A Challenge to Former Adventists
Posted: 29 December 2006 01:05 AM   [ Ignore ]  
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Over at Re-Inventing the Adventist Wheel, Marcel Schwantes has posted an open letter to former Adventists.  He makes some interesting observations about former Adventists based on a perusal of various websites listed in his post.  His major conclusion is that the rhetoric on many former Adventist websites has betrayed the stated purpose of those sites, namely, to reach out to current Adventists with the good news of the grace of Jesus.  While there are details of Marcel’s post I disagree with, he makes some valid points.  Outlined below is my response to this thought-provoking blog entry, including a discussion of where I believe Marcel has missed the mark.

One of Marcel’s major contentions is that former Adventists are guilty of the same “groupthink” they accuse Adventists of.  He says, “Basically that the opinion expressed by a dominant small group becomes the subscribed theme of the whole group and a means to a perpetual end. Sometimes, if one if not careful, the result can be fingers pointing to heresy that is blown out of proportion, out-of-context conclusions, or black and white blanket statements alluding to Adventism being a cultic denomination deceiving 12 million members worldwide.”

No doubt there is some level of groupthink ocurring in both camps, after all, when one subscribes to a belief system, groupthink tends to emerge.  What’s unfortunate here is that the purposes of the group tend to overshadow the center of that group’s beliefs, namely Jesus Christ.  When the purpose of Adventism is to make “good” Adventists who worship on the correct day, eat the “right” foods, and choose “appropriate” modes of dress, faith has taken a backseat to ideology.  Conversely, when former Adventists create an Adventist straw man for a perpetual public flogging, their message of grace is undermined.

The investigative judgment is brought out by Marcel as the backdrop of former Adventist angst: “I know for many of you, you either leave the denomination altogether to flee the IJ as the ‘foundation of deception,’ or be branded cultic.” Here is where I must disagree with Marcel.  The investigative judgment doctrine absolutely denies the biblical gospel of Jesus Christ and demeans the atonement he made on the cross, creating an incomplete atonement that flies in the face of Scripture.  Marcel is no doubt aware of the monumental theological battles waged in the Adventist church over Desmond Ford’s challenge of this doctrine, resulting in its reinforcement and the defrocking of Ford.  Despite the lack of belief in this doctrine by “evangelical Adventists,” it is still official Adventist teaching and is subscribed to at the highest echelons of the church.

In a 2002 speech, General Conference president Jan Paulsen heartily endorsed the historic investigative judgment doctrine: “A further word needs to be said about our being ‘loyal to our heritage and to our identity.’ Some would have us believe that there have been significant shifts in recent times in regard to doctrines that historically have been at the heart of Seventh-day Adventism.  Take specifically our understanding of judgment and Christ’s ministry in the heavenly sanctuary and the prophetic messages in which these teachings are contained. Some are suggesting that since the 1980 (Glacier View) meetings, the very teachings that the church affirmed that year at those meetings have been abandoned, and that the church has essentially moved to accept the very positions it rejected then. Such a claim is a distortion of reality, and nothing could be further from the truth. The historic sanctuary message, based on Scripture and supported by the writings of Ellen White, continues to be held to unequivocally. And the inspired authorities on which these and other doctrines are based, namely the Bible supported by the writings of Ellen White, continue to be the hermeneutical foundation on which we as a church place all matters of faith and conduct. Let no one think that there has been a change of position in regard to this.

It should be obvious from this statement that the current president of the Adventist church is not in harmony with the brand of Adventism Marcel is practicing.  It is not fair to criticise former Adventists, therefore, for the stand they have taken in seeing the inconsistency of the investigative judgment and the biblical gospel.  This is not some obscure teaching that only the extreme right-wing of Adventism subscribes to.  Whether you agree with them or not, it is unreasonable to accuse former Adventists of making mountains out of molehills when they are defending the biblical gospel against a doctrine that strikes at its heart.  Taking a stand for truth matters and it is not without biblical precedent. Perhaps the best example we have is the apostle Paul, who also had very strong words for anyone who would tamper with the gospel (Galatians 1:8-9).

Marcel goes on to say, “I have seen in quite a few comments a sometime-arrogant superiority complex from your discovery of grace, while presupposing that the Adventists you left behind aren’t capable of finding it on their own.” Point well taken.  Discovering God’s grace as revealed in Jesus Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit should be tremendously humbling and not give anyone cause to boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).  It is true that some former Adventists have acted ungracious in their discovery of grace.  In trying to understand this, however, it’s helpful to understand the various practices within Adventism that cause deeply personal wounds, many of which Marcel mentions later in his post.  When someone leaves a church where their every action was measured against the writings of Ellen G. White, the discovery of righteousness by faith alone begins to smash many of the old, painful chains that once bound them.  Given this, we can hopefully look beyond the rhetoric to the miracle that has transpired in the lives of these individuals and begin to see the perfect Savior who is behind the imperfect former Adventist.

