GABRIEL PROKSCH - 25 January 2008 03:16 PM

västergötland - 25 January 2008 02:34 PM

Gabriel also wrote that sin is part of Gods plan for us. I rest my case.

Is this all you have to say after you accused us of making God the author of sin? Without proving me wrong in the way I interpreted those texts is another example of making naked affirmations, without backing them up with proofs, biblical proofs.

gabriel

You said yourself that sin is part of Gods plan for us. I do not know how it could be any more clear than that. I do not see any need of proving you wrong when you are affirming what I have said. As for the biblical texts in your other post, they will require some consideration and will not be hastily replied to.

GABRIEL PROKSCH - 25 January 2008 03:24 PM

Did God allow sin to enter the world or did God plan and purpose sin to enter the world via a prideful human act?

God is not the author of sin, still he is the author of the plan which uses sin for his glory. God did not sinned himself, He used sin for his plans.

It seems that you changed your mind regarding resting your case.

Gabriel

How is this not splitting hairs?
Al Capone was never caught redhanded with the spirits industry, yet it is widely believed that he was the author of the plan which used the liquour for his profit. As far as I know, noone could ever prove that he had any part of it himself but about everyone is convinced it was a substantial part of his plans.

I assume you will not like this illustration but I am giving it non the less.

Maybe this would be a good time to explore what sin is. Knowing what sin is and what sin is not might prove helpful in figguring out the extent to which God could or could not author it or use it for His purposes.

västergötland - 25 January 2008 03:29 PM

You said yourself that sin is part of Gods plan for us. I do not know how it could be any more clear than that. I do not see any need of proving you wrong when you are affirming what I have said. As for the biblical texts in your other post, they will require some consideration and will not be hastily replied to.

The biblical texts I quoted are my proof of not being guilty of what you accused me. My understanding about sin as part of God’s plan is guided by those texts, and I believe that these texts affirm what I said explicitly

for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. (Acts 4:27, 28 ESV)

Here we have the greatest sin, the killing of God’s only Son, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Herodus, Pontius Pilate, Gentile, peoples of Israel, all “gathered together” to put Jesus to death. And they put Jesus to death, and what they did is explicitly said to be what God planed and predestined to take place. The greatest sin in the history was included in God’s plan.

västergötland - 25 January 2008 03:36 PM

How is this not splitting hairs?
Al Capone was never caught redhanded with the spirits industry, yet it is widely believed that he was the author of the plan which used the liquour for his profit. As far as I know, noone could ever prove that he had any part of it himself but about everyone is convinced it was a substantial part of his plans.

I assume you will not like this illustration but I am giving it non the less..

I’m not splitting hairs more than Bible does. And the illustration above has its limits;

1. Capone had a bad goal in mind. God uses sin for something good. “We know that for those who love God all things work together for good” (Rom. 8:28, ESV) “All things” include bad things, and even these bad things work together, in relation to other good things, for good.  It’s a bad thing in itself to suffer loss, or to be sick, or any other bad thing it may happen to us, but at the end of the day we learn from them, and our character is shaped by them in a good way. More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. (Rom. 5:3-5, ESV)

2. Using something in a plan does not necessary require or imply that you are the producer. You can sell drugs without being the producer. Just because God uses sin in his plans for obtaining something good does not make God the producer of sin, the author.

västergötland - 25 January 2008 03:36 PM

Maybe this would be a good time to explore what sin is. Knowing what sin is and what sin is not might prove helpful in figguring out the extent to which God could or could not author it or use it for His purposes.

Hmm, “figuring out the extent to which God could ... author it [sin]” sounds similar to the questions “when you stopped beating your wife?”, and following down this path would admit to much to the accusation party and will be a self-indictment no matter how it will develop. 

However, a study of sin and of the condition which sin produces in the sinner is helpful for understanding man’s total depravity, his bondage to sin which requires someone else, God, to do for man what he cannot do for himself.  God’s perfect salvation from start to finish becomes clear when sin is apprehended in its true nature, and I remember that I said that sin should be the starting point, not predestination. In this context studying sin is not only helpful, but necessary for a correct understanding of God’s electing love.

Gabriel

västergötland, instead of getting into a debate over whether or not God is responsible for sin, perhaps it would be better to go back to an example from Scripture.

During the Egyptian captivity of the Jews, God sent plagues on Egypt in preparation for their exodus. Here is what he told Moses to proclaim to Pharoah before the seventh plague:

“Rise up early in the morning and present yourself before Pharaoh and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of the Hebrews, “Let my people go, that they may serve me. For this time I will send all my plagues on you yourself, and on your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is none like me in all the earth. For by now I could have put out my hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, and you would have been cut off from the earth. But for this purpose I have raised you up, to show you my power, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth. You are still exalting yourself against my people and will not let them go.” (Exodus 9:13-17 ESV)

In his epistle to the Romans, Paul uses the same example to demonstrate God’s sovereign control over creation:

“For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.’ So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.” (Romans 9:17-18 ESV)

västergötland, if we take your arguments at face value, we must certainly blame God for all manner of evil based on these two texts. God specifically claims He is the one who “raised up” Pharoah to hold the Israelites captive so that His power might be demonstrated in the process. In your view, we are forced to blame God for the misery perpetrated on the Israelites at the hands of Pharoah. Perhaps you will offer a different reading of the text, and if so, I’d be interested to hear it.

The way I see it, this example demonstrates clearly that God works through whatever means He chooses—even using an evil man like Pharoah—to accomplish His sovereign purposes.

Greg

Gabriel, Greg,

Very well stated.  A thought that came to mind as I finished reading Greg’s post was: “No Fall, no Pharaoh”.

Not to be tedious here, but I can’t help but feel that the tendency to blame God for Sin is enhanced by our faulty application of time as we perceive it, to God for whom time means nothing. He created time, and as time is His creation, He is not bound by it in any way.  Remembering that Sin can be simply defined as “our disobedience of God” it would be simple to consider that Man is the Originator/Creator of Sin.  Is this an oversimplification?

Regarding the “timeless and all knowing” nature of God; the following words apply to Pharaoh as much as they do to the inspired speaker David:

Psalm 139 1:5 NIV

For the director of music. Of David. A psalm.

1 O LORD, you have searched me
and you know me.

2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.

3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.

4 Before a word is on my tongue
you know it completely, O LORD.

5 You hem me in—behind and before;
you have laid your hand upon me.

In His service…