I’m still waiting for you to show me where Ellen White said I am “more than a prophet”. When you say someone said something and put it in quotes, I expect that you will come up with what was in the quotes, if asked. Is that unfair? Why don’t you just quote what EGW did say concerning herself, (you were right there in 1SM36) and we can move on.
Greg, who inspires your messages? Is what you write from you or do you believe that the Holy Spirit is guiding you? Do you believe the HS guides people to write a lie or to misrepresent the truth? Are you upset that I want you to be held accountable? I see enough of this kind of avoidance and misrepresentation from evolutionists but did not expect to see it in someone who professes to love a humble and lowly Jesus.
Why are you unwilling to take responsibility for the rude comment you made to GH that offended me? You say you are willing to take responsibility, but your action bears the truth. What am I to think? I want to believe that in your heart you want to lift up Jesus and encourage the saints… I am reasonable, understanding and gracious if it was a mistake and not your intent. I do not want to offend you but I would like a response. If silence is going to be your response, then I’ll accept that as where you are at and leave you alone in this regard.
I’m not Greg but the following quotes by EGW reveal she considered herself as ‘more than a prophet’.
Quote:
Why have I not claimed to be a prophet?--Because in these days many who boldly claim that they are prophets are a reproach to the cause of Christ; and because my work includes much more than the word ‘prophet’ signifies. (Selected Messages, Vol 1, p. 32)
Quote:
To claim to be a prophetess is something that I have never done. If others call me by that name, I have no controversy with them. But my work has covered so many lines that I cannot call myself other than a messenger, sent to bear a message from the Lord to His people, and to take up work in any line that He points out.
My work includes much more than this name signifies. I regard myself as a messenger, entrusted by the Lord with messages for His people. (Letter 55, 1905, Selected Messages, Vol 1, pp. 35-36)
Quote:
I am now instructed that I am not to be hindered in my work by those who engage in suppositions regarding its nature, whose minds are struggling with so many intricate problems connected with the supposed work of a prophet. My commission embraces the work of a prophet,but it does not end there. It embraces much more than the minds of those who have been sowing the seeds of unbelief can comprehend. (Letter 244, 1906. Addressed to elders of Battle Creek church, Selected Messages, Vol 1, page 36)
I see you could not come up with a quote from EGW where she says that she was “more than a prophet”. Neither could anyone else. The truth is she said “to claim to be a prophetess is something that I have never done”. You all quote her as saying that her “work” includes much more than the word ‘prophet’ signifies and then triumphantly announce that there it is, she considered herself as more than a prophet. Obviously she prophesied about you all when she said that her work “embraces much more than the minds of those who have been sowing the seeds of unbelief can comprehend”. I notice nobody else came out and actually quoted EGW as having said I am “more than a prophet”. I am thankful it was only you, Greg, that persisted in this “white” lie. I wish that you would apologize for misquoting her and for being rude. A simple apology could have avoided this conflict, but that would be of a different spirit.
According to you Greg, “Ellen White is beyond criticism, and whoever dares to examine her claims is seen as the enemy”. I’m an adventists and I don’t see EGW as beyond criticism and neither do I consider you an enemy. My own testimony reveals what spirit guides you.
According to you Greg, “I have not claimed to be a prophet, God’s messenger or “more than a prophet” as Ellen White claimed”. Well, this is interesting attempt at deferring the focus from you to EGW. I notice how you are now trying to shift your quote from a flat out lie to a mixture of truth along with your lie. It is the truth that you are not a prophet and that EGW claimed to be a messenger, but you cling to your original lie that she claimed to be a prophetess. I can think of someone else who’s practice it is to do the same. He is a liar and the father of it (John 8:44). Perhaps you think its ok to tell little “white” lies, because you don’t claim to be a prophet! God is not honored by anyone who bears a false testimony against anyone else, including EGW. There are other claims you may be able to make of EGW but not that she claimed to be a prophet or considered herself more than a prophet.
I am certainly getting the impression its ok to quote EGW on this forum when it serves the purpose of criticism… But when someone quotes her in a context that you can’t criticize, you appear to think it appropriate to make unnecessary, rude comments and then compare yourself to Paul and Jesus!
