As I have been searching the internet to see what anti-Adventist cults are saying about Adventists, I have been quite disappointed, to say the least at what I have been turning up.

Far from convincing me to leave the Adventist Church; all it has done is to confirm my decision to commit my life to Jesus, through baptism, into the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

I have seen several posters on this forum/website charge us with not being in keeping with “Reformation Theology.” First; I would like to ask what you say Reformation Theology is.  Can you provide us with an official definition, and give publicly verifiable references for same?

More questions will follow as this topic progresses.

Protestant 101 - 13 June 2009 02:27 AM

More questions will follow as this topic progresses.

I’m less than optimistic like you are about progressing on this topic. Why?

Protestant 101 - 13 June 2009 02:27 AM

As I have been searching the internet to see what anti-Adventist cults are saying about Adventists, I have been quite disappointed, to say the least at what I have been turning up.

You’re not the only disappointed, I’m too. A lot of adventists with whom I talked mislead me into thinking that they are truly searching for truth, explaining them that I exited adventism after comparing the adventist theology with the Bible and finding it defective. Still, after hours and hours of talking, those persons still think that I left the church because I received bad treatment in it and that my childhood experience with people who behaved in an unfitting Christian way is the source of my departure from adventism. This means that I talked with them about theology in vain, consuming time and energy explaining myself, assuming that they truly listened to what I said. In the end, it proved that this is not so, they acted like whatever I said didn’t matter. They still think that something other than bad theology and a false gospel led me to the decision for leaving Adventism. It was a waste of time for my part, they just looked for something they could use to persuade me that there is no solid reason for my decision, or for proofs that any Adventist who leaves the fold of the church does it for the wrong reasons.

That’s why I said: “Gabriel, be more wise next time. Don’t spent much time with people who are not questioning Adventism, who are fully convinced that they are right and others are wrong and who look only for motivations to remain Adventists. You’ll just waste your energies, time, and will become frustrated.” That’s why, if I’m not detecting a genuine concern for finding the truth in the Adventist with whom I’m talking, I’m not interested in providing him with evidence that will go contrary to his wishes. That he will use my refusal to talk with him about these matters as proof that I’m wrong and his decision to remain Adventist is right, I have no problem with this. Talking with him would not change his decision. He made a commitment and anything I can say will not make a difference.

Protestant 101 - 13 June 2009 02:27 AM

I have seen several posters on this forum/website charge us with not being in keeping with “Reformation Theology.” First; I would like to ask what you say Reformation Theology is.  Can you provide us with an official definition, and give publicly verifiable references for same?

I doubt that you’re looking for genuine answers in this matter. Why are you asking us about what Reformation Theology is? Do you think that we are qualified to give you an answer to this question? Or are you mocking us, leading us to think that you’re truly expecting an answer to this question? In my view, you’re mocking us, because, on another thread, you said:

Protestant 101 - 13 June 2009 02:46 AM

The article being referred to above re The Remnant Church has been selectively quoted and referred to by so called Reformation Theology adherents, ignoring the actual and expressed context of same by the author.

If we are “so called” Reformation theology adherents, we are only in name, not in verity. You already assumed that we are just “so called”, false adherents to Reformation Theology. You assumed that we don’t qualify to answer your question about Reformation Theology. I suggest to direct your question to those whom you think are qualified for answering your question. In your opinion, we don’t qualify. And I’m afraid you think that we don’t even understand what Adventism is, otherwise we would had not left it. I have an Adventist friend who repeats to me over and over that he can’t find in what Luther and Calvin said anything to contradict the Adventist gospel, and that I was victim of a popular deficient view of the Adventist gospel, not the true one. The true one is in line with what Luther and Calvin said, this is his opinion.  Whatever…

Gabriel

Protestant 101 - 13 June 2009 02:27 AM

As I have been searching the internet to see what anti-Adventist cults are saying about Adventists, I have been quite disappointed, to say the least at what I have been turning up.

Protestant 101, welcome to 4TG. I hope we can have a reasonable dialogue here, and that you will feel welcome to ask questions about our position. It is my hope and prayer that you are doing so from a perspective of trying to discover biblical truth rather than trying to defend a position that must be true because it is the Adventist one.

