Posted anonymously by: Frank

Stan,
If you are supporting the “once saved, always saved” idea, then I have a question. First though let me say that I agree with the scriptures you quoted to support the above stated idea. But I don’t see them as supporting that idea. I see them as assurance or a promise that as long as I follow the will of God and the leading of the Holy Spirit, as long as I confess and repent from my sins, my salvation is assured. I can still change my mind, we always have free choice, choice is a gift from God.
Now here is my question concerning the “once saved, always saved” idea. Lucifer was created being, who eventually chose to turn his back on his creator. He was created perfect (saved), so how was he “able” to fall or become “lost”?
We are born into sin as a result of our first parents, who were also created perfect and sinless (therefore “saved"), so if once we choose to be saved, we give up our free will and can no longer change our minds? And if we are then “saved” and lose our free will, why then do we continue to sin?

Hello Frank,

I will not delve in biblical proofs for my following answer to your inquiry. I’m offering just an overview of the issue, and I hope this will clarify, even in an indirect way your concerns.

A true believer will continually confess his sin, will repent, will follow the will of God and will be willing to be led y the Holy Spirit. But these are results of God preserving his believers in a state of grace, not something believers do to make efficacious the grace of God given to them. These are the effects of the already working grace of God in them. God and God alone will take the glory of the salvation of the sinners, and their perseverance in faith is simply the result of His sovereign grace.

Regarding the freedom of choice, some clarifications are required. Freedom is the liberty to choose according to the internal desires and wishes. In this sense we can speak about the freedom of the will. But in another sense, our will is not free, because our desires and wishes are always against God. The fall of Adam affected a change in our nature. We died spiritually and people are spiritually dead, they simply don’t want, don’t desire to follow God. They love to sin, because their nature is bent toward sin. In a similar way a carnivorous animal will refuse a vegetarian diet, sinners refuse to repent and abandon their sin. The bent is internal, not external.

God does not force anyone to believe, this is often a misunderstanding. He works internally, bringing the dead spiritual soul to life, changing the desires and liberating the will. God does not save anyone against their desires, against their will. He first changes the will. And the guarantee of our salvation is the fact that God, who started to work in us, will continue to do this until the end. Without His grace and intervention, nobody is able to remain faithful to Him

Jesus talked about saving people who are lost, and described people being slaves to sin. Slavery is the opposite of freedom, and this is precisely the situation regarding human will.

Gabriel

Hi Frank,

Welcome to 4TG.  I hope you’ll continue to share your questions and observations with us.

I want to point out one small logical problem with the scenario you’ve proposed about Adam and Satan.  Neither Adam nor Satan were born into sin, so it is not accurate to describe their pre-fall condition as “saved”.  Therefore, it is inconsistent to compare Adam and Satan’s pre-fall condition with that of the justified (saved) sinner.

Curiously, we don’t find examples in Scripture of justified sinners removing themselves from God’s grace.  Along these lines, the apostle Paul said, “He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” (Philippians 1:6 ESV) This and a host of other texts from Scripture imply that God is able to raise a spiritually dead person to life and keep him raised until the day of Jesus Christ.  God’s grace is His gift to give, and once given, He does not take back the gift.  He gives the gift with full knowledge about our condition and nothing we have done prior to receiving the gift “qualifies” us for it.  Likewise, nothing we do after receiving the gift “disqualifies” us from it, since God knows our past, present and future completely.  Stated another way, we are saved in the midst of our sin and in the full light of God’s knowledge of our past, present and future sins.

Jesus died for sinners, not for the self-righteous (Romans 5:6-11).  If the gift of eternal life is contingent upon future human performance, then “grace is no longer grace” (Romans 11:6).

As Gabriel said, God creates a new will in us when He saves us.  He replaces our rebellion with a desire to live in a manner worthy of our calling (Ephesians 4:1-3).  A man who knows how lost he is without Christ will not decide to remove himself from Christ’s firm grip, because he does not have the strength or the will to do this.

“We have this treasure in jars of clay"–Jesus Christ–that we cling to as our only hope in this world.  Just as the body hungers for oxygen, food and water, the sinner who has been saved by God’s grace hungers for continued fellowship with Him.

Greg

Hi Frank and a warm welcome to 4TG.

Gabriel and Greg answered for me very well.