Marcel then transitions to a discussion of “emergent Adventism,” a re-invention of the church he hopes to promote through his blog.  He asserts that “the paradigm of the conversation [in Adventism] has changed,” and that attacking the old fundamentals is akin to propagating an argument that has long since grown stale.  He says, ”If you paid close attention, you’d notice that the paradigms of our conversations have changed. We are deconstructing and reconstructing Adventist truth. We’ve moved beyond the griping and debates of historical fundamentalism, the interpretations of Daniel and Revelation, etc. Frankly, we’ll leave that to you guys to debate with diehard SDA’s because that stuff bores us out of our minds.”

Unfortunately as is demonstrated by the Paulsen quote above, the argument has not grown stale, and it is not some fringe wing of the Adventist church who believes in all 28 fundamentals.  As further evidence, in William G. Johnsson’s final editorial in the most recent Adventist Review, he wrote, “Sound theology is vital; it must never be compromised. But the Fundamental Beliefs draw the boundaries, and so long as any Adventist assents to them, he or she deserves respect and fellowship. Points of doctrine not spelled out in the Fundamentals must not be allowed to divide us.” What’s clear is that this debate continues unabated and that serious divisions exist within Adventism.  It is not realistic at this point, therefore, to make the broad assertion that the Adventist paradigm has changed.

To his credit, Marcel says, “Thankfully, I’ve escaped the atrocities that I’ve read about. Although there have been many frustrating moments dealing with an apathetic leadership, being told what we can and cannot do, I’ve never had to deal with religious abuse, like a pastor trying to ‘establish blame’ for my divorce when I needed grace the most; I’ve never been alienated or disfellowshipped by my church when I didn’t agree with all the pillars; I’ve never been manipulated into conforming to the standards of living by a self-righteous congregation; and I’ve never experienced severe judgment about lifestyle preferences that left psychological scars. Now that’s cultic! I empathize with you and also deeply regret that you had those experiences.”

While our major disagreements result from what we believe defines Adventism, we can hopefully agree on the Person who is at the center of our faith and the free gift of salvation – apart from works of the law or human effort – that is available to all who put their faith in Jesus Christ.  Marcel’s comment about the dichotomy between “winning souls” and translating faith into action aside (because this dichotomy should never exist on any level), we can agree that the level of discourse between current and former Adventists is more often ungracious than not, and that through continued dialogue, this will hopefully change.  Let us begin by admitting that none of us has all the answers, that we are sinners in need of a Savior, and that it is only through his grace we are even able to have these discussions.  In short, let’s allow our faith to rise above our dogma and the finished work of Jesus Christ to overshadow our need to win an argument.  “In him we live and move and have our being.” (Acts 17:28)

Finally, I’d like to thank Marcel for graciously linking to For the Gospel on Re-Inventing the SDA Wheel’s home page.

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Posted: 29 December 2006 04:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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Greg,

Though I haven’t read Marcel’s blog, I must commend you for a well balanced and reasonable assessment of it. It is unfortunate that many formers who will read it will not be so open minded and kind.

Thanks for your comments.

guibox

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Posted: 30 December 2006 03:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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Guibox,

It is troubling that a spirit of “us vs. them” emerges so easily on both sides (whether current or former Adventist).  For all the truth and grace accumulated by many formers, a gracious approach to current Adventists is oftentimes conspicuously missing.  To my thinking, the burden of kindness rests with formers who have left the church, leaving their brothers and sisters in Adventism wondering what happened.  When former Adventists act in a less than gracious way, it’s no wonder that people like Marcel come to the conclusions he does.  In no way do I agree with all of his conclusions, but he raises some points that have merit, as I wrote about above.

Somewhat ironically, both sides retreat into their own private forums where reasonable interaction between the groups is not allowed and finger-pointing can flourish unabated.

What’s lost is that nobody on either side has a monopoly on Jesus or his gospel, and that by realizing how much Christ has done on our behalf, we have no cause for boasting and every reason to handle the truth with humility.

“But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.” (Galatians 6:14 ESV)

“Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” (2 Corinthians 10:17 ESV)

“Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.” (2 Corinthians 12:9-10 ESV)

Greg

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Posted: 30 December 2006 02:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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Well said Greg!