I will also say I’ve been disappointed at a lot of the former Adventist stuff I’ve found on the Internet. There is good and bad and it all must be examined in light of God’s Word.

Protestant 101 - 13 June 2009 02:27 AM

Far from convincing me to leave the Adventist Church; all it has done is to confirm my decision to commit my life to Jesus, through baptism, into the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

I hope you believe you have first and foremost been baptized into the Christian church. Christianity is much bigger than Adventism, but the official teaching of Adventism is that it is “God’s remnant church” to the exclusion of everyone else. Christianity existed long before Adventism was born in the 1800s. Anyone who thinks Adventists have a corner on the market of truth must reflect on the situation for Christians before 1844. For example, the apostle Paul never taught “The 1844/Sanctuary Message” yet this is the foundational plank upon which Adventism is built. This thought alone should give the Adventist pause as he considers that an apostle taught by Jesus himself did not share Adventism’s foundational truth claim.

Protestant 101 - 13 June 2009 02:27 AM

I have seen several posters on this forum/website charge us with not being in keeping with “Reformation Theology.” First; I would like to ask what you say Reformation Theology is.  Can you provide us with an official definition, and give publicly verifiable references for same?

Start by considering Luther’s statement that the article of truth upon which the Christian church stands or falls is justification by faith alone. Consider that on this point the Protestants and Catholics divided sharply. According to the Council of Trent, anyone who believes or teaches the doctrine of justification by faith alone is “anathema”. The gospel of Jesus Christ has thus been “anathematized” by Roman Catholics. In a sad twist of irony, many Protestants who owe their legacy to the men who stood against Rome now essentially hold to the Roman Catholic view of justification and Adventism sadly falls into this category. While fighting Rome on some fronts, Adventism joins Rome on the most important front—the gospel.

Please check this thread for more detail on what I’ve just described. There are many other threads here where we’ve touched on similar topics. Feel free to ask more questions and I promise to answer as I have the time.

Greg

Greg - 13 June 2009 07:53 AM

Protestant 101 - 13 June 2009 02:27 AM

As I have been searching the internet to see what anti-Adventist cults are saying about Adventists, I have been quite disappointed, to say the least at what I have been turning up.

Protestant 101, welcome to 4TG. I hope we can have a reasonable dialogue here, and that you will feel welcome to ask questions about our position. It is my hope and prayer that you are doing so from a perspective of trying to discover biblical truth rather than trying to defend a position that must be true because it is the Adventist one.

I will also say I’ve been disappointed at a lot of the former Adventist stuff I’ve found on the Internet. There is good and bad and it all must be examined in light of God’s Word.

Protestant 101 - 13 June 2009 02:27 AM

Far from convincing me to leave the Adventist Church; all it has done is to confirm my decision to commit my life to Jesus, through baptism, into the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

I hope you believe you have first and foremost been baptized into the Christian church. Christianity is much bigger than Adventism, but the official teaching of Adventism is that it is “God’s remnant church” to the exclusion of everyone else. Christianity existed long before Adventism was born in the 1800s. Anyone who thinks Adventists have a corner on the market of truth must reflect on the situation for Christians before 1844. For example, the apostle Paul never taught “The 1844/Sanctuary Message” yet this is the foundational plank upon which Adventism is built. This thought alone should give the Adventist pause as he considers that an apostle taught by Jesus himself did not share Adventism’s foundational truth claim.

Protestant 101 - 13 June 2009 02:27 AM

I have seen several posters on this forum/website charge us with not being in keeping with “Reformation Theology.” First; I would like to ask what you say Reformation Theology is.  Can you provide us with an official definition, and give publicly verifiable references for same?

Start by considering Luther’s statement that the article of truth upon which the Christian church stands or falls is justification by faith alone. Consider that on this point the Protestants and Catholics divided sharply. According to the Council of Trent, anyone who believes or teaches the doctrine of justification by faith alone is “anathema”. The gospel of Jesus Christ has thus been “anathematized” by Roman Catholics. In a sad twist of irony, many Protestants who owe their legacy to the men who stood against Rome now essentially hold to the Roman Catholic view of justification and Adventism sadly falls into this category. While fighting Rome on some fronts, Adventism joins Rome on the most important front—the gospel.