I might also point to a text in Corinthians where Paul says that as regenerate persons. we are a new creation in Christ, or a new creature. Would not mean that our free wills are also new creations, and the will will always want to do God’s will, even though we still fight against the old fleshly nature? But our minds or spirits have been renewed, and if that is the case, a person truly born into God’s family will not want to become unborn. God promises to finish the work.

Stan

Posted anonymously by: Frank

All,
Without choice. we are no more than robots. Free will or choice is a gift from God. Just as salvation is a gift from God. These 2 gifts are tied together beyond seperation. We have to choose salvation, choose to accept the the gift in order to be saved. If you remove the gift of choice, salvation is no longer a gift. It seems you are confusing assurance with insurance. Yes we can be assured of salvation if we continue to choose to accept it. The problem with the “once saved always saved” idea is that as sinful beings, we are looking for the easy way out of our sinful condition. So many are decieved into believing this idea, thinking all they have to do is say they accept Jesus as their savior and their part is done. They continue living as they always have with no visable evidence that Jesus has changed their life. And they think they are saved. If that was all there is to recieving slavation, all would be saved. But Jesus didn’t die on the cross to save us TO sin, He died to save us FROM sin. Salvation is a gift we have to accept daily, continuelly in order to be saved. We have the assurance that if we continue to surrender our will to His will, He will finish the work He has begun. We still have to do our part. Can we earn Salvation? No. Do we deserve Salvation? No. But we do have to accept it. Continueously. Can we change our minds about it? Yes. We never lose the gift of choice.
I fail to see the difference between “Saved” and “Sinless” in reguards to Adam and satan. We are either saved or lost. It is our choice. Always. Without choice. we are no more the robots. We must choose. Always.

God Bless us All

Frank,

After the fall we are all slaves to sin.

“Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.” John 8:34

Jesus came precisely to free us from sin. “The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.” John 8:35,36

Slavery to sin is different to being a robot. It is a straw man argument to talk about robots, please read carefully what we previously stated in our posts.

I agree with your following statement

[quote author="Frank"]So many are decieved into believing this idea, thinking all they have to do is say they accept Jesus as their savior and their part is done. They continue living as they always have with no visable evidence that Jesus has changed their life. And they think they are saved. If that was all there is to recieving slavation, all would be saved. But Jesus didn’t die on the cross to save us TO sin, He died to save us FROM sin.

What you described is a false assurance of salvation, with which you agree. It is a perversion of the true doctrine of assurance of salvation. You may check other posts on this site and you will see that we affirmed, even in the previous posts on this thread, that a true believer will live a holy life, and this is especially because Jesus frees him from the slavery of sin. He still has the flesh to battle with, he still fails and even in his bests moments is far from perfect, but he is a new person, he lives a new live, for God.

I agree also that true believers will persevere in faith, and the assurance of salvation is linked with their perseverance. What is very important is on whom we trust for our perseverance: in ourselves or in God, in our wills or God’s will. It depends on whom we attribute our faith, which works through love (Galatians 5:6). Even our faith is not our contribution to salvation, our gift to God, but God’s gift to us Ephesians 2:8. Salvation is entirely from the Lord, and God takes all the credit and glory for our salvation Soli Deo Gloria.

The Reformation had 5 solas, and sola gratia, grace alone was understood by the reformers as meaning that all we have is by the grace of God, even our faith is a gift, and a result of grace. Our good works, and our faith is the result of salvation, not the cause of it.

Frank, I’m interested to hear your view regarding original sin and how Adam’s sin affected and corrupted the human race, because I’m not sure how you look at the change effected in man by sin.

Gabriel

Posted anonymously by: Frank

GABRIEL,
Original sin. I’m not sure what you are looking for. However if an explanation could be given for sin, it wouldn’t be sin. All we have to do is look around us and we can see the results of sin. What this world has become as a result of sin is so far from what God intended, we can no longer imagine what our lives and this world should have been. Satan knows what Gods original plan for man was and is determined to keep as many of us as possible from it. Sin origniated with Lucifer who bacame satan as a result of his desire to be elevated above God. Lucifer was given every opportunity to repent before he fell from Heaven. He continued to CHOOSE to disobey his Creator. Sin for him was CHOOSING to disobey God.
Sin is the transgresion of the law. If there were no law, there would be no sin. If the law was done away with, there would be no sin. The law of God (The Ten Commandments) reveal the character of God. The character of God is unchangable, God is unchangable, therefore the Law is unchangable. A perfect God would have no reason to change his Laws. If the God we serve were to change his mind even about one thing, none of His promises could be counted on and we would have no assurance of anything. Thinking of Ninava? God didn’t change his mind, the destruction was conditional. The Ninavites repented and so were spared. They met the conditions set forth in the judgement, repent or be destroyed. They CHOSE repentence. Their deliverance (salvation) required action on their part. They had to show God by their actions, that their repentance was genuine.

