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“Reformation Theology”
Posted: 25 November 2009 08:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 196 ]  
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GABRIEL PROKSCH - 24 November 2009 10:17 PM
Protestant101 - 24 November 2009 07:07 PM
GABRIEL PROKSCH - 24 November 2009 12:06 PM
Protestant101 - 24 November 2009 09:46 AM

Jesus alone and faith alone are not one and the same thing.  Saved by faith in Christ alone. Faith has to have an object; it cannot stand alone and somehow be our Savior. You have utterly failed to show proof to the contrary, or that the Reformers would have a major problem with what I am saying. That just leaves you with your typical name calling and anti-Protestant dalliance.

Faith has an object, Christ’s merits. I made this clear in a previous post of mine where I quoted the reformed confessions in order to show that they had all been united in affirming faith alone, sola fide over against the Roman Catholic Church.

But you have failed, so far to “prove” your point without quoting Calvin or his peers.  For some reason you cant just quote the Bible, as members of this forum keep asking me to do.

You asked for proof that the reformers will disagree with you, I brought proof from their words. I can’t prove what you asked me to prove without quoting them as I can’t prove no opinion of yours to others without quoting you.

Here is my biblical proof that “faith alone” doesn’t mean “faith without an object”, rather that faith obtains justification “apart from works”

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.” Romans 3:21-4-8

Faith has an object, Jesus Christ, God:

“faith in Jesus” Christ Romans 3:21
“Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.” Rom. 3:24,25
“faith in Jesus” Rom. 3:26
“Abraham believed God” Rom. 4:3
“believes in him who justifies the ungodly” Rom. 4:5

We are explicitly told that justification is by faith in Christ’s work “apart from the works of the law”:

“one is justified by faith apart from works of the law” Romans 3:28
“God counts righteousness apart from works” Romans 4:6

Works are excluded from the way in which we are justified, that is clear. And works are, as in Romans 3:28 presented in contrast with faith in the context of justification:

“to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly” Romans 3:5

“Does not work” is contrasted with faith, “But believes”. As far as justification is concerned works stand in opposition to faith. God’s salvation is a gift to be received, not something earned as a debt:

“Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. “ Rom. 4:4

Works are excluded, we don’t receive God’s gift as something which is our due. The nature of the gift requires us to receive it by faith alone, apart from works. That is the meaning of “faith alone”: works are excluded, we are justified by faith alone, exclusively through faith in Christ.

Gabriel

Your use of Rom 3:5 doesn’t seem in context. Was thata typo?  Can I clarify something a little more please?  Are you saying that “faith” and “belief” are, in the Bible, one and the same?

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Posted: 25 November 2009 08:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 197 ]  
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JeremyG - 24 November 2009 11:53 AM
Protestant101 - 24 November 2009 10:49 AM
JeremyG - 24 November 2009 10:43 AM

You say that you believe we are “saved by faith in Christ alone.” But do you agree with Gabriel’s statement that we are “saved by faith alone in Christ alone”?

Jeremy

If you show me just one text that says “faith alone;” then I can agree to it, of course. But you consistently avoid doing that.

Well, finally, I at least got you to admit that by saying “faith in Christ alone” you still do not mean “faith alone in Christ alone.”

I don’t understand why you tried to deceive us about your true position.

Jeremy

No “deception” is involved at all “friend.” If this is the best exegesis you can muster; then I would question wherein the “deception” really lies here. Perhaps you would be better off to explain from the Bible just how you have concluded that “faith” and “belief” are one and the same? Perhaps, you can even admit that John 3:16 was an innapropriate application of scripture for the context at hand.

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Posted: 25 November 2009 09:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 198 ]  
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Protestant101 - 25 November 2009 08:06 PM

Your use of Rom 3:5 doesn’t seem in context. Was thata typo?  Can I clarify something a little more please?  Are you saying that “faith” and “belief” are, in the Bible, one and the same?

You are right, it is Romans 4:5 and not Romans 3:5, I pasted the entire text above the specific quotations. Regarding “faith’” and “belief”, you can verify Romans 3:21-4:8 in the GreekNew Testament. The same greek word for “belief” and faith is used, pistis, and when is is said that Abraham “believed in God”, the verb pisteuo, which is the act of exercising pistis, faith.  No difference between belief and faith.

Gabriel

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Posted: 25 November 2009 11:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 199 ]  
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Protestant101 - 25 November 2009 08:02 PM

Calvin is your authoritative source of truth so I don’t mind comparing notes. Relax brother!  You seem pretty tense. When you calm down I will still be willing to listen to your side, but that doesn’t mean I won’t have an opinion too.

This is opinion, you are right about that. If it were fact, you’d be able to substantiate the accusation you made previously:

Protestant101 - 24 November 2009 10:35 AM

You can only quote Calvin to “prove” me wrong - so much for promise-breaking accusations of anti-Adventists.

So far my request for substantiation of this accusation remains unanswered—or do you not have any evidence to back up your claim?

While you’re at it, you can show me where I have claimed that Calvin’s writings are a “continuing and authoritative source of truth” as you and other Adventists claim for Ellen White. I am looking for evidence, not your opinion.

Greg

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Posted: 26 November 2009 08:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 200 ]  
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Greg - 25 November 2009 11:08 PM
Protestant101 - 25 November 2009 08:02 PM

Calvin is your authoritative source of truth so I don’t mind comparing notes. Relax brother!  You seem pretty tense. When you calm down I will still be willing to listen to your side, but that doesn’t mean I won’t have an opinion too.

This is opinion, you are right about that. If it were fact, you’d be able to substantiate the accusation you made previously:

Protestant101 - 24 November 2009 10:35 AM

You can only quote Calvin to “prove” me wrong - so much for promise-breaking accusations of anti-Adventists.

So far my request for substantiation of this accusation remains unanswered—or do you not have any evidence to back up your claim?

While you’re at it, you can show me where I have claimed that Calvin’s writings are a “continuing and authoritative source of truth” as you and other Adventists claim for Ellen White. I am looking for evidence, not your opinion.

Greg

Poor Greg...struggling away with that wrangy ol strawman again. When you are finished, maybe we’ll have some Bible study together. 

Hi Gabriel, I will look forward to replying to your last post in a bit. Till next time…

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