“Finally brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue and if there be any praise, think on these things.” Phil. 4:8

I have serious differences with Adventism, Calvinism, Armenianism, cultism.  I have no differences with Paul or John or the synopic Gospels. Let us be for the Gospel. The Deacon. 

AMEN Deacon, Amen.

Tom (Deacon) and Steve, I have a reply to your comments, but since it moves this thread off topic, I posted it here.

Greg

I apologize if I am digressing too far from the topic, but Greg, you say:

“For example, there was a time on FAF when accusations of sexual impropriety were leveled against Morris Venden, but these had already been conclusively disproved elsewhere. By allowing this gossip to proceed unchecked on FAF, the rumors only gained greater momentum and of course, Venden’s name was needlessly dragged through the mud. Steve, this forum remains wide open to prevent such “gossip” from ever occurring, but you seem to be missing the logic of this.”

Can you please give me a link that will bear out what you assert, that the charges against Morris Venden have been conclusively disproved?  I’ve seen no hint of this any where else.  Have you read what the Standish brothers have to say about the case?  So Claudia Burrow’s book is just one big falsehood?  From what I’ve read from several sources there was a cover up, Morris Venden was not forthcoming, and refused to submit to a lie detector test and has been most unwilling to be open and above board about the matter.

On the contrary his accusser has submitted to seven lie detector tests by a polygraph examiner with experience in administering polygraph examination to over 14,000, and absolutely passed all her tests.

If Morris Venden was falsely charged, and his name has been cleared and the charges have been proved to be mere gossip, I’d sincerely like to know the truth.

Hi Johnny,

First of all welcome to 4TG. Second, I am not an expert in the charges leveled against Morris Venden, but I was basing my comments on the allegations about Venden’s anatomy and the subsequent examination and statement of his physician which refuted the charges. Third, I just went to the web page you linked and found The Truth About Morris Venden - Part Two. It appears that whoever put this together was trying to portray Venden in the most uncharitable light possible in an effort to demonstrate the “omega apostasy” of Adventism. What we have here is the extreme right wing of the Adventist church which has always been opposed to justification by faith alone (known in Adventism as “righteousness by faith"). They have seized on this story to discredit Venden’s message, since he was one of the Adventist pastors who came closest to preaching the very thing they consider heresy. They have leveled the charge that Venden created a “new theology” to support his sinful habits, but in the process (from what I can see in my limited reading of their work), they have proposed that sinners are not saved by God’s grace alone, but by grace mixed with human effort to maintain sinless perfection. While I have not had time to go over all of their material, I think their opposition to the biblical gospel goes a long way toward discrediting their allegations against Venden.

If anyone knows anything else about this and is more knowledgeable, feel free to post what you know.

Greg

Greg, thank you very much for the welcome.

I’m not an expert either on the charges against Morris Venden years ago, but re the issue of his anatomy, it seemed this issue was addressed at that link, mainly that Mrs. Burrow did not have knowledge of the correct terminology for what she was describing as abnormal.  The overall charges, in my opinion, seemed in too great detail and too substantial to be mere gossip or something put together to discredit Venden’s teachings.  However, I understand the source on which you were basing your comments now and appreciate very much your response.  I’m sincerely trying to understand this conflict and turmoil in the church over justification by faith. 

In the mid-1980’s a concerned sister gave my alcoholic father several of Morris Venden’s books.  (I can talk personally because I’m using a last name alias here.) My father was intelligent and had an analytical mind.  He marked up the Venden books with highlighting and underlining.  It concerned me when I saw that he would go on movingly about Jesus love for him, yet he kept right on drinking.  He would tell me that Jesus would eventually take care of it and he didn’t need to have any concern about it.  I knew that the Bible says, be not deceived, the drunkard shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.  Alarmed at his complacency I asked him at one point, “Dad, what if Jesus was coming right now?” Inebriated and with somewhat slurred speech, he raised his arms upward and said he would welcome Him and exclaim, “Oh Jesus!”

For the first time in my life I began reading Venden and saw right off sentiments in his books that, in my opinion, were not in harmony with either the Bible or Ellen White.  I knew my father was deceived and set about to try and reason with him on these issues.  My father died in the early 1990’s and I have a hope that he may be saved, a brand plucked from the burning, but I’ve had a distrust of Morris Venden’s writings ever since.

Recently when I over heard two of my sisters speaking fondly of Venden I decided to research him on the net.  Thus I’ve learned about this so-called New Theology, the decade’s long conflict in the church over these issues, and about this very web site as well. 