Sorry if this isn’t what you were looking for. I hope you inderstand were I’m comming from. I believe that God is consistant, unchanging, unwavering and never changes his mind. He doesn’t tell us to do one thing in the old testament and something else in the new. Jesus even quoted from the old testament when tempted by satan, from the book of Duet., three times even.

One more thing on “original sin”. Original sin for man was doubting the word of God. When satan tempted Eve, he said “hath God said?” forever (for some) casting doubt on the Word of God. Jesus said ”if you love Me, keep My commandments”. I try my best to keep his commandments. ALL of them.

God Bless us all.

Hi Frank,

There is a big difference between the false doctrine of what popular evangelicalism calls “Once Saved Always Saved”, or (OSAS), and the Reformed doctrine of “The Perseverance of the Saints”. In OSAS, many believe that all you have to do is go forward at an evangelicstic meeting, and pray the “sinners prayer”, and you are forever saved, even if there is never any fruit of repentance.

In the Reformation view of Luther and Calvin, and Jesus and the apostles, a person becomes a Christian and truly saved, when, by the miracle of regeneration and the new birth, which God performs in us, (John 1:13) (John 3:1-17) when we are truly born again. We become new creatures or creations, and our wills are changed, so that our free will wills to follow Christ. It is a genuine miracle. How many of us choose to be physically born? And is physical birth a miracle? Then, how can we who are dead in tresspasses and sins (Ephesians 2)choose to be born spiritually? And the new birth is even a greater miracle. If we are born of God, and not of our own human wills (John 1:13), then this new birth will result in eternal salvation, because God promises to keep us in John 10:27-30. Because God has promised to keep us safely, then I believe it. It doesn’t matter what you read in Ellen White. She was just borrowing from the other Pelagian authors of her day including Charles Finney, and some of John Wesley’s writings.

As Christians, God has adopted us as His sons and daughters.

A child who is adopted into an earthly family does not choose his own father. So, God chose us to be adopted into His family before time began, and because He chose us to be in His family, this means He intended to make this relationship permanent.

Soli Deo Gloria (To God Alone be the Glory)

Stan

And speaking of the doctrine of Adoption, here is a link I just ran across on the http://www.monergism.com site, and this is a powerful article on what it means to be adopted into God’s family:

http://covenantofgracechurch.org/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=11

This article explains why the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints is tied so closely to Justification by Faith Alone and our Adoption as sons, which occurs simultaneously.

Stan

Posted anonymously by: John Douglas

Stan wrote:
“In the Reformation view of Luther and Calvin, and Jesus and the apostles, a person becomes a Christian and truly saved, when, by the miracle of regeneration and the new birth, which God performs in us, (John 1:13) (John 3:1-17) when we are truly born again. We become new creatures or creations, and our wills are changed, so that our free will wills to follow Christ. It is a genuine miracle.”

It is a genuine miracle! An act of Divinity.

We either accept that the power of the Creator, through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, can and will transform and direct the life of the believer or, He can’t or won’t. If the former, all that is left for the believer to ‘do’ is to praise God for His mercy and grace. If the latter, endless discussions/debates with no conclusion and no hope.

JONVIL

Wow, it has taken some time, but I have read through this “blog” and I can’t help but see on huge problem!  As an investigative lawyer, I have found that many time when searching for the truth we have a hard time taking our eyes off what we have found and opening the mind by going back to the very foundation of the evidence presented.

What I mean is this:  What IF your so called foundation for your belief (spiritual opinions) has been based upon humans, dead or alive, that have NOT been eyewitnesses to Jesus’ one year ministry here on this earth?  In court, that would mean your beliefs are based upon hearsay evidence, and therefore suspect and not allowed to be presented before a jury/judge to prove or disprove the subject of the issue.

many of you ‘former Adventists’ don’t believe in the ‘gospel’ of Ellen White.  Why?  Because we have found many lies in them---right?  Same for Joseph Smith and all of the other so called prophets we see today--right?

