Stan Ermshar - 27 February 2010 07:33 PM

Welcome Brito to 4TG.

Since you are from Brazil, did you know or ever hear of my grandfather, Leo B Halliwell, who was a missionary on the Amazon river for 27 years piloting the “Luzeiro” boats?

Stan

Oh yes, he is an Adventist hero for Brazilians who know his story. I read some of his adventures and there was at least a book telling his and his wife’s experiences in the jungle up there. I dream of one day being able to visit the region, which for someone raised in the southeast of the country is tantamount to visiting Alaska for an Alabamian.

Welcome Brito,

I’m a friend of Stan despite our differences on this subject and at some points our friendship was tested by it. Looking back my perception is that the issue of eternal or limited in duration punishment is not directly related with the texts presented that deal directly with the subject but rather with our opinion of what fits God’s holiness and justice, an opinion formed from another biblical data. To a certain degree the texts that deal directly with this subject doesn’t bear to much weight in the dialogue.  The real differences lay in some other areas, and from what I learned in the interaction, next time when I’ll consider useful to have a conversation on the subject I’ll try a different approach. After all, if somebody feels that an infinite amount of punishment doesn’t match justly with the real guilt of sin, he will perceive a God who’s inflicting such punishment by definition unjust.

Gabriel

hi, i am bruce a newbie in this forum. this is really a lot of information here. i am glad to be part of this forum.

Bruce

bruce101 - 14 March 2010 11:18 PM

hi, i am bruce a newbie in this forum. this is really a lot of information here. i am glad to be part of this forum.

Bruce
propellerhead reason

Hi Bruce and welcome.

I am by nature not a debater so I just ‘listen’ and learn, having found this forum to be quite ‘thought’ challenging. The pros and cons generally are civil and well presented and have driven me to in-depth study of the Scriptures.

While I have not adopted dogmatic positions on what I consider to be secondary issues (state of the dead, the nature and duration of ‘Hell’ ...), thanks to this forum I am quite immovable re:

‘Saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone’.

John Douglas

Regarding this subject, I prepared a study that was even published in the Adventist Review, with a few editorial changes. But the idea is to demonstrate 10 points by which it is made clear the superiority of the holistic view of man’s nature and destiny, in comparison to the popular belief in the immortality of the soul:

10 TOPICS THAT DEMONSTRATE THE SUPERIORITY OF THE HOLISTIC VIEW OF HUMAN NATURE OVER THE DUALISTIC VIEW

The dualistic view of the human nature and destiny (belief in the immortality of the soul) cannot be considered superior in any way to the holistic understanding of these themes. We would challenge the advocates of that position to present what superior aspects they could find in their understanding of the question in comparison with the enumeration that we present below of items in which one can perceive the indisputable superiority of the holistic view over the understanding of immortality of the soul.

1.) Much more Christ-centered. The holistic understanding stresses that only in Christ we have hope of obtaining immortality, at the resurrection of the just ones, not being something we already possess inherently in the form of an immortal soul. “He who has the Son has the life” (cf. John 5:28, 29; 1 John 5:12; 1 Corinthians 15:51-54).

2.) Greater foundation on the basic doctrine of righteousness by faith. There is only one who is good, Jesus said (see Mat. 19:17). In an absolute sense only God is good, while we are infinitely far from possessing goodness of our own. The holistic vision highlights that as we have no justice in ourselves by which to appear before the Supreme Judge to obtain approval (see Isaiah 64:6), we also don’t have inherently the gift of immortality, which only belongs to God (1 Timothy 1:17; 6:16) and is granted to us through the gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 1:10).

3.) Greater emphasis and valuation of the theme of Christ’s advent. For those who believe in the immortality of the soul the theme of Christ’s second coming doesn’t receive the same importance, for, in practical terms, such event becomes irrelevant, since the eternal inheritance occurs at death. This explains the emphasis on the second advent and the conclusion of the evangelization work among Seventh-day Adventists by every means possible (radio, TV, literature, personal witnessing, public lectures, health and social assistance). The fulfillment of Matthew 24:14 is the great preoccupation and motivation of the SDA Church, which has the largest number of penetrated lands and proportionally the one of the largest number of missionaries among all those who are engaged in the task of world evangelization.

4.) Greater consistency with the theme of each one’s judgment. Those who believe in the immortality of the soul turn the theme of the final judgment into a non-sense thing. Why and what for will a final judgment be set, since people at their death go directly to their final destination—saved ones to “the glory”, lost ones to a site of tortures or, at least, a place not agreeable at all, where they will be expecting a punishment already defined?