It is all quite overwhelming at times.  On one hand, there’s Russell and Colin Standish emphatically stating:

“The ‘new theology’ is a worldwide problem.  It has been used by Satan in an endeavor to derail God’s remnant church.  We have confidence in the testimony of Ellen White that he will not succeed, but, sadly, a huge number of God’s people will be lost as a result of the acceptance of this unscriptural theology.” (Deceptions of the New Theology, p. 21.)

AND

“No trace of the new theology views is to be found in the 1888 message.”
(Deceptions of the New Theology, p. 26.)

BUT on the other hand there’s others such as yourself who seem to be saying, no, it’s “the extreme right wing of the Adventist church which has always been opposed to justification by faith alone (known in Adventism as ‘righteousness by faith’) ,” inferring that it is Morris Venden who is in full harmony with the Jones’s and Waggoner’s 1888 messages on Righteousness by Faith.

Personally, I just want the truth and, believe it or not, am trying sincerely to keep an open mind re Morris Venden.  As I see all this controversy in the church, I cherish more than ever that Bible text that says, “He knoweth them that are His.” Having that close, happy and personal relationship with Jesus is our only hope more than ever I’m sure you know as well as I.

I’ve always loved this Ellen White statement:

“They say, they say, they say.” You just put the “They says” right away from you. Watch, saith the Lord, to hear what He will say. You look to the Lord, and don’t you look to any human power and get their mind, for they are nothing but human, they are nothing but evil; but you just look to the Lord God of Israel, and He will give you understanding, and He will give you knowledge.  But you are not to lean your helpless soul on any other human being. You have got a character to form for your own individual self, and that character God has given every encouragement should be after God’s order. 
---- Spalding Megan Collection, p. 171.

Thank you very much for hearing me out!

Johnny

Johnny, I totally hear where you are coming from and I thank you for sharing your story with me. Some will be shocked, but I agree with what Ellen White wrote here and I encourage you to lean completely on the Lord Jesus Christ and not on anything that the trouble-makers in the Adventist church are saying. This also goes for Ellen White’s writings and anything that is said on this website. It is all secondary to what the Bible promises and what you’ve already quoted above. Jesus really does know those who are his (John 10:14) and nobody can pluck them out of his hands (John 10:28).

By the way, I sat in Venden’s congregation at Azure Hills Church for a few years. I can say that he had a handle on the greatest truth in all of Scripture—that Jesus came to give his life for sinners, not for the self-righteous. Remember Jesus’ parable about the tax collector and the Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14)? The tax collector knew the depth of his sin and had nothing good to offer God, other than to cry out for mercy. The Pharisee, on the other hand, thanked God for making him “not like other men” who were miserable sinners. Please notice the moral of Jesus’ story: “I tell you, this man [the tax collector] went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

The question always comes up, but what about sanctification? What about good works? If you talk too much about grace, won’t it give people a “license to sin”? This is where I suspect you are having difficulty now, particularly with reflecting on your father’s lifestyle choices. The bottom line as that “he who began a good work in you will see it to completion” (Philippians 1:6). Jesus saves us “while we were yet sinners” (Romans 5:8) and he continues to work in us to sanctify us throughout our lives. This does not mean there will ever be a point in our life where we can say “I’ve arrived—I’m without sin”, but we will see evidence that Jesus is working in us. From what you’ve told me, I can’t say that the evidence was lacking in your father’s life. He may have had a poor understanding of what God was calling him to do, but if he believed on Jesus Christ with the faith of a child, he will be saved (Acts 16:31, Romans 10:8-13).

There’s more to say, but that’s all I have time for at the moment. If you’d like to read more about the tension between sanctification and justification, please check out this short article entitled Guilt, Grace & Gratitude.

Thanks again for sharing with us, and I hope and pray you will find your way through the confusion you’ve described.

Blessings in Christ,

Greg

Greg, thank you for responding.  You are welcome to, but I do not characterize myself as confused.  I just am searching for a greater understanding.  The sources of truth I look to, the Scriptures first and foremost and the Spirit of Propohecy secondly have never once let me down. 

Greg, I am not familiar with this site and do not understand just where you all are coming from.  For example, I do not know what you mean by “trouble-makers in the Adventist church.” I suppose that it’s usually those with whom we disagree, who have differing viewpoints, that are the troublemakers.

I told you my little story with my father because I wanted any readers to realize that I’ve come by my opinions of Morris Venden’s teachings honestly and was totally ignorant of these various factions, this New Theology issue, and many other aspects of this controversy.

In my previous post I mentioned that I came across sentiments in Morris Venden’s books that, in my opinion, were not in harmony with either the Bible or Ellen White.  I’d like to explain.

For example, on page 71 of “Salvation by Faith and your Will,” Venden says,

“God does expect us to engage in this battle [the fight of faith], but He does not expect us to fight sin.”