Go in peace Greg, before this gets worse… there is no positive purpose to be served in pursuing this further and if you are unwilling to apologize it is best for you to let it go and be more careful in the future when you quote someone. Agreed?
Let’s look at the circular logic here. Ellen White words are synonmous with the “spirit of prophecy” and the Adventist church identifies itself as God’s remnant based on her prophetic gift. Ellen White says she never claimed to be a prophet, yet she also says, “If others call me by that name, I have no controversy with them” and goes further elsewhere, by saying, “My commission embraces the work of a prophet, but it does not end there. It embraces much more...” When we read the rest of the sentence, Bill, you even claim that she “prophesied” by saying that I was identified in her statement as “sowing the seeds of unbelief”.
So what is your argument, Bill? Ellen White can prophesy, claim to be “more than” a prophet and “have no controversy” with those who call her a prophet, but I am a liar for saying that Ellen White considered herself to be all of these things? I am in league with the devil because I have identified her as someone who made prophetic claims? If this is true, the entire Adventist church is guilty by the same argument, since they claim she bears the prophet’s identifying marks.
Further, you say, “you appear to think it appropriate to make unneccessary, rude comments and then compare yourself to Paul and Jesus” as if to fortify your own criticism, yet I also cited Ellen White’s “rude” and “judgmental” comments about “apostate” Christians worshiping on the wrong day and you let these pass. Do I see a double standard emerging here?
Bill, your evasive comments all add up to one very clear message--Ellen White is beyond criticism and anyone who dares to test her words by the biblical standard will be fought with semantic arguments, compared to the devil and will be fulfilling her own prophetic predictions (even though she did not claim to be a prophet--go figure).
I see you could not come up with a quote from EGW where she says that she was “more than a prophet”. Neither could anyone else. The truth is she said “to claim to be a prophetess is something that I have never done”.
Why not continue with the next sentence, Bill? Here’s the entire quote, including the portion that was surgically removed to make a point:
“To claim to be a prophetess is something that I have never done. If others call me by that name, I have no controversy with them. But my work has covered so many lines that I cannot call myself other than a messenger, sent to bear a message from the Lord to His people, and to take up work in any line that He points out.
My work includes much more than this name signifies. I regard myself as a messenger, entrusted by the Lord with messages for His people.” (Letter 55, 1905, Selected Messages, Vol 1, pp. 35-36)
So she has never called herself a prophet, yet if anyone else does then that would be okay with her and she wouldn’t take issue with it. So if someone on this forum refers to her as a prophet, or at least a prophet in the eyes of her church, then why would you have a problem with it? According to her, she wouldn’t. This semantic argument appears to be merely an attempt to obfuscate the clear passages provided by Jonvil and sadly this tactic is all too common of SDA apologists, particularly when discussing Mrs. White and her writings. Instead of acknowledging what is so clearly articulated in Mrs. White’s own words, it’s so much easier to deflect attention away from what is actually being said by making loud accusations about those pointing it out.
How is it, by the way, that someone could possess the Spirit of Prophecy yet not be a prophet? Perhaps your church should change the name to something less misleading and settle this prophet/not-a-prophet controversy once and for all.
According to you Greg, “I have not claimed to be a prophet, God’s messenger or “more than a prophet” as Ellen White claimed”. Well, this is interesting attempt at deferring the focus from you to EGW. I notice how you are now trying to shift your quote from a flat out lie to a mixture of truth along with your lie. It is the truth that you are not a prophet and that EGW claimed to be a messenger, but you cling to your original lie that she claimed to be a prophetess. I can think of someone else who’s practice it is to do the same. He is a liar and the father of it (John 8:44). Perhaps you think its ok to tell little “white” lies, because you don’t claim to be a prophet! God is not honored by anyone who bears a false testimony against anyone else, including EGW. There are other claims you may be able to make of EGW but not that she claimed to be a prophet or considered herself more than a prophet.
It’s very interesting how quick you are to label Greg as a “liar” yet you base this claim on a faulty premise. You have not proven anyone to be a “liar” here yet you not only brand him as such but compare him to Satan in the process. Who is the one being rude? Is this what you consider to be Christian conduct?