Thanks for those thoughts.

I know I have been guilty of contributing to the excessive rhetoric that Marcel is talking about when reading former SDA websites.

However, I agree with you that we should in no way mimimize the deception with regard to 1844 and Ellen White. SDA leadership is still clearly holding up the traditional view as evidenced by Paulsen’s comments.

Traditional views of the IJ and Ellen White clearly are opposed to the simple gospel of grace.

We have to keep our eyes on the Lord Jesus Christ as a powerful Savior, not the weak savior that so many today view Him. The main reason I left Adventism is because of their view of Jesus not completing the atonement at the cross, and when 1844 was found to be false, then the whole false system of works salvation is gone.

Since leaving Adventism, I have come to know a Savior who is all powerful to save. He chose me--I couldn’t have possibly chosen Him. I was dead spiritually. And since He actually paid for my sins at Calvary, and my salvation was sealed permanently there, after being predestined before time began, then Christ also goes after all his sheep, until all of His sheep are safe, and He sends His Comforter and Spirit to be a guarantee against any possibility of being lost.

The problem is that SDAs, Roman Catholics, and even the former mega-church I attended, and Pentecostals, and many other churches all believe that there is something YOU have to do to STAY SAVED. It depends on YOU abiding every day, or I heard one of my former non-SDA pastors say that since you used your free-will to become saved, you can use your free-will to become unsaved. This is a frightening thought. With this kind of theology, no wonder there is so much anxiety over salvation, and people don’t feel saved.

God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of joy and a sure anchor of hope that reaches behind the curtain (Hebrews 6) an Anchor and a Mediator which we didn’t experience in Adventism because of the fear of the Investigative Judgment, and unfortunately there are other churches who are regarded as evangelical, who also teach a form of fear with regard to their salvation being lost.

Praise God for that sure and Blessed Hope!

Stan

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Posted: 02 January 2007 06:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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Posted anonymously by: Marcel

Greg,

I want to thank you for contributing to and expanding on the original posting. I do agree that much interpretation hinges on how we define Adventism, and each individual’s experience shaping it (legalism, 1844, etc). I’m glad that we can agree on what trully matters - salvation by grace alone through our faith in Christ. No strings attached. Let this be the fuel that drives our conversations. Thanks for your posting.

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Posted: 02 January 2007 06:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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Marcel,

Your article started a firestorm of controversy on http://www.formeradventist.com at this link:

http://64.227.85.187/discus/messages/11/5052.html?1167436975

Stan

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Posted: 03 January 2007 12:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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Out of all the things that Greg mentioned from Marcel’s article, this one rings the truest:

One of Marcel’s major contentions is that former Adventists are guilty of the same “groupthink” they accuse Adventists of. He says, “Basically that the opinion expressed by a dominant small group becomes the subscribed theme of the whole group and a means to a perpetual end. Sometimes, if one if not careful, the result can be fingers pointing to heresy that is blown out of proportion, out-of-context conclusions, or black and white blanket statements alluding to Adventism being a cultic denomination deceiving 12 million members worldwide.”

What I have found on FAF and other former-adventist sites (this one being the exception : )), is that it seems that many have merely changed their theology but the strict Adventist mindset that some would label ‘cultic’ remains.

* There is still the stubborn insistence that what they believe is the truth

** others who disagree are looked down upon

*** as some SDAs hide behind EGW and the pioneers to remain in their theology despite the exegetical incorrectness of it, now many formers have traded EGW and the pioneers for strict orthodoxy but the methodology remains the same.

Despite the constant exuberance of ‘Thank God I have been freed from such a cult!’ I see emphasised, the irony is that they have merely traded one cultic mentality for another

Another thing that bothers me...if FAF and other like sites are NOT ‘ministering to SDAs’ as one person adamantly pointed on FAF, then why do they spend so much time nattering and dwelling on such negativity that they seem to be so enthusiastic to be freed from?

If ministry is not their purpose, then perhaps it would be more beneficial to move on in their new found faith and be happy instead of dwelling on criticism.

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Posted: 03 January 2007 01:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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Marcel,

Thanks for your comments.  You hit the nail on the head when you said “I’m glad that we can agree on what truly matters - salvation by grace alone through our faith in Christ. No strings attached. Let this be the fuel that drives our conversations.”

Somehow both sides of this debate seem intent on claiming ownership of Jesus Christ and his grace, when it belongs to Christ alone.  If we all kept “Christ and him crucified” as our foremost objective, these debates would lose much of their hostility.