5.) No identification with pagan beliefs. The identification of all pagan peoples with dualistic concepts demonstrates the superiority of the holistic view. Nobody is capable of indicating at least one pagan people that has renounced to belief in souls and spirits of people (or even of animals and things such as lakes, rivers, forests, volcanos) to believe in the final resurrection as the only means to return to existence after death, a point even highlighted in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, one of the foundations of the dualistic view (cf. Luke 16:31).

6.) Better defense against dangerous doctrines. The holistic view is the best protection and antidote against subtle errors that exist or has come to existence in these last times, such as spiritualism, Catholic doctrines as the purgatory and intercession of the saints, Mormonism, New Age, Eastern religions, etc., especially in the face of Christ’s and Paul’s warnings regarding the growing deceits of the final times (Matthew 24:24; 2 Timothy 3:1-5).

7.) Higher estimation of the divine love and justice. The vision of God’s justice and love is harmed by the belief in an eternally burning hell, with punishments totally out of proportion with the impenitent ones’ guilt. According to the holistic view, the pay will be proportional to the guilt and it will be liquidated, not made eternal (Matthew 5:26 and 18:30).

8.) Greater consistency with the meaning of basic Bible terms. Even though in the Bible language there are many mentions to “soul” and “spirit”, the Scriptures don’t authorize any concept of either an immortal “soul” or “spirit”. Besides informing us that only God is possessor of immortality, the Bible states that the soul can die (Ezekiel 18:4; James 5:20), not the opposite of it.

9.) Greater valuation of bodily health. It is well known that the Christians who maintain the dualistic understanding of human nature conceptualize the present life dualistically. They tend to consider the cultivation of the soul as more important than the care of the body. The physical well being of the body is often intentionally ignored, or even suppressed. That explains the holistic preoccupation of Seventh-day Adventists with health and the emphasis on the care of the body as “temple of the Holy Spirit”, to be wholly consecrated to the Lord (1 Corinthians 3: 16, 17).

10.) A more mature and real picture of the world to come. The popular notion of an eternal paradise, where glorified souls will spend eternity wearing white robes, playing harps, sailing on clouds and drinking the nectar of gods is alien to the Scriptures. The Bible speaks of the resurrected redeemed ones dwelling on this planet, that has been purified and transformed, turned into a perfect world at the second coming of the Lord (2 Peter 3:11-13; Romans 8:19-25; Revelation 21:1). The “new heavens and new Earth” (Isaiah 65:17) are not a remote and inconsequent spiritual retreat in some corner of the Universe. Rather, they are the present heavens and Earth renewed back to its original perfection.

Azenilto Brito - 13 August 2010 11:25 AM

6.) Better defense against dangerous doctrines. The holistic view is the best protection and antidote against subtle errors that exist or has come to existence in these last times

How about the not-so-subtle error that SDA’s commit when they teach that Satan is their scapegoat?

You are helpless to explain how any “holistic view” has protected you from this error.

Being that the Day of Atonement in Lev 16 is part of the Law, of course SDA’s must be talking only of themselves and their doctrines of demons when they claim Satan was one of their “realities” “good things that were to come”!

It is a day of sabbath rest, and you must deny yourselves—Lev 16:31

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.  These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Col 2

“The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves.” Hebrews 10

Not sure how valuable any spiritual discussion with an SDA is, when they teach such dangerous things like Satan being a good thing to come!

And pretend to tell true Christians how to protect and antidote against SDA garbage doctrines.

It’s typical of those who can’t answer refutations to their cherished beliefs to resort to sophistry, employing the tactics of CHANGING THE FOCUS OF THE SUBJECT UNDER DISCUSSION. The discussions here have nothing to do with law and Sabbath, which have been extensively discussed in other topics.

Anyway, how about this reflection on a distorted Bible text?

* Matthew 22:32: “’I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’”. He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

Luke presents the same episode of Jesus’ dialogue with the Sadducees in a more complete fashion. He ends it saying: “But in the account of the bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive”. Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!” And no one dared to ask him any more questions. (Luke 20:37-40).

The emphasis is not on immortality of the soul, but on RESURRECTION! The words are very clear —“that the dead rise. . .” (vs. 37). Now, the advocates of the immortality of the soul theory would be absolutely right if Jesus had said: “And that the dead ones go to heaven with their souls. . .”. But that was not what He said!

Moreover, the discussion itself begins like this: “Some of the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection. . .” (vs. 27). In the sequence of the Sadducees talk, the same emphasis can be seen: “Now then, at the resurrection whose wife [of the seven dead brothers] will she be. . .?” (vs. 33).

And the words of Christ at certain point are noteworthy: “. . . but those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead. . .” (vs. 35).