If anyone should issue an apology here it certainly isn’t Greg.
Greg, I apologize for offending you. I feel offended when I see someone misquoting EGW, but that did not give me the right to be hurtful in my arguments. I don’t want to be picky, but please don’t put something in quotes unless she said exactly what you put between the quote marks. I don’t feel that is an unfair expectation.
Aaron finally said “So she has never called herself a prophet”. I think it can be left at that.
Bill, let’s stop dancing around the issue. Do you believe Ellen White was a prophet or not? Why do you believe she had “no controversy” with those who called her a prophet?
Greg, I apologize for offending you. I feel offended when I see someone misquoting EGW, but that did not give me the right to be hurtful in my arguments. I don’t want to be picky, but please don’t put something in quotes unless she said exactly what you put between the quote marks. I don’t feel that is an unfair expectation.
Aaron finally said “So she has never called herself a prophet”. I think it can be left at that.
Thank you Aaron.
I’m sure you would like it to “be left at that” yet you continue to ignore her next statement. Why?
Greg, I apologize for offending you. I feel offended when I see someone misquoting EGW, but that did not give me the right to be hurtful in my arguments. I don’t want to be picky, but please don’t put something in quotes unless she said exactly what you put between the quote marks. I don’t feel that is an unfair expectation.
Aaron finally said “So she has never called herself a prophet”. I think it can be left at that.
Thank you Aaron.
I’m sure you would like it to “be left at that” yet you continue to ignore her next statement. Why?
because it’s a semantic game for him. If she had not said -word-for word “I’m more than a prophet” it does not matter if she claimed that her work embraces more than the work of a prophet, or that she had nothing to object when people called herself a prophetess. It does not matter that the concept of being a prophet and more than a prophet is present in her claims, as long as it was not presented in a form of “I’m a prophet”.
Anti-trinitarians do the same with Trinity. They make a big deal that the word Trinity is not in the Bible and even if the reality of the Trinity is clearly present in the Bible, they insist that as long as we cannot produce a statement in which the exact word Trinity can be found, we have no proof that Trinity is a biblical category. Also, they point that nowhere the Bible tells us that “The Holy Spirit is a Person” so, He’s not a Person, He’s a force, a power, the Father’s presence manifested
that kind of exegesis is a disaster for the faith, because in this way the Bible or any other writing is quoted selectively, entire portions are being cut off, and as in the present case with Ellen White, she’s quoted selectively.
Aaron, on the previous page I presented some of the quotes you presented showing how these quotes explain why Ellen White had not claimed to be a prophet, but as it happened in your case, only the claim of Ellen White without the explanation she offered is accepted, a highly selective type of reading, which allows Adventists to keep their particular beliefs about Ellen White intact in the same way Anti-trinitarians keep their beliefs intact.
Anti-trinitarians boast that nobody is able to refute their position, because they established their own strict rules of interpretation which are not compatible with good exegesis, and they are not able to change the reality that Ellen White claimed to be more than a prophet, in the same way Anti-trinitarians are not able to change the reality that the Bible teaches us that we worship a trinitarian God.
“For the Gospel” ... forum ... “good news for Adventists”. Was that a joke?
The truth is, you quoted EGW as saying something that she didn’t ,and you can’t own up to it. What make you think I want to discuss anything with you Greg? Or anyone else that is so prideful that they are unwilling to make a simple apology. Someone else said its a semantic game. Greg, you are the one who made the quote and ever since you have tried to cover it up by attacking me, EGW, and my church, for no reason. Yes, she said her work embraced more than that of a prophet, but nowhere did she claim that title for herself as you said she did. Because she did not feel the need to contend or argue with folks that tried to call her a prophet is of no relevance to this discussion. What is relevant is what she said about herself.
It was also about a rude comment you made that offended me and you were unwilling to apologize.
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. (1Cor 13)
But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. (Rom 14:10)
Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. (Rom 14:15)
And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also. (1John 4:21)
Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. (Matthew 5:23,24)
Perhaps you feel that this is about winning an argument, but I can tell you that you have instead lost your brother.
