Greg - 05 July 2009 08:16 PM

Protestant 101 - 05 July 2009 02:59 PM

It seems that you would rather follow Calvin than the Bible’s picture on the doctrine of salvation.

This is odd criticism coming from an Adventist with an extrabiblical “source of truth” in Ellen White, who was all over the map on the doctrine of salvation. It is one thing to assert that you hold the biblical doctrine of salvation but another thing for this assertion to be backed by evidence. The only evidence you’ve provided so far is that you disagree with the Protestant position on justification by faith alone and stand squarely with the Roman Catholics in opposing it.

Protestant 101 - 05 July 2009 02:59 PM

Your view is so limited that no one could possibly be saved; except by your narrow say-so.

Where did Gabriel claim to have the power to decide who was saved? Please stop bearing false witness (again). His point was that anyone who insists on a faith + works formula for salvation is on perilous ground. The apostle Paul’s warning in Galatians 1:8-9 is enough for us to see that anyone who believes in a different gospel than the one he preached is accursed. If you have a problem with this, your argument is with Paul, not with Gabriel.

Protestant 101 - 05 July 2009 02:59 PM

As far as I can see, you have misrepresented both The Reformers, and Seventh-day Adventists on this web site…

Ironic comment, especially coming from someone who can’t endorse justification by faith alone. Please show me a Protestant reformer who shared your position and I might take you seriously. You continue to assert that we are misrepresenting Adventists, but your posts keep confirming that we are not. By denying the Protestant doctrine of justification by faith alone, you cannot be Protestant (even if you’d like to name yourself as such) and you do need to hear the gospel, just like the Roman Catholics who anathemetize it. Repent and trust in Jesus alone for your salvation, because even your good works are like filthy rags and will only condemn you in the judgment.

“And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness...” (Romans 4:5)

Greg

Would you please just give me a list of the texts that you feel say we are “saved by faith alone?”

Luke 18:9-14 - The tax collector, a sinner who repented and asked for God’s mercy was justified, not the Pharisee who had good works.
Luke 23:43 - How could the thief on the cross be promised salvation if he had yet to perform a meritorious work?
John 5:24 - Whoever trusts in Jesus (without adding any righteous works) has passed from death to life.
Romans 3:21-28 - Justification is by faith and apart from works of the law.
Romans 4:4-5 - The one who does not work but believes in Jesus is justified.
Romans 4:9-11 - Abraham was counted righteous before his circumcision, by faith (before he performed even one work for God).
Romans 9:30-32 - The Gentiles attained righteousness not by working for it but by having faith, while Jews who worked for their salvation did not attain it.
Romans 11:5-6 - The remnant of believers is chosen by grace, not because of their works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Galatians 2:16 - A person is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus.
Galatians 2:21 - If righteousness came through works of the law, Christ died for no purpose.
Galatians 3:10 - Those who rely on works of the law are under a curse.
Galatians 3:11-12 - No one is justified by works of the law; the law is not of faith.
Philippians 3:9 - Righteousness comes from God and depends on faith, not on works of the law.
2 Timothy 1:8-9 - God saves us not because of our works, but because of his grace.
Titus 3:5 - We are saved not because of our righteous works, but because of God’s mercy.

In addition (with some overlap):

Justfication
G1347 δικαίωσις dikaiōsis
Thayer Definition:
1) the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him
2) abjuring to be righteous, justification
Part of Speech: noun feminine

Rom 4:25 He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.

Rom 5:16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.

Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Justified Justify Justifier
G1344 δικαιόω dikaioō
Thayer Definition:
1) to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
Part of Speech: verb

Rom 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Rom 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

1Co 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Gal 3:11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”

Gal 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Tit 3:7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Justify
Gal 3:8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.”

Justifier
Rom 3:26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Justifying
(ALT) Rom 3:26 for a demonstration of His righteousness in the present time, for Him to be righteous and justifying the [one] [or, declaring the [one] righteous] [who has] faith in Jesus.

(ALT) Rom 4:5 But to the one not working, but [who] believes on the One justifying the impious [or, trusts in the One declaring the godless righteous], his faith is accounted for
righteousness.

Romans 4:5 (English Standard Version) And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Gal 3:8 Now the Scripture having foreseen that God justifies [or, declares righteous] the nations by faith, proclaimed the Gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying], “All the nations will be blessed in you.” [Gen 12:3]

(ALT) Rom 8:33 Who will bring a charge against [the] chosen ones of God? God [is] the One justifying [or, declaring righteous].

Romans 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect [when it is] God Who justifies [that is, Who puts us in right relation to Himself? Who shall come forward and accuse or impeach those whom God has chosen? Will God, Who acquits us?]

John Douglas

Also:

Mar 16:16 “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luk 7:50 And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Joh 10:9 “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

Act 2:21 ‘AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.’