It’s very much clear that along the entire discussion there isn’t the least hint for any notion of immortality of the soul. The Sadducees didn’t ask: “And when these seven brothers were passing away and their immortal souls get into heaven. . .” One can realize that the focus lies totally on the resurrection of the dead?

And a relevant detail should be noticed, that has to do with the global understanding of the discussion carried out: Jesus refers to those who will be worthy of “taking part in that age [the end of the centuries] AND IN THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD”.

This passage, then, considered globally, instead of favoring the notion of immortality of the soul is exactly a confirmation of the life eternal expectation, the coming age, occurring through the resurrection of the dead! In this context Christ concludes the dialogue referring to Moses, as He says: “even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’”, then He adds, “He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive”.

And why for Him all are alive? For having an “immortal soul”, or for resurrecting from the dead? What is the context? What is the emphasis? What is the logical meaning, reading the entire record of the debates and their wrap up?

Conclusion: The episode of Christ with the Sadducees respecting the resurrection of the seven brothers and the woman who supposedly becomes widow of one after another, far from proving the immortality of the soul idea, focuses on the resurrection of the dead, associated with reaching the “coming age”. That was so clear that the Sadducees, who intended to trap Jesus in a contradiction, ended up complimenting Him (“Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!” And no one dared to ask him any more questions”). It’s interesting that it was not the first time that this came to pass—those who wanted to create a pretext to catch Jesus in error end up complimenting Him (see Mark 12:34). 

Thus, to resort to Christ’s dialogue with the Jewish leader with the expression, “He [God] is not God of the dead, but of the living” to prove the immortality of the soul is, in reality, an interpretative “shot” that backfires.

Yes Az,

It is clear that this verse is about the resurrection. This is what the Sadducees rejected, and this is the audience and the topic that Jesus is addressing here. Traditionalists will desperately grab on to the phrase, ‘God is not the God of the dead, but of the living’ and assume that those who have died must still be alive, ignoring the context and assuming the inherent immortality of the soul. Sadly this is only one of many verses the traditionalist does this on.

It amazes me how anti-SDAs can criticize SDA exegesis on the Daniel 8:14 but show an example of such gross eisegesis of verses such as this one and 2 Corinthians 5:8 (also about resurrection of the body), meanwhile they have the gall to trumpet that they have the ‘truth’ on this matter and our interpretations are ‘heretical’.

guibox - 14 May 2011 07:22 AM

It amazes me how anti-SDAs can criticize SDA exegesis on the Daniel 8:14 but show an example of such gross eisegesis of verses such as this one and 2 Corinthians 5:8 (also about resurrection of the body), meanwhile they have the gall to trumpet that they have the ‘truth’ on this matter and our interpretations are ‘heretical’.

8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

How is the true Christian being disobedient to state with Paul that he would RATHER be away and at home?

It is a lie to put dishonest arguments in your opponents mouths, you know.

And that makes you what sort of LAW keeper again?

Do you find untruth in this scripture?

And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus—Eph 2

Azenilto Brito - 14 May 2011 02:04 AM

It’s typical of those who can’t answer refutations to their cherished beliefs to resort to sophistry, employing the tactics of CHANGING THE FOCUS OF THE SUBJECT UNDER DISCUSSION. The discussions here have nothing to do with law and Sabbath, which have been extensively discussed in other topics.

You haven’t refuted much of anything as long as true Christians can see that SDA’s actually teach that Satan is a good thing to come, for SDA’s!

What kind of sophistry do SDA’s use to claim that Satan is their scapegoat?? Pure deceivableness, perhaps?

They should be humiliated into the dust that they have blundered into such an error!

And as long as SDA think Satan is a good thing to come (for them), there shall be no common focus between these children of the devil and true Christians.

Plus, isn’t it very curious that SDA, who blackest darkness is reserved for, are all atwitter about the state of the dead?

True Christians have nothing to worry about!

SDA (and other cults) have this to worry about:

Every word of God is flawless;
he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
Do not add to his words,
or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.

15 Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matt 7

False prophets would likely tamper with Gods flawless word at Daniel 8:14 in the commission of rebellious timesetting, wouldn’t you agree? That would prove them liars, wouldn’t it?

Azenilto Brito - 14 May 2011 02:04 AM

an interpretative “shot” that backfires.

Yes, you are certainly one to be concerned with backfires!

Tampering with Daniel 8 merely proves you a liar. And no commandment keeper whatsoever.

How are liars any different than false teachers and false prophets? Remind me again?

15 Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matt 7

False prophets would likely tamper with Gods flawless word at Daniel 8:14 in the commission of rebellious timesetting, wouldn’t you agree?

The righteous will be glad when they are avenged, when they dip their feet in the blood of the wicked. Psalm 58