I am willing to discuss EGW, but not with any of you. My intent in coming here was to find out what the opposing issues are, but I have no interest in subjecting myself to the spirit and tactics I have experienced by you.
I am very sorry to those that posted this thread on the apparent delay of Jesus and for any part I may have had in letting it degrade into what took place. I’d leave this site completely but I’m interested in another subject here. Greg, I feel its best if we both exclude ourselves from seeing each other.
Bill, I don’t back away from the my assertion that Ellen White claimed to be more than a prophet. You have not proven this was an error, you’ve only succeeded in showing that you intend to narrowly read Ellen White without using any judgment or discernment. Your own church officially endorses her prophetic status, so what is the problem if I point this out and repeat her claim to be “more” than what the prophetic office entails?
Further, Bill, you keep insisting that I made a rude statement, but my statement reflects precisely what is found in fundamental belief #18 — that Ellen White is an extra-biblical authority for Adventists. She’s not a canonical Bible author and she is a “continuing and authoritative source of truth” — therefore she is an extra-biblical authority.
Also Bill, it’s not “unloving” to objectively identify the problems with Ellen White. If she said something contrary to the Scriptures, I am showing you concern in pointing that out. I have not done it maliciously, with arrogance or to win an argument, I’ve done it out of concern for you and other Adventists whom I consider friends. If I was a devout Mormon who believed Joseph Smith was a prophet, I would hope you’d show the same concern for me.
Again, I lovingly ask you whether you believe Ellen White was a prophet, and why she had “no controversy” with those who called her a prophet?
Bill, I don’t back away from the my assertion that Ellen White claimed to be more than a prophet. You have not proven this was an error, you’ve only succeeded in showing that you intend to narrowly read Ellen White without using any judgment or discernment. Your own church officially endorses her prophetic status, so what is the problem if I point this out and repeat her claim to be “more” than what the prophetic office entails?
Further, Bill, you keep insisting that I made a rude statement, but my statement reflects precisely what is found in fundamental belief #18 — that Ellen White is an extra-biblical authority for Adventists. She’s not a canonical Bible author and she is a “continuing and authoritative source of truth” — therefore she is an extra-biblical authority.
Also Bill, it’s not “unloving” to objectively identify the problems with Ellen White. If she said something contrary to the Scriptures, I am showing you concern in pointing that out. I have not done it maliciously, with arrogance or to win an argument, I’ve done it out of concern for you and other Adventists whom I consider friends. If I was a devout Mormon who believed Joseph Smith was a prophet, I would hope you’d show the same concern for me.
Again, I lovingly ask you whether you believe Ellen White was a prophet, and why she had “no controversy” with those who called her a prophet?
Greg
Greg,
I hope you aren’t looking for a straight answer because I’ve asked the same question twice and have twice been ignored.
Greg
Again, I lovingly ask you whether you believe Ellen White was a prophet, and why she had “no controversy” with those who called her a prophet?
Aaron
I hope you aren’t looking for a straight answer because I’ve asked the same question twice and have twice been ignored.
Bill
Because she did not feel the need to contend or argue with folks that tried to call her a prophet is of no relevance to this discussion. What is relevant is what she said about herself.
I didn’t ignore your question Aaron, I felt it was an attempt to deflect from the real issues, however, if you look closely you will see that I did answer this question. Perhaps I was ignored…
You are assuming, because EGW didn’t argue with people who wanted to call her a prophet, that she agreed with it. That would clearly be refuted by all the other quotes you and I have referenced on this subject. I was again reminded of the bias that has been shown here regarding EGW so that the worst is always assumed. Sorry if you felt ignored.
Further, I no longer see Greg’s posts except that you appear to have quoted him. There is no lovingly in Greg’s question only an unwillingness to consider or accept what I have already said and an good reminder of why its best that we go our separate ways. At the moment I have no desire to correspond with Greg again. Not because I can’t forgive and forget, but because of his unwillingness to apologize, even if he thinks he is right. Just because he appears used to making condescending, derogatory remarks, does not excuse them. And he has not admitted that he misquoted EGW even if he considers it picky. Greg wants to discuss EGW with me, but at what point is he going to tell me to start quoting the Bible and stop quoting my extra-biblical source! Does no-one see that as being a little hypocritical? It will be ok for Greg, but not for me.