Well, why in the world then don’t you use the SAME reasoning to test the so called writers of the New Testament?  Get on http://www.youtube.com and search for ‘false apostles’.  Study to find out who, what, why and how the books of the New Testament made it there.  Read the new book out by Dennis Neufeld and Rick Sterling (SDA Sabbath School teacher for 15 years) called “THE SPIRIT OF THE CHURCH”.  It will be out Sept. 4, 2007, by Tate publishing. 

What I see from part one of ‘An Appeal to our Adventist Friends’ are opinions and statements made from Paul.  Paul, (a none Hebrew hame), who was Saul, was a totally EVIL man, possessed by demons and intent on murdering people.  He was ripe for the picking by the Master of Deception.

NO WHERE can you find that God FORCED people to become His servant!  Yes, Paul was duped, just like our Adventist Friends who believe in EGW.  Look at 2nd Cor. 12:7 and you will see that Paul even admitted he had been given a messinger from Satan (demon) to keep him humble.  You will also see that Paul demanded that this same god (not God) take this demon away---3 times!  This god of Paul’s said not to worry, because ‘grace is sufficent’.  WHAT?  Jesus NEVER even talked about ‘grace’.  In fact, you will NOT see grace in the Ten Virgin story.  Nor will you find it in Revelation. 

So my friends, please check this out for yourself.  Yes, the Bible contains the Word of God, but it by itself is NOT the Word of God.

Richard J. Humpal, JD

Mr. Humpal, thanks for your observations.

It seems you take a low view of the inspiration of Scripture.  If I am reading you correctly, unless Jesus said it, you won’t believe it.  By this hermeneutic, much of Old Testament is rendered meaningless, since Jesus didn’t speak any of those words and they were written hundreds of years before his incarnation.

You also said something about only accepting eyewitness testimony, and of course I agree with you on this.  Paul’s writings would be worthless if he was merely dreaming up fantasies based on his conversion from Judaism.

But listen to how Paul describes his own experience:

“For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel. For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.” (Galatians 1:11-12 ESV)

If this doesn’t place him in the category of eyewitness, I guess we should take Peter’s word, since he most certainly was an eyewitness to the lives of both Jesus and Paul.  Remember, Paul compared the gospel he’d been taught by Jesus with Peter’s version, and Peter could see the truth in it (Galatians 1:18, Galatians 2:7-9).

Maybe Paul made the whole thing up.  Maybe he was a pathologic liar and he simply gave himself Peter’s approval without Peter’s knowledge.  But this is inconsistent with Peter’s own testimony.

“And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.” (2 Peter 3:15-16 ESV) (emphasis mine)

Mr. Humpal, by your logic, Peter (an eyewitness to the lives of both Jesus and Paul) testified that Paul’s writings were in the same category as Old Testament Scripture.  Perhaps both Paul and Peter were lying, but this is a more far-fetched conclusion than believing that both were telling the truth, since their writings are consistent with each other.  I’m sure you came across Occam’s Razor during your legal training, and it most certainly applies here.  “All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one.”

Mr. Humpel, thanks again for your observations, and may we submit ourselves to God’s Word–all of it–which is indeed profitable for “teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17 ESV)

Greg

Richard J. Humpal JD wrote:

Well, why in the world then don’t you use the SAME reasoning to test the so called writers of the New Testament? Get on http://www.youtube.com and search for ‘false apostles’. Study to find out who, what, why and how the books of the New Testament made it there. Read the new book out by Dennis Neufeld and Rick Sterling (SDA Sabbath School teacher for 15 years) called “THE SPIRIT OF THE CHURCH”. It will be out Sept. 4, 2007, by Tate publishing.

What I see from part one of ‘An Appeal to our Adventist Friends’ are opinions and statements made from Paul. Paul, (a none Hebrew hame), who was Saul, was a totally EVIL man, possessed by demons and intent on murdering people. He was ripe for the picking by the Master of Deception.

NO WHERE can you find that God FORCED people to become His servant! Yes, Paul was duped, just like our Adventist Friends who believe in EGW. Look at 2nd Cor. 12:7 and you will see that Paul even admitted he had been given a messinger from Satan (demon) to keep him humble. You will also see that Paul demanded that this same god (not God) take this demon away---3 times! This god of Paul’s said not to worry, because ‘grace is sufficent’. WHAT? Jesus NEVER even talked about ‘grace’. In fact, you will NOT see grace in the Ten Virgin story. Nor will you find it in Revelation.
-----------------------------------------------------

Richard,

With all due respect for your law degree, I can’t possibly see the rationale of what you are saying.

