Dennis - 26 February 2008 09:48 AM

Vastergotland,

The analogy of the lamb caught in the thicket could not free itself of its own accord--no matter how enticing the invitation to be free.  The animal desperately needed a savior (shepherd) to reach down and rescue it.  Likewise, fallen humanity is at the total mercy of God.  We cannot choose what we do not desire.  In our fallen state, we do not desire Jesus.  Unless God does something first to us, we would never desire Him.  Thus, regeneration precedes faith (i.e., the case of Paul).  Our faith (belief) is a gift from God.

Arminianism would have us believe that God is at the mercy of the fallen will of man. God is not a gambler.  We are not the captains of our eternal destiny.  Salvation is from the Lord alone!  God gets ALL the glory for the salvation of His elect.  And note this, if God wanted to save everyone, He is most certainly big enough and powerful enough to do it.  However, that is not His sovereign plan according to Scripture.  The biblical truth is that we all deserve eternal separation from God, and it is most amazing that His grace would save even one of us.  We are all born as rebels against God.  This condition is called “original sin.”

Predestination is not the same as foreknowledge.  In predestination, God actively works to bring about the foreknowledge.  Our Savior not only knows the future (foreknowledge), but He actively works to make certain it pans out according to His divine will (predestination).  He even knows the number of hairs on our head.  As the song rightly says, “He knows my name.” It’s all about Him!

Jesus’ parable about the prodigal son reveals that the father (representing our Heavenly Father) believed in “ONCE A SON, ALWAYS A SON.” The prodigal son certainly didn’t act like son.  Likewise, acting like one, doesn’t get us saved and not acting like one, doesn’t get us unsaved or unadopted.



Dennis Fischer

It seems we will have to agree to disagree on this. Not only because of the disagreeableness of God creating humans to populate hell with, but also because of your failiure to give satisfactory answers to scripture which questions reformed election such as the story about the prodigal son.

Isaiah 45:9 NIV

9 “Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker,
to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds[1] on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
‘What are you making?’
Does your work say,
‘He has no hands’?

1. Potsherd a “shred”, i.e., anything severed, as a fragment of earthenware (Job 2:8; Prov. 26:23; Isa. 45:9).  Easton’s 1897 Bible Dictionary

Dennis - 26 February 2008 09:48 AM

Vastergotland,

… Predestination is not the same as foreknowledge.  In predestination, God actively works to bring about the foreknowledge.  Our Savior not only knows the future (foreknowledge), but He actively works to make certain it pans out according to His divine will (predestination).  He even knows the number of hairs on our head.  As the song rightly says, “He knows my name.” It’s all about Him!

Dennis,

I agree with your statement (quoted above) in general. However, there is an element that is missing that I’d like to explore which is: “Did God’s works of predestination/election precede His foreknowledge? No, that doesn’t make sense, does it?  Does God’s foreknowledge precede his works of predestination? Perhaps, and some might say probably...?  The reason for this mental exercise is that we as time-bound humans, tend to forget that our processes and perceptions of time and of things happening (sequences) don’t at all apply to God. He has always existed and always will!  At some point in God’s existence (how does one define a point on an infinitely long line?) He decided to create the universe, the earth, and us. He created time for our benefit. And as the Creator of time, He is not limited in any way by it. Now what does all of this talk of “time as created by God” have to do with the “Free Will” argument in this thread?

Well, here goes… God always knew what He was going to create and at the exact same time (there’s that pesky word again!) knew the final result of His creation! Neither infinite time nor infinite space can obscure His vision. Nothing can be hidden from Him!  Somewhat like the clay potter, God looks at a lump of clay with anticipation. Unlike the human potter, God created the clay and precisely knew its final form and exact destiny before the clay the object is formed from even existed!  It’s the same with us!  He knew the final outcome before creation!  He knew the elect and the non-elect alike before they existed. If human free-will were actually under human control; would it not still be a product of God’s hands? And as a product of God would this free-will thing not be under His complete authority and control? And if free-will is in His complete control then how could it truly be called “free-will”? We who make choices large and small think we are controlling outcomes. But we are truly not in control! God is in control!

Are we as humans designed to understand this apparent contradiction?  I personally don’t think so!  Thank God we are saved by faith and not by understanding!!!

Who are we to say that the creation of the non-elect is unjust?  The human potter didn’t even create the clay he uses. Yet, is it not the potter’s prerogative to discard the flawed pieces?  Our loving God so desires that all be saved. Yet He knows and has always known that some would not be…

One of the sharpest examples of how God works monergistically in salvation is the story of the resurrection of Lazarus. Lazarus represents our spiritual condition prior to salvation when we were dead in our trespasses and sins. (Ephesians 2:1-9). God picks the exact time and place that He will choose to resurrect the sinner’s dead soul to eternal life. When God does the work, then this resurrection to life will definitely end in our glorification.(Romans 8:28-30).  We are not saved against our wills, but God changes our will to want to be His disciple.

Soli Deo Gloria,

Stan

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life” (John 3:16 NASB).  The keyword in this passage is ”whoever.” One who “believes” already has the gift of faith and has been chosen by God.  Jesus said, “...no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father” (John 6:65 NASB).  Salvation is from the Lord!

Dennis Fischer