Act 15:11 “But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”

Act 16:30-31 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” (31) They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Rom 10:13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Tit 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

1Co 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Heb 7:25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

John Douglas

Jonvil posted this:

Justfication
G1347 δικαίωσις dikaiōsis
Thayer Definition:
1) the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him
2) abjuring to be righteous, justification
Part of Speech: noun feminine
---------------------------------------------------------------

For many centuries the early chuch fathers believed that the latin form of the word justification meant ”TO MAKE RIGHTEOUS”

However, it was the Roman Catholic scholar Erasmus who fought Martin Luther on the subject of monergistic regeneration, agreed with Luther and the Reformers that the greek word meant ”TO DECLARE RIGHTEOUS”

This was the turning point of the Reformation. It makes all the difference in the world. This is why there are two different gospels:

1.  Romanism and traditional SDA beleve that justification is a process which takes a lifetime of the Holy Spirit’s work making us righteous, and thus believeing that it is the character formed in us which makes us fit for heaven. In RCC, if that character isn’t formed, then people go to purgatory, but in SDA, this means you cannot pass the Investigative Judgment, and thus are lost for eternity.

2 True Christianity, which the Reformers taught had the proper translation of the Greek word “justification”, which means that the moment a sinner comes to faith in Christ, he is declared by the Lord of Heaven to be righteous, and at that moment will be assured of salvation. As Desmond Ford says, this salvation can never be lost as long as a person believes and is trusting Christ for salvation.  Luther and Calvin taught that God will continue to keep the sinner saved by His continung grace and power. Our salvation is not based on how far we progress in sanctification, as is true in RCC and SDA.

Praise God for the Good News which is the true gospel!

Soli Deo Gloria ! (To God Alone be the Glory)

Stan

GABRIEL PROKSCH’S post, SANCTUARY - TWO PERSPECTIVES @ http://www.forthegospel.org/forum/viewthread/284/P0/

“What I can do at this present is to post parts of a long letter written by a former Conference President, R. A. Grieve, who in this letter which explains the reasons for his removal from office, covers a lot of ground. It’s the best introduction I’ve seen regarding the difference between the Protestant view of justification and the SDA view from the perspective of two different understandings of the sanctuary. This letter was instrumental in helping me see the radical difference between the SDA sanctuary paradigm and the Protestant sanctuary interpretation.”

Is worth revisiting

Thanks for the replies all.  Time is too limited for me to respond the way I’d like but I wanted you to know I do read all responses.  I won’t respond too much to some of the digression parts of the above posts, however, I appreciate Jonvils posts where he explored “Justified, Just and Justifier” Etc. Some of those are my favorite texts.  I am sorry you feel that some of these contradict Adventist doctrines; however, I feel that they will be good to discuss.  What I will be most interested to discuss first though is Greg’s post; I think it’s post #32 where he posted some texts in response to my request of a list of texts which actually come out and say we are “saved by faith alone.”

I do not understand many of those texts in the way in which he seems to have tried to relate them to me; therefore, in my next post here; I will begin the process of explaining what I am thinking on that issue.

At the crux of “Reformation Theology” is a desire to get away from the bondage of Roman Catholic dogmas and practices, and this is something we likely have in common - although some here might not want to admit we have anything in common. Till next time; let us spend a little time IN THE GARDEN WITH JESUS

Greg - 06 July 2009 09:54 PM

Luke 18:9-14 - The tax collector, a sinner who repented and asked for God’s mercy was justified, not the Pharisee who had good works.
Luke 23:43 - How could the thief on the cross be promised salvation if he had yet to perform a meritorious work?
John 5:24 - Whoever trusts in Jesus (without adding any righteous works) has passed from death to life.
Romans 3:21-28 - Justification is by faith and apart from works of the law.
Romans 4:4-5 - The one who does not work but believes in Jesus is justified.
Romans 4:9-11 - Abraham was counted righteous before his circumcision, by faith (before he performed even one work for God).
Romans 9:30-32 - The Gentiles attained righteousness not by working for it but by having faith, while Jews who worked for their salvation did not attain it.
Romans 11:5-6 - The remnant of believers is chosen by grace, not because of their works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Galatians 2:16 - A person is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus.
Galatians 2:21 - If righteousness came through works of the law, Christ died for no purpose.
Galatians 3:10 - Those who rely on works of the law are under a curse.
Galatians 3:11-12 - No one is justified by works of the law; the law is not of faith.
Philippians 3:9 - Righteousness comes from God and depends on faith, not on works of the law.
2 Timothy 1:8-9 - God saves us not because of our works, but because of his grace.
Titus 3:5 - We are saved not because of our righteous works, but because of God’s mercy.

Hello Greg

I think for now; I will keep this to a short post.  I have thought about a number of ways to respond to this post you made; but I think that it would be best to go slowly so I will just ask a quick question for now if I may?

Which of the above texts actually say that we are “saved by faith alone?”

Protestant 101 - 11 July 2009 10:17 PM

Which of the above texts actually say that we are “saved by faith alone?”

Which of the above texts say that we are saved by faith plus anything else? Answer: none.

