Admin note: moved to a new thread since the last one was getting long. The old thread is here. The author of this post is Pastor Williams.

dwayne: You turned things on their head. I don’t have a problem with Phil 2:12.13. My point to you, by the way was that you are incorrect to insert into the passage the idea that “work out your salvation means to, “represent your salvation, express your salvation.” You can look it up just like I can.  It literally says to, “do work fully, i.e. accomplish; by implication, to finish”(