Please check this thread for more detail on what I’ve just described. There are many other threads here where we’ve touched on similar topics. Feel free to ask more questions and I promise to answer as I have the time.

Greg

Well; you seem more cordial than the poster above you!  Listen; I make no bones about my motives no matter where I go or whom I am speaking with - on or offline.  I am an Adventist; and I am committed to that Church which you all make sport of here.  I am here to question what you are saying on this site about Seventh-day Adventists. If you or your fellow forum members really have “the truth” then why waste time characterizing my motives?  I want to ask questions of people such as yourself; and it’s amazing how many excuse away anything in depth, on the basis of wanting to “help” searching Adventists. That is just an excuse; I have had the same from Ratzlaff, and all manner of anti-Adventists.  You all get your dogma from the same one or two sources, showing that we could indeed do some serious questioning here.

I was really hoping that my posts and questions here would not be questioned as to motives, as in not being sincere or honest.  This is the kind of demonizing of other denominations that Satan loves.  I am not scared to put my beliefs out in the open; and to have them examined intensely; but I have a growing disgust for the sentiment purported that a committed Adventist who asks questions and compares beliefs, is somehow not honest or not sincere.  Where do you get that from?  You have never met me and you don’t know me from a hole in the ground...and all I did was ask you what you mean by “Reformation Theology” because this website accuses us of not adhering to it. I address this to anyone reading here who thinks like this about Adventist whom they cannot “convert.” With the general way this site and it’s members talk about Adventists, what makes you think we would want to join such a religion?  I know you do get a few into your net but there are a lot of even non-Adventist who see through the black hole of anti-Adventism.

I wonder if any of you have ever taken the trouble to really study in-depth with our Catholic brethren for over three years like I have?  I wonder what would happen if a forum like this would try the same with an Adventist, who is committed to the Adventist Church.  Would you have the courage to put your beliefs out on the table for the public to see, and to compare with their own Bibles, in their own homes?  Or, are you going to hide behind accusations of insincerity, dishonesty, and other menial characterizations?

Now, we can continue to discuss Reformation Theology, or you can just do your thing and ban me.  You say in your logo “good news for Adventists;” so lets have it!!

Protestant 101 - 13 June 2009 09:10 AM

You all get your dogma from the same one or two sources, showing that we could indeed do some serious questioning here.

Please stop and reconsider what you wrote, because this one sentence basically affirms Gabriel’s concerns above.

I made a statement about justification by faith alone that you bypassed completely. If you are interested in having a fruitful discussion, let’s start here. My assertion is that through Jesus Christ there is forgiveness for all sins—past, present and future. There is nothing that I can do to merit or maintain this forgiveness, it is all of grace. The apostle Paul said that if righteousness were obtained through keeping the law, than Christ died for no purpose (Galatians 2:21). Adventists and Catholics teach that law-keeping is part and parcel of our justification before God and this is the heart of my concern for both groups. I do not wish to propagate a “dogma” to “get a few into my net” as you stated above. Put down your weapons and let’s have a friendly exchange of ideas in the light of God’s Word.

Greg

Protestant 101 - 13 June 2009 09:10 AM

If you or your fellow forum members really have “the truth” then why waste time characterizing my motives?

Simply because on your second post on this forum you named us “so called Reformation Theology adherents”. I had not named you “so called Adventist theology adherent”, implying that you’re not an Adventist. You just simply jumped in and in your second post on this forum, you accused us of false profession of faith, or belief. I question the motivation of anybody who’s calling me a liar without offering any proof. You will do the same if somebody, without any proof, speaks about you as “so called Adventist theology adherent.” Let’s be honest, you started questioning our motivations by implying that we lie about our profession of faith, and what does this speak about your motivation, if you have no proof to back this up? If you want us to respect what you’re saying, renounce the disrespectful attitude. 

Gabriel

Greg - 13 June 2009 09:32 AM

Protestant 101 - 13 June 2009 09:10 AM

You all get your dogma from the same one or two sources, showing that we could indeed do some serious questioning here.

