative, was she receiving these visions from a source other than God? GH, these are questions I don’t think you’ve answered yet.
Glorify Him,
When I find a person, and EGW is the only one I know of, who claims to be inspired by God and then I read where she contradicts the Bible, claims to be inspired by God and other things, I no longer believe her to be of God.
God only used Balaam’s donkey once, not over and over.
Because of the claims that EGW makes, herself, then I hold her to the standards the Bible sets in Deut 18:22; Jer. 28:9; Jer 23:32; Jer 23:30; Isa 8:20; Matt 7:15,16; I Cor 14:3; I Cor 14:37. Those are the verses the Bible tells us to use to determine if a prophet is false or not. For me EGW does not pass the tests.
I will admit EGW has written some beautiful stuff. My question now is, was it taken from someone else and she claims God showed/told her. She speaks, as my ancestors say, with a forked tongue.
God can use us humans, even those who do not believe in Him(like Darius), any way He chooses, but that does not make us a messenger as claimed by EGW. God has used me in many instances to further His word, but I make no claim to fame and tell everyone God gave me a special message for everyone. I am humbled that He chose to use this sinner.
Just my opinions.
Diana
Glorify Him,
When I find a person, and EGW is the only one I know of, who claims to be inspired by God and then I read where she contradicts the Bible, claims to be inspired by God and other things, I no longer believe her to be of God.
God only used Balaam’s donkey once, not over and over.
Because of the claims that EGW makes, herself, then I hold her to the standards the Bible sets in Deut 18:22; Jer. 28:9; Jer 23:32; Jer 23:30; Isa 8:20; Matt 7:15,16; I Cor 14:3; I Cor 14:37. Those are the verses the Bible tells us to use to determine if a prophet is false or not. For me EGW does not pass the tests.
I will admit EGW has written some beautiful stuff. My question now is, was it taken from someone else and she claims God showed/told her. She speaks, as my ancestors say, with a forked tongue.
God can use us humans, even those who do not believe in Him(like Darius), any way He chooses, but that does not make us a messenger as claimed by EGW. God has used me in many instances to further His word, but I make no claim to fame and tell everyone God gave me a special message for everyone. I am humbled that He chose to use this sinner.
Just my opinions.
Diana
Thank you Diana ... Good post and I find much to understand and even agree with.
I think that Ellen might have had just one message. I am just not sure. Haven’t taken the time to figure it out. But even if God intended one or more than one message ... that would still mean she was a messenger ... as she stated she was. I consider Philip Yancey to be a messenger as many other authors. I would hope that many of us are messengers.
Did EGW take words from other authors? I am most certain she did. And I find no fault in that. What is your concern? Even if she claimed that it was from God ... the only problem I see is that she didn’t give credit to the author which I guess at that time was not regularly done. And you have had instances where you furthered His word. Praise God. Apparently God did not want you to take credit. But he does use sinners ... with or without credit. I think EGW for the most part did try not to take credit but she was under much pressure to do so.
But to state ....
I no longer believe her to be of God
. Is a judgment that we as Christians are not to make regarding another Christian. As you have said ... some of her words are beautiful and Of God. But would not some of your words even not be of GOd to some? Should we on the basis of this claim that YOU are not of God? I think not. I have no doubt that some of her WORDS are not of GOd. But I would not say that SHE is not of God.
WE are not to look to people ... we are to look to God and what brings us to God. If she does not bring you to God .... say in contrast to someone like Philip Yancey ... then don’t read her books. Stick with the Bible and Philip Yancey.
You could read the things that I write. I claim that I am inspired of God. Just as I believe that you also are inspired of God. That is the calling to Christians. I find nothing upsetting to be inspired of God. All Christians are to some degree.
I figure that if GOd can use a donkey ... he can for sure use me.
But would not some of your words even not be of GOd to some? Should we on the basis of this claim that YOU are not of God? I think not. I have no doubt that some of her WORDS are not of GOd. But I would not say that SHE is not of God.
GH, Diana has not claimed to receive special revelation from God. You are comparing apples and oranges. Ellen White claimed a specific prophetic gift and presented hundreds of her “visions” as evidence. The Adventist church sustains her claims to this day by uniquely identifying her (not Philip Yancey or any other author) as a source of truth. If Ellen White claimed to receive direct revelation from God and these revelations contradict Scripture, we can’t excuse her easily. God is powerful enough to communicate clearly in Scripture and through His prophets. If someone claims to be His prophet (or messenger) and contradicts Scripture, they are not speaking for Him.
This brings me back to my previous questions, which perhaps you overlooked.
The point of Aaron’s question, GH, is to understand what is taking place when Ellen White says “I was shown...” and her words are not supported by Scripture. You say it is simple, just throw out what doesn’t square with Scripture and keep the rest. Fine. But this still doesn’t address the central questions. Was Ellen White guilty of putting words in God’s mouth by claiming to receive visions from Him that aren’t corroborated by Scripture? Alternative, was she receiving these visions from a source other than God? GH, these are questions I don’t think you’ve answered yet.
GH, the way you’ve described Ellen White’s “gift”, there are only a few options. Ellen White is either guilty of putting words into God’s mouth or she was directed by someone other than God when she said “I was shown...” and proceeded to contradict Scripture. There’s no middle ground here, and she herself said there was no middle ground when dealing with her own writings.
“There is no halfway work in the matter. The Testimonies are of the Spirit of God, or of the devil.” Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 671. (1889)