Given all this do you think its is a safe environment for me to share my views on EGW and to discuss them, here, with people that are willing to discuss her with an open mind and be respectful of alternate views? Certainly not with you or Greg and in the end we would both likely fall into sin.
Thank you Aaron, for the encouraging words, thoughts and support you have expressed for me. Its nice to know that in Christ we are supposedly on the same side…
For those who desire a detailed look at the role of Ellen White in Seventh-day Adventism, I heartily recommend your viewing the following recorded videos of the John Ankerberg television show where Dr. William Johnsson (former Adventist Review editor) and the late Dr. Walter Martin ( well-known cult researcher) were the featured guests: http://www.lifeassuranceministries.com/ankerberg.html
Bill ... I have to agree that it concerns me that someone would put words in quotes and assign them to Ellen White but then refuse to provide the source. And we do have the source in context which shows that at no time did she claim to be a prophet . In fact she never claimed to be “more than a prophet”.
Greg continues to mislead by saying “Ellen White can prophesy, claim to be “more than” a prophet”. Yet we have proved she never said she was “more than a prophet”. To take such liberties as to “think” they know what she means when she has not said so ... is really not being honest with the issue. A strict reading is always the safest particularly when you put it in quotes and then refuse to come clean about the truth of what she said.
So, I will join you in calling for Greg to come clean.
Its nice to know that in Christ we are supposedly on the same side
Bill ... this is what I find so distrubing on this site .... why is there a need to put down the believers and their beliefs? We are brothers and sisters in Christ. There is no need to see eye to eye. We can have our differences in belief. We should be celebrating our common roots of the Gospel .... not being so concerned about the “fluff”. All these attacks on the fluff such as what Ellen White’s opinion is ... just seems fruitless to me personally.
Greg continues to mislead by saying “Ellen White can prophesy, claim to be “more than” a prophet”. Yet we have proved she never said she was “more than a prophet”. To take such liberties as to “think” they know what she means when she has not said so ... is really not being honest with the issue. A strict reading is always the safest particularly when you put it in quotes and then refuse to come clean about the truth of what she said.
We are not “thinking” that we know what she means, she explicitly said why she does not claim the title of a prophet: because other people who in her day who claimed to be prophets give the title prophet a bad name and she didn’t wanted to be confused with these people, and “her work includes more than the word “prophet” signifies”
Why have I not claimed to be a prophet?--Because in these days many who boldly claim that they are prophets are a reproach to the cause of Christ; and because my work includes much more than the word “prophet” signifies. {RH, July 26, 1906 par. 7}
My commission embraces the work of a prophet, but it does not end there. It embraces much more than the minds of those who have been sowing the seeds of unbelief can comprehend.--Letter 244, 1906. (Addressed to elders of Battle Creek church.) {1SM 36.2}
To do the work of the prophet requires to have been given the spiritual gift of prophecy, and doing a work that “includes more than the word “prophet” signifies” requires spiritual gifts beyond the gift of prophecy.
For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. 1 Cor. 12:8-11 (ESV)
And hand in hand with the spiritual gift is linked the title of the person. (Eph. 4:11). If somebody has the gift of prophecy, he’s a prophet, if he has the gift of prophecy and something more, if he’s doing the work of prophet and something more he’s more than a prophet.
Glorify Him, you’re playing semantic games here. You’re hanging on words, ignoring Ellen White’s own explanation for her refusal to use the word prophet. Her own explanation demonstrate not that she had not seen herself as being a prophet, but she had seen herself doing more than what a prophet did and consequently she was more than a prophet, because her work encompassed more than the work of a prophet. It does not matter the form in which Ellen White expressed her claim, it does matter that she claimed to be more than a prophet implicitly by claiming that her work encompassed more than the work of the prophet. The claim exists, and you’re living in denial, playing semantic games
Certainly not with you or Greg and in the end we would both likely fall into sin.