Please stop and reconsider what you wrote, because this one sentence basically affirms Gabriel’s concerns above.

I made a statement about justification by faith alone that you bypassed completely. If you are interested in having a fruitful discussion, let’s start here. My assertion is that through Jesus Christ there is forgiveness for all sins—past, present and future. There is nothing that I can do to merit or maintain this forgiveness, it is all of grace. The apostle Paul said that if righteousness were obtained through keeping the law, than Christ died for no purpose (Galatians 2:21). Adventists and Catholics teach that law-keeping is part and parcel of our justification before God and this is the heart of my concern for both groups. I do not wish to propagate a “dogma” to “get a few into my net” as you stated above. Put down your weapons and let’s have a friendly exchange of ideas in the light of God’s Word.

Greg

Actually; this topic was supposed to be about Reformation Theology.  This website accuses Adventists of not following Reformation Theology. You and others who have replied here have shown more interest in making the Adventist look stupid, and trying to insinuate his dishonesty and insincerity.  When you stop bypassing my question about Reformation Theology; I will be happy to engage in a discussion of “justification by faith alone;” as you have coined it.

GABRIEL PROKSCH - 13 June 2009 09:54 AM

Protestant 101 - 13 June 2009 09:10 AM

If you or your fellow forum members really have “the truth” then why waste time characterizing my motives?

Simply because on your second post on this forum you named us “so called Reformation Theology adherents”. I had not named you “so called Adventist theology adherent”, implying that you’re not an Adventist. You just simply jumped in and in your second post on this forum, you accused us of false profession of faith, or belief. I question the motivation of anybody who’s calling me a liar without offering any proof. You will do the same if somebody, without any proof, speaks about you as “so called Adventist theology adherent.” Let’s be honest, you started questioning our motivations by implying that we lie about our profession of faith, and what does this speak about your motivation, if you have no proof to back this up? If you want us to respect what you’re saying, renounce the disrespectful attitude. 

Gabriel

Actually, it is your disrespectful attitude that needs to be renounced.  This website accuses Adventists of not following Reformation Theology, and you attacked me immediately for that line of questioning, thereby bypassing the OP altogether, in favor of trying to rationalize a big statement about how insincere I am.  I asked an innocent question in the OP and you have no right to publically smear people like this.  I refuse to respect your disrespectful attitude to me after my first post, but if you are interested in a discussion re Reformation Theology, I will put away my guns too and try to compare notes with you on this subject.

If you are not a Reformation Theology adherent, then why would you go along with this website’s accusation against Adventists for not accepting it? People can only say what they see. And you have named me as an Adventist Theology adherent by your judgments on me pertaining to my beliefs, which are Adventist.

Once again; both you and Greg have avoided my OP question of Reformation Theology.  And in favor of what?  In your FIRST post on this topic, you accused me.  I believe that kind of thing needs to be challenged, and that you need to know what people think of your “ministry,” and your “help” and your “good news.”

I am still willing to have a civilized discussion, but only if you stop accusing me of such heinous motives that you have no way of knowing.

Protestant 101 - 13 June 2009 11:58 PM

Actually; this topic was supposed to be about Reformation Theology.  This website accuses Adventists of not following Reformation Theology. You and others who have replied here have shown more interest in making the Adventist look stupid, and trying to insinuate his dishonesty and insincerity.  When you stop bypassing my question about Reformation Theology; I will be happy to engage in a discussion of “justification by faith alone;” as you have coined it.

Justification by faith alone is not a term I coined and is the at the foundation of Reformation Theology. I have not ignored your question, I am simply directing you to the starting point in understanding where Reformation Theology differs from Roman Catholicism and Adventism. There is no “official definition” of Reformation Theology in the sense that there are “official doctrines” of the Adventist church as codified in the 28 Fundamental Beliefs because the adherents of Reformation Theology span multiple denominations and church bodies. A good place to gain more understanding is in the confessions and catechisms of the Reformed and Lutheran traditions, e.g. Westminster Confession of Faith, Heidelberg catechism, Belgic confession, Augsburg confession and Luther’s large and small catechisms. All of these are available online. Of course the best place to begin your study is the Bible and the text I provided above is a good place to start. Luther began his journey with one phrase from the book of Romans, “The righteous shall live by faith” (Romans 1:17).