That is at odds with many Ellen White statements such as:

“Every Christian must stand on guard continually watching every avenue of the soul where Satan might find access.  He must pray for divine help AND AT THE SAME TIME resolutely resist every inclination to sin.” 5T 47 (emphasis supplied).

“The fact that Christ has conquered should inspire His followers with courage to fight manfully the battle against sin and Satan.” The Great Controversy, p. 510.

ANOTHER EXAMPLE:

Venden says:
“I’d like to remind you that overcoming is God’s department; it’s not yours. Obedience is God’s department. It comes by faith alone in Jesus Christ. It isn’t something we achieve; it’s something we receive. Victory isn’t something that we strive for, try for, or work hard to get” (Never Without An Intercessor, p. 99).

But the Word of God says:  “Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able” (Luke 13:24)

The Word of God throughout instructs us to OBEY and His biddings ARE ENABLINGS, are they not?

ONE MORE EXAMPLE: 

Venden says, “we can conclude that it is possible to have a relationship with God going on and to have a known sin going on in your life at the same time.” (How Jesus Treated People. p. 46.)

COMPARE this assertion with these Ellen White statements:

“If we regard iniquity in our hearts, if we cling to any known sin, the Lord will not hear us; but the prayer of the penitent, contrite soul is always accepted.” Steps to Christ, p. 95.  “We do not belong to Christ unless we are His wholly.” ST, December 20, 1905.  “ Every transgressor of God’s law is a sinner, and none can be sanctified while living in known sin. “ R&H;, March 8, 1881 par. 6.  “We are decided, whole-hearted Christians, or none at all.” 1T 126.  “God calls for complete and entire consecration, and anything short of this He will not accept.” 4T 544.  “Satan does not want anyone to see the necessity of an entire surrender to God.” 6T 92.  “If you cling to any besetting sin you will find the way too narrow for you to enter.” MB 139.

Greg, in my previous comments, I provided a number of Ellen White statements, but in reading your site further, especially “An Appeal to Seventh-day Adventists,” I see that you all do not have a lot of confidence in Ellen White.  You discourage confidence in her writings so readily, that I honestly wonder if you believe in her calling.

I don’t know you personally, Greg, nor you me --- we just met here online within the last two days, but may I say humbly that these put-downs of Mrs. White at this site are a red flag for me.  With all due respect, it tells me that you are on the wrong track.  Ellen White was a fallible human being with frailties and human failings common to us all, but called of the Lord and was wonderfully true to that divine calling.  In my humble opinion, you should be working with her, not at cross-purposes.

I’d like to tell you why when it comes to Ellen White, as I’ve often said to others, what I feel heart-and-soul is GRATITUDE.

I had a somewhat dark childhood at times.  At the age of ten years, my mother showed me a book of the Testimonies.  I began reading and those precious books made a deep impression on my young mind.  I resolved to go all the way with God.  I began seeking places daily, even hourly, where I could commune privately with the Most High.  During my freshman year at a Seventh-day Adventist boarding academy, I would make myself get up at 4 or 5 a.m. to pray to the Lord, or would head out to an alfalfa field close by, or up to the citrus grove to commune with Him.  Those were the happiest days of my life!  My face beamed with joy and happiness.  At the noon break, I often walked over to the cornfield to pray and after school I would often seek a spot out among the oak trees behind the school where I could talk out loud to the Lord.  There was an old, dilapidated two-room church a mile from the school on a dirt road where Ellen White had actually spoke.  The pews were still there in the mouse-infested building.  I’d go there and sit, imagining that day when Ellen White addressed the congregation from the pulpit still there.  I can not tell you the joys I experienced.  Often I’d leave there and walk out in nature close by just singing my heart out as the sun was setting.

My fellow students knew that I was having a wonderful closeness with the Lord.  One day the school principal came to the freshman class and asked the students to write down who they wanted to be the various class officers.  Later I was told that every freshman wrote down my name for “class minister.”

In later years, I was beguiled with earthly pleasures and backslid.  But I never forgot and the Lord kept working on me, convicting me, letting me have no real peace.  And I began retracing my steps back to the Lord.  It was very hard at times, but I would let nothing stop me.  As I see the doubt and darkness enveloping the church today, how thankful I am for those early years of consecration and communion with God!

When Walter Rea’s plagiarism charges came out, my faith never wavered for a moment!  As I wrote to Pastor William Fagal about ten years a go when he was working at the Ellen White estate, “Even if I knew that Ellen White had copied out every word in the Conflict of the Ages series, I would not doubt because I would know that only one with a gift of divine enlightenment, guidance and favor could have compiled books so abundant in wisdom and blessing!” He responded, “Johnny, I believe you have hit the nail on the head.”