Guibox,

I have no problem with a Christian insisting on what he believes is the truth, assuming this boldness is based on the historical revelation of Jesus Christ in the Bible.  What is disturbing and where I completely agree with you, is how this truth is handled.  Discovering the gospel in the grace of Jesus Christ should be cause for ultimate humility and overwhelming gratitude for what God has done on our behalf.  That this discovery of grace motivates people to ungraciously point the finger at others (even when they may have been legitimately hurt) is what I find unfathomable.

In contrast, it’s amazing to see in Scripture how the apostle Paul handled his persecution at the hands of the Jewish and Roman authorities.

“Since many boast according to the flesh, I too will boast. For you gladly bear with fools, being wise yourselves! For you bear it if someone makes slaves of you, or devours you, or takes advantage of you, or puts on airs, or strikes you in the face. To my shame, I must say, we were too weak for that!

But whatever anyone else dares to boast of–I am speaking as a fool–I also dare to boast of that. Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they offspring of Abraham? So am I. Are they servants of Christ? I am a better one–I am talking like a madman–with far greater labors, far more imprisonments, with countless beatings, and often near death. Five times I received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one. Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I was stoned. Three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I was adrift at sea; on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brothers; in toil and hardship, through many a sleepless night, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. And, apart from other things, there is the daily pressure on me of my anxiety for all the churches. Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to fall, and I am not indignant?

If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.” (2 Corinthians 11:18-31 ESV)

I think it is highly significant that the apostle Paul willingly endured hardships for the surpassing glory of Jesus Christ, becoming all things to all people so that he might win some for the kingdom.  I am saddened by the failure on all sides to learn from and be motivated by Paul’s example.

“For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them.” (1 Corinthians 9:19 ESV)

Greg

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Posted: 03 January 2007 04:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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Posted anonymously by: Glenn

Greg,

A very gracious response, thank you.

The principle problem I’ve seen in the writings of former SDA’s is the same reliance on “proof-texts” that are such a problem in Adventism. Particularly, I see a tendency to quote only certain verses in Romans, Galations, or Ephesians. I know Dale Ratzlaf holds that the epistles (particularly Paul’s) should interpret the gospels. But I don’t know what the basis or authority is for that view or why the gospels themselves seem to get such little thrift in the writings of “formers”.

For example, Matthew 12:36 (alas, another “proof-text") has Jesus telling his disciples that every word of theirs would come up in the judgment. While I don’t want to base an entire theology on this one verse, this is at least one rationale for thinking of an “investigative judgment” in the N.T. 

In addition, if the atonement was completed at the cross--as most former SDA’s seem to believe--where does Christ’s work as intercessor come into play? Isn’t intercession a continued form of atonement? I don’t think one has to subscribe fully to the traditional IJ to still see throughout the NT a basis for understanding Christ’s high priestly ministry in the light of it’s old testament shadow. 

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Posted: 03 January 2007 06:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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Another one of Greg’s comments I’d like to comment on..(Hmm...too many ‘comments’ in that phrase)

It is true that some former Adventists have acted ungracious in their discovery of grace. In trying to understand this, however, it’s helpful to understand the various practices within Adventism that cause deeply personal wounds...When someone leaves a church where their every action was measured against the writings of Ellen G. White, the discovery of righteousness by faith alone begins to smash many of the old, painful chains that once bound them

I think this is important to note. There are some of us that understand fully what grace is and still respect the writings of EGW. It is unfortunate that some formers feel SDAs are ‘deceived’ as they feel they were and how they interpret their own experience. Any SDA I’ve known has experienced the contradictions and not felt that the wool was pulled over their eyes. Believe it or not, the majority of SDAs are not blinded sheep culticly brainwashed by gullibly accepting everything thrown at them.

I for one have settled the seeming contradictions in my mind on EGW and prophecy and yet still respect her and her writings. I don’t feel deceived in anyway.

Experience is everything and one’s experience doesn’t make what they say the norm for everybody or the truth on the matter. One coming out of SDA Reform will have a much different experience than one coming out of liberal Adventism. How can you judge one experience by the other? I can’t blame some people for coming out of strict SDAism to feel decieved. I think anybody coming from any conservative arm of any church have felt the same way. Does that mean that everyone in the church is thus deceived and needs to be saved? I think not.

What I see in most formers is an underlying desire to not allow SDAs to ‘live and let live’. They feel that just like them, most SDAs need to be ‘exposed’ to the ‘truth’ and the ‘deceptions of their church’. Like their experience has made them the automatic and omniscient savior of those in the SDA church.