Greg

Protestant 101 - 14 June 2009 12:13 AM

Once again; both you and Greg have avoided my OP question of Reformation Theology.  And in favor of what?  In your FIRST post on this topic, you accused me.  I believe that kind of thing needs to be challenged, and that you need to know what people think of your “ministry,” and your “help” and your “good news.”

I am still willing to have a civilized discussion, but only if you stop accusing me of such heinous motives that you have no way of knowing.

Before Gabriel made his first post you had accused the members of this forum of being “so called Reformation Theology adherents”. If we are guilty of accusing you falsely and questioning your motives before engaging in any discussion with you, you are also guilty by your own logic. The sword cuts both ways.

Greg

Greg - 14 June 2009 07:40 AM

Protestant 101 - 14 June 2009 12:13 AM

Once again; both you and Greg have avoided my OP question of Reformation Theology.  And in favor of what?  In your FIRST post on this topic, you accused me.  I believe that kind of thing needs to be challenged, and that you need to know what people think of your “ministry,” and your “help” and your “good news.”

I am still willing to have a civilized discussion, but only if you stop accusing me of such heinous motives that you have no way of knowing.

Before Gabriel made his first post you had accused the members of this forum of being “so called Reformation Theology adherents”. If we are guilty of accusing you falsely and questioning your motives before engaging in any discussion with you, you are also guilty by your own logic. The sword cuts both ways.

Greg

Well; I am not sure how you would perceive my comments re Reformation Theology adherents as an “accusation;” but I would call that hypersensitive, to say the least. It was a comment based upon the original contention of this web site that Adventists somehow do not follow Reformation Theology. And, in the second post, after my OP, here are a couple of quotes to refresh your memory:

A lot of adventists with whom I talked mislead me into thinking that they are truly searching for truth,

I doubt that you’re looking for genuine answers in this matter.

Now, who did you say threw the first stone here?

Why you left the Adventist Church; and whether you are qualified to answer my question is not my area of interest; I am addressing some specific things this site is saying, period.

You made another post about Reformation Theology, stating that it does not have a succinct definition; and that’s fine for now, so what do you mean when you say you are Reform Theology adherents in name, but not in verity; and how do see Adventists as “wrong” in light of the answer to that question?

Protestant 101 - 14 June 2009 01:29 PM

Now, who did you say threw the first stone here?

Protestant 101 - 13 June 2009 02:27 AM

As I have been searching the internet to see what anti-Adventist cults are saying about Adventists, I have been quite disappointed…

Well, from your first post on this thread, you used the term “anti-Adventist cult” which is hardly a friendly opening. Why did you feel the need to throw this stone before even asking a question?

Protestant 101 - 14 June 2009 01:29 PM

You made another post about Reformation Theology, stating that it does not have a succinct definition; and that’s fine for now, so what do you mean when you say you are Reform Theology adherents in name, but not in verity…

Where did I say I was an adherent to Reformation Theology in name but not in verity? Why are you putting words in my mouth?

Protestant 101 - 14 June 2009 01:29 PM

...and how do [you] see Adventists as “wrong” in light of the answer to that question?

I already answered this. Adventists, like Roman Catholics, do not endorse the heart of the gospel which is justification by faith alone. Maybe you’d like to offer some dialogue on this point and if so, I’m ready to listen.

Greg

Greg - 14 June 2009 02:48 PM

Protestant 101 - 14 June 2009 01:29 PM

Now, who did you say threw the first stone here?

Protestant 101 - 13 June 2009 02:27 AM

As I have been searching the internet to see what anti-Adventist cults are saying about Adventists, I have been quite disappointed…

Well, from your first post on this thread, you used the term “anti-Adventist cult” which is hardly a friendly opening. Why did you feel the need to throw this stone before even asking a question?

