Hello to all who love the reformed faith, especially those who love John 6, particularly verse 44

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

I will not enter in the exegesis of this text, rather I’ll direct you to listen to a very interesting exchange on a radio show, the Dividing Line, about election, assurance of salvation, around this text and John 6 in general, between James White (don’t confuse him with the husband of Ellen White who is food for worms in order to fulfill his wife’s ‘prophecy’, at least partially) and an Arminian from London, a conversation in which James White had the intuition that the guy was an Open Theist and asked him if this is indeed the case, and the discussion had some very interesting ramifications from this point.

I was very pleased to see James White challenged on his reformed views about John 6 and defending them in a very convincing manner, being able very quickly to respond and challenge the Arminian guy in a way that proved the weakness of the Arminian interpretation.

In order not to spoil the satisfaction of listening to such a good apologetic work on the Reformed Faith, I will restrict my observation to a point (minute 43 on the mp3 file) when the Arminian affirmed that Unconditional Election was not taught by the Church Fathers until Augustine, implying that Augustine was the authority of this doctrine, not the Bible. James White answered by saying that Augustine was not sitting near him (James) when he proved that “him” is “him” in John 6:44. The Arminian guy argued that the first “him”, those drawn by the Father are all people in the world, but the second “him” in the same verse, four words later, is composed only by those who are responding to the drawing, those who Jesus will raise up on the last day being only “some” of those included in the first “him”.

Here is the link

http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=2823

You can watch the video on Youtube, or download the mp3, the conversation with the guy starts earlier but the part with the John 6 comment starts on minute 23 and ends around minute 45. I enjoyed the conversation, I even wanted to applaud Dr. James White for being so quick in discerning and disproving the arguments of the Arminian/ Open Theist guy. You’ll hear them also discussing some points of Open Theism, with a very good rebuttal from James White and also an exchange about substitutionary atonement in which James White challenged the guy regarding his belief in the substitutionary atonement.

If you want to read a very good article of James White about John 6 in response to a roman-catholic critic, here is a good and not so long article.

http://vintage.aomin.org/WinSunRep.html

Gabriel

Gabriel,

Thanks for posting this. James White has had a lot of good dialogues with various arminians on this chapter. One I saw was from a Calvary Chapel pastor.

I have yet to hear an arminian defender answer John 6 with any kind of reasonable response.  If John 6 and Jesus’ words are true, then Calvinism is true.

I am disappointed that I can’t get a straight answer on this from my Arminian former Adventist friends.  They think that this topic is divisive, and not worth causing division over. But this passage is key. There is no excuse to try to get around these verses some how, and run to other verses that seem to give another view, but clearly out of context.

Stan

Gabriel, thanks for sharing those interesting debates.  I never cease to be amazed by the needless hostility toward the doctrines of grace whenever they are mentioned on some Arminian-dominated forums.  Sometimes it appears that the inquisition will return again shortly.  Thankfully, there is a noteworthy resurgence of Calvinism among the young in America.  Consequently, the future looks bright for those embracing and proclaiming the doctrines of grace.  It is truly a better theology for a greater doxology.

Stan, you made a good point by stating that John 6 is true and cannot be ignored soteriologically.  Yes, our theology should make all the difference in the world.  Many of us can well remember the days when we also despised Calvinism by routinely ignoring parts of Scripture.  In my case, it was merely not understanding Calvinism.  People generally oppose what they don’t understand. 

Additionally, there is alot of pride at stake by trying to maintain control of one’s life and destiny.  From a strictly human perspective, Arminianism is very appealing to one’s inflated ego and supposed importance.  Polls indicate that most “Christians” today believe that God helps those who help themselves.  I agree with your assessment that by finally embracing Calvinism it makes one truly an authentic FORMER Adventist. 

Dennis Fischer