A few years back I went through the writings of Ellen White and wrote down everything I could find that she said about the importance and supremacy of the Scriptures and that compilation is worth more than gold to me now!  It opened my eyes.  Later I found myself trapped on 10 acres that had a well for an entire year, and every attempt to escape that circumstance proved futile, so I read my Bible through carefully, cover to cover, three times within the year.  I fell in love with that Holy Book as never before.  I’d find myself weeping many a time at the love of God flowing through His Word and would sometimes literally kiss it reverently.

Others can put Ellen White down to their heart’s content, but I honestly know better.  Ellen White said that she was told she was to be a lesser light to point to the Greater Light, the Word of God, and that is EXACTLY, EXACTLY what her influence and inspired writings did for me!  I tremble for those, even in my own family, who besmirch her and cast aspersions on her.  They will find out they were fighting against God as verily as Aaron and Miriam did when they questioned Moses’ calling.

I see all those non-Adventist web sites heaping scorn on Ellen White and her calling, taking her words out of context, or uncovering something they perceive as a glaring fault, trying to make her look as crazy as they can.  Most of the time I ignore them, not willing to give that which is holy to dogs, but here and there, once in a great while, I will tell them:

“While you and many other sites try to discredit Ellen White in every way you can, what she predicted on the basis of Bible prophecy is gradually, step by step, coming to pass on a grand scale in front of the entire world!”

All this talk of Ellen White being infallible, she never made any such claim.  She was a humble woman with a close connection with the Most High God of heaven and earth and her burden ever was to exalt the Word of the living God!  Away with this Ellen White bashing!  The Pontiff of Rome will be at the White House within a few days.  The very end is upon us.  Let us humble our proud hearts and fall of the Rock and be broken.  I know this is surely what I personally need and am seeking. 

Lastly, I’d like to give these two Ellen White statements.  If there were no other evidences, these, in my humble opinion, prove that her calling was absolutely genuine and true:

Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don’t you never quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don’t you give a rap any more what “Sister White said"-- “Sister White said this,” and “Sister White said that,” and “Sister White said the other thing.” But say, “Thus saith the Lord God of Israel,” and then you do just what the Lord God of Israel does, and what He says. 
--- The Spalding & Magan Collection, page 167.

When you make the Bible your food, your meat, and your drink, when you make its principles the elements of your character, you will know better how to receive counsel from God. I exalt the precious Word before you today. Do not repeat what I have said, saying, “Sister White said this,” and “Sister White said that.” Find out what the Lord God of Israel says, and then do what He commands.
--- Manuscript 43, 1901.

Greg - 29 March 2008 07:10 AM

Hi Johnny,

First of all welcome to 4TG. Second, I am not an expert in the charges leveled against Morris Venden, but I was basing my comments on the allegations about Venden’s anatomy and the subsequent examination and statement of his physician which refuted the charges. Third, I just went to the web page you linked and found The Truth About Morris Venden - Part Two. It appears that whoever put this together was trying to portray Venden in the most uncharitable light possible in an effort to demonstrate the “omega apostasy” of Adventism. What we have here is the extreme right wing of the Adventist church which has always been opposed to justification by faith alone (known in Adventism as “righteousness by faith"). They have seized on this story to discredit Venden’s message, since he was one of the Adventist pastors who came closest to preaching the very thing they consider heresy. They have leveled the charge that Venden created a “new theology” to support his sinful habits, but in the process (from what I can see in my limited reading of their work), they have proposed that sinners are not saved by God’s grace alone, but by grace mixed with human effort to maintain sinless perfection. While I have not had time to go over all of their material, I think their opposition to the biblical gospel goes a long way toward discrediting their allegations against Venden.

If anyone knows anything else about this and is more knowledgeable, feel free to post what you know.



Greg

Greg,
I just went to the link above, and I was unaware of the follow-up info. But, I would have a hard time believeing that Claudia Burrows made this entire story up. There seems to be a lot of question about the physician’s report that supposedly exonerated Venden. It looks like the SDA chuch did participate in a massive cover-up.

I also have a lot of problems with Venden’s theolgy. He radically departed from some of his more conservative views on sanctification in his earler years. You almost have to wonder if he changed his theology to fit his lifestyle. His later views on sanctification are not Biblical, and would border on the No-Lordship salvation heresy that John MacArthur attacks. MacArthur would agree with some of the more conservative SDAs that Venden’s theology doesn’t fit the Bible. We are definitely to work at our sanctification, and it is a constant battle. Venden oversimplifies the problem with sin that we all struggle with.

Stan