Protestant 101 - 14 June 2009 01:29 PM

You made another post about Reformation Theology, stating that it does not have a succinct definition; and that’s fine for now, so what do you mean when you say you are Reform Theology adherents in name, but not in verity…

Where did I say I was an adherent to Reformation Theology in name but not in verity? Why are you putting words in my mouth?

Protestant 101 - 14 June 2009 01:29 PM

...and how do [you] see Adventists as “wrong” in light of the answer to that question?

I already answered this. Adventists, like Roman Catholics, do not endorse the heart of the gospel which is justification by faith alone. Maybe you’d like to offer some dialogue on this point and if so, I’m ready to listen.

Greg

It was actually your partner here; Gabriel, I believe that came right out and said the bit about “not in verity;” however, if you try to say that you disagree with him on that point, then maybe I would believe you more.  Your website has thrown many stones at Adventists, well before I came along; and when I used the term “anti-Adventist cult” it was not the first stone thrown on this web site.  I can only say what I see; if you don’t approve, then prove me wrong.

But; lets put away the he said they said politics for now. and get more to the subject. It appears that you are saying “Reformation Theology” may be summarized with “justification by faith alone.” Is this correct?  I will take some time to clarify your remarks before presuming, and hopefully avoid misunderstanding that way.

If that is correct, then I would definitely have more questions, comments.

Protestant 101 - 14 June 2009 04:27 PM

It was actually your partner here; Gabriel, I believe that came right out and said the bit about “not in verity;” however, if you try to say that you disagree with him on that point, then maybe I would believe you more.  Your website has thrown many stones at Adventists, well before I came along; and when I used the term “anti-Adventist cult” it was not the first stone thrown on this web site.  I can only say what I see; if you don’t approve, then prove me wrong.

You totally misread Gabriel’s post. He was replying to your “so called Reformation Theology adherents” comment saying that if we are “so called” adherents (as you labeled us on another thread), we’re adherents in name only and not in verity. He was trying to show you the logical conclusion of your baseless criticism. You misread his comment and twisted it to mean something entirely different on which you now would like to build a case against us. Sorry, but your fundamental inability to read and reply to what was actually written means that futher discussion with you will be a very unfruitful endeavor indeed.

One last comment. I did not say that Reformation Theology was summarized by “justification by faith alone”, but it is certainly a good place to start and I encourage you to study this doctrine further. I’ve already pointed you to some excellent resources, but the best resource is the Bible.

Greg

Welcome Protestant 101 to 4TG.

I pray that you are an honest searcher for truth. I hope also I am open to examining truth.

Have you ever read this book comparing Roman Catholicism to Adventism?

http://www.presenttruthmag.com/7dayadventist/shaking/

Please just read the first few chapters and tell us where Paxton is wrong in his study.

All you have to do is compare the RCC statements from the Council of Trent, and you will see why Adventism has a serious problem if they claim to be heirs of the Reformation.

If you will examine this website carefully, you will see that we have spoken out against anti-SDA websites that go too far. On this site we do not try to antagonize SDAs, but we would like to have honest dialogue.

Stan

Greg - 14 June 2009 06:30 PM

Protestant 101 - 14 June 2009 04:27 PM

One last comment. I did not say that Reformation Theology was summarized by “justification by faith alone”, but it is certainly a good place to start and I encourage you to study this doctrine further. I’ve already pointed you to some excellent resources, but the best resource is the Bible.Greg

Based on the “resources” which you have pointed me to, and on your constant hammering about “justification by faith alone;” it is not hard to see why anyone would not see you all here as Reformation Theology adherents.  If you read my post, you will see that I did not say you said anything; I was asking for clarification.  Asking for clarification is not an accusation.  All I want to know is what do you say Reformation Theology is?  Can I see a list of the main points which you see in it?  You accuse Adventists on this site of not keeping in line with it - I would like it spelled out more clearly. If it’s more than just “justification by faith alone;” what else would you add to that?  Do you mean one of the Creeds/Confessions?

If you are not in fact saying that Reformation Theology is summed up by “justification by faith alone;” then that means there is something else we need to add to “justification by faith alone” in order to see what the scope of your view is on this.  Why won’t you just come out with it?