For you to come on here and say that the apostle Paul was an EVIL MAN is quite a statement. I am very sorry that you say this. Have you studied the apostle Paul’s work in detail?

It looks like you are presenting a variation of a common theme, and that is when many SDAs have seen how uninspired Ellen White’s work is, then somehow great Bible writers like the apostle Paul are just as suspect.

All I can say is every time I read Paul’s great epistles to the Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians, I rejoice further in the great themes of sovereign grace. I rejoice even more in my salvation.

How can you say that Jesus never preached about grace?

Have you ever read the gospel of John? I see nothing but the doctrine of sovereign grace preached by Jesus, especially in John 1,3,4,5,6,and 10.

I don’t know about a court of law, but when I read John and Paul, the Holy Spirit gives the greatest Testimony that I can possibly have, that indeed I have been saved by grace alone thru faith alone for the sake of Christ alone, and my spirit testifies with the Holy Spirit so I cry out ‘Abba Father.’

I only pray Richard that you will study the evidences presented on this site, as well as the evidences from the entire Bible that God has spoken His Word through all 66 books.

Stan

Welcome Richard to 4TG.

My you do know how to make an opening statement. I guess each of us gets to evaluate the evidence as presented to us, and study to determine what we believe to be truth or falsehood. Like Greg has said, most of the Bible was not written by folks that were eyewitnesses to Christ’s life.

Like most things in life, we tend to base our beliefs and decisions on evaluating a proponderence of the evidence.

In my journey I have looked at the New Testament as a guide on how to live the Christian life. The Old Testament gives a good historical summation of how God had led up until that point. Again, believing that it presents the record God would have for us.

Belief in any part of Scripture requires a certain amount of faith. This includes faith in God in general, and also in that the Scriptures as we know them are an accurate manifestation of the message He wants us, as His children to know. Along with belief comes a certain latitude for variance of understanding. The Scripture through the Holy Spirit convicts people differently and on different things.

You have said on another website that “The only way to really know which spirit it is that you have chosen to inspire, is by comparing the truth that this spirit leads you to, with the teachings of Jesus Christ given to us by actual eyewitnesses when he was here on the Earth.

It appears the only eyewitnesses to Jesus’s testimony in the New Testament were Matthew, John, and Peter. Perhaps this is the reason Luke, Mark, James and Paul are so hard to understand”

My friend, I am wondering what part of Paul you have difficulty understanding? To me the Epistles of Paul are the most clear and lucid descriptions we have of what Christ was wanting His followers to do.

Again, of course this discussion only is useful if we have a common belief in the legitimacy of the Scriptural record. To argue anything without that commonality would be no doubt fruitless, and a waste of time. I, for one, am not qualified to make those judgments. I am but a mere Investigative Podiatrist.

Again, welcome to the forum, and may you gain the blessing of fellowship through conversation as we share the Good News with each other, and as we continue to gain understanding.

Randy

I am a Seventh-day Adventist, and I have noticed several errors that are repeatedly made by those who evaluate, criticize, or condemn the SDA church.  First of all, while it is regrettable that legalism existed, or exists, such has never been the official teachings of the church, and that includes EGW.  Her focus was on a living faith that bore fruits in the life, not works that merit justification.  Secondly, the teaching that the records remain in the heavenly sanctuary until the time of the cleansing of the sanctuary does nothing to eliminate the gospel or the peace we have in Justification.  The records are covered by the blood of Christ!  The sins are forgiven and forgotten, and covered.  God looks at us as though we have never sinned, a statement made in the book Steps to Christ, and thus believed by EGW.  Third, the massive overgeneralizations made by people are not accurate and not in a Christian spirit.  Fourth, the majority of people I have seen who have left Adventism never understood fully the Adventist message, and the websites that are now dealing with Adventism, including the video that was made, are replete with quotes out of context, historically and contextually, and are doing exactly what EGW predicted, putting everything in the worst possible light.  The more I have read the materials, and then studied for myself, the more I became settled into the Gospel and the truths of the Seventh-day Adventist Message.  For example, we do not teach that Satan is our savior, we do not teach that anyone has the Mark of the Beast yet, we do not teach that character or works “decide” salvation, but are only revelatory of the condition of the heart and one’s faith.  God bless you all, in Christ, who loves us all, and died for all ofus.