Greg - 11 July 2009 10:43 PM

Protestant 101 - 11 July 2009 10:17 PM

Which of the above texts actually say that we are “saved by faith alone?”

Which of the above texts say that we are saved by faith plus anything else? Answer: none.

In other words Greg; none of them say what you claim?  My statement was/is that these texts you provided do not say that we are “saved by faith alone.” Can you prove otherwise?

Protestant 101 - 11 July 2009 11:24 PM

In other words Greg; none of them say whay you claim?  My statement was/is that these texts you provided do not say that we are “saved by faith alone.” Can you prove otherwise?

The texts give us no reason to believe that anything other than faith in Jesus Christ saves us, thus leaving us with “faith alone”. Faith + nothing = faith alone.

Now if you would like to argue that the texts say we are saved by faith plus something else, you are welcome to do so, but I’d like to see the evidence.

Greg

Greg - 11 July 2009 11:36 PM

Protestant 101 - 11 July 2009 11:24 PM

In other words Greg; none of them say whay you claim?  My statement was/is that these texts you provided do not say that we are “saved by faith alone.” Can you prove otherwise?

The texts give us no reason to believe that anything other than faith in Jesus Christ saves us, thus leaving us with “faith alone”. Faith + nothing = faith alone.

Now if you would like to argue that the texts say we are saved by faith plus something else, you are welcome to do so, but I’d like to see the evidence.

Greg

But we are not saved by “faith.” “Faith” is not our Savior.  Jesus is John 1:29.  And nowhere does the Bible say faith is to be “alone.” In fact; in many places, it suggests the opposite: James 2:17

It is also worth noting that you have Calvin as your non-Biblical source so who are you to talk about Adventists or anyone else on that score?

Protestant 101 - 11 July 2009 11:59 PM

But we are not saved by “faith.” “Faith” is not our Savior.  Jesus is John 1:29.

I did not create a dichotomy between faith and faith in Jesus, so please don’t accuse me of such.

Protestant 101 - 11 July 2009 11:59 PM

And nowhere does the Bible say faith is to be “alone.” In fact; in many places, it suggests the opposite: James 2:17

So is this where you will finally confess that you are saved by faith plus your works?

Protestant 101 - 11 July 2009 11:59 PM

It is also worth noting that you have Calvin as your non-Biblical source so who are you to talk about Adventists or anyone else on that score?

It is worth noting that I have not quoted Calvin once to you on this thread, but I have quoted the Bible alone.

Greg

Greg - 12 July 2009 12:10 AM

Protestant 101 - 11 July 2009 11:59 PM

But we are not saved by “faith.” “Faith” is not our Savior.  Jesus is John 1:29.

I did not create a dichotomy between faith and faith in Jesus, so please don’t accuse me of such.

Protestant 101 - 11 July 2009 11:59 PM

And nowhere does the Bible say faith is to be “alone.” In fact; in many places, it suggests the opposite: James 2:17

So is this where you will finally confess that you are saved by faith plus your works?

Protestant 101 - 11 July 2009 11:59 PM

It is also worth noting that you have Calvin as your non-Biblical source so who are you to talk about Adventists or anyone else on that score?

It is worth noting that I have not quoted Calvin once to you on this thread, but I have quoted the Bible alone.

Greg

No. It’s not worth noting that you did or did not quote Calvin to me in this thread. You quote him all over the place on this web site; you show a very obvious dependence upon his say so.  It is quite fitting for me to point this out here as we are discussing Reformation Theology, and Calvin is who this site, which you are a part of, openly consults and proclaims as arbiter of doctrine.  Case in point:  Calvin On Fellowship These are your words, NOT MINE:

I came across this quote from John Calvin today and thought it was remarkable. Calvinists are commonly portrayed as Christians who are primarily interested in themselves because they are God’s “elect”, but here we see that Calvin’s concern was not limited to any small group of people, but rather all who dwell on earth. While Calvin emphasizes praying for and building up the household of faith, he encourages us to embrace those who are outside our theological boundaries because we do not know, as he says, “what God has determined concerning them”.

Just as you have tried, to accuse me with Ellen White, you have an extra-Biblical source in Calvinism; and the icing on your little “cake” here is that you conveniently leave out the quotes by Calvin which clearly work against Christ, and Him crucified.

Greg - 11 July 2009 10:43 PM

Protestant 101 - 11 July 2009 10:17 PM

Which of the above texts actually say that we are “saved by faith alone?”

Which of the above texts say that we are saved by faith plus anything else? Answer: none.

Greg; now you are the one who needs to re-read my posts.  I did not say that we are saved by faith plus something else.  I am saying that we are saved by Jesus and NOTHINING else.  Do you think you and Calvin could prove me wrong on that?

You are the one saying we need something other than Jesus for salvation; not me.  Which is your Savior, “faith alone” or Jesus?  And it’s not me thats saying faith can’t be alone; it’s in the Bible.  James 2:17