Did it ever occur to some of the them that many of us are quite aware of what they are saying, have heard it all before (and put much better and more tactly than some on some websites have) but have reconciled these things and still choose to remain in the church?

IMO, for every IJ in the SDA faith there are two other doctrinal errors in orthodoxy. It is strange that in the constant berating of SDA theology that they don’t seem to think that there exists any error in their own theology.

Again, what I see is merely the same brand of cultic, uber-conservative SDA thinking. It is just as Pharisaical...merely a different theology.

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Posted: 03 January 2007 09:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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Posted anonymously by: Marcel

Guibox,

If I could summarize my original posting into one short paragraph, I’d do it by quoting you here:

as some SDAs hide behind EGW and the pioneers to remain in their theology despite the exegetical incorrectness of it, now many formers have traded EGW and the pioneers for strict orthodoxy but the methodology remains the same.

That’s the basis of how I feel as well. Thanks for sharing.

Stan - I tried the link you provided but it looks as if it was removed? Too much fire in the storm? smile

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Posted: 03 January 2007 02:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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Yes Marcel, and I think my posting the link contributed to the very open and honest attitude of hiding that thread in their members only lock box, where you have to have a password. It was on that closed theological section, that the suspension of Greg and me was announced today.

I guess Greg and I as former SDAs did not measure up to the standard of being anti-SDA enough.

The major last argument both of us were involved in was regarding the assertion by the moderator that the SDAs who are saved while in SDA do not know the real Jesus. You can only know the real Jesus after you leave SDA. We kept up the challenge regarding this, as we believe that current SDAs who are saved indeed know the real Jesus, even though we admit that SDAs obscure the truth of the gospel with all the legalism. We were regarded as being divisive by the administrators and our posting privileges were suspended.

Stan

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Posted: 03 January 2007 04:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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Posted anonymously by: Marcel

Stan,

I’m speechless and astounded at the self-righteousness and exclusivity of what you just described. As a Christian first (and SDA second) who found grace and became “born again” through a divorce, it saddens me to think the moderator of a forum would sanction such preposterous claims. 

It appears that grace legalism is alive and well in the FAF circles? I should probably also thank you and Greg for standing up for liberal/progressive SDA’s not of the cookie cutter IJ mold. We appreciate it.

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Posted: 05 January 2007 01:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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[quote author="Marcel"]Stan,

I’m speechless and astounded at the self-righteousness and exclusivity of what you just described. As a Christian first (and SDA second) who found grace and became “born again” through a divorce, it saddens me to think the moderator of a forum would sanction such preposterous claims. 

It appears that grace legalism is alive and well in the FAF circles? I should probably also thank you and Greg for standing up for liberal/progressive SDA’s not of the cookie cutter IJ mold. We appreciate it.

Yes, this is why I appreciate what Greg and Stan are doing here. The pendulum on that forum swings so far the other way that strict orthodox Catholics look like SDAs. If I were a searching SDA (and trusst me, I have been searching and consider myself a liberal/progressive SDA), I would not be convinced one iota about the ‘dangers’ of SDAism from what I have seen on that forum. One form of cultic thinking has been traded for another and I’m glad that rational, logical, level headed analysis of SDA doctrine is prevalent here on this forum.

It is unfortunate that two out of the five (imo) people who were the most rational and logical on that forum have been banned simply for taking people to task on their strong words and brutal generalizations.

Way to go Greg and Stan, you can disagree but still be sensible. Hopefully many on FAF will do the same and either see the balance or move on in their Christian walk and leave SDAism behind for good.

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Posted: 05 January 2007 01:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
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Marcel and Guibox,

Your thoughts and observations are very much appreciated.  What I think you see missing on some former Adventist discussion forums is Christian accountability.  As Christians, we are called to be accountable to each other and we should want more than anything to be set straight if we are headed away from what the Bible teaches.  We will not always see eye to eye on every issue, but we should be humble enough about our ability to know the truth with certainty to accept a word of correction from a Christian brother or sister.

Concerning the tone of our Christian witness, I have a favorite quote from Ravi Zacharias that summarizes perfectly what I believe about Christian evangelism and the humility with which we should handle truth:

“We, as Christians, make a staggering claim.  We lay claim to truth that is exclusive.  We proclaim one way to God–Jesus the Way, the Truth and the Life.  When we lay claim to truth in such radical terms, it is imperative that such truth be undergirded by love.  If it is not undergirded by love, it makes the possessor of that truth obnoxious and the dogma repulsive.”

Adventists and former Adventists alike can learn from this quote.

Thanks again, Marcel and guibox, for your kind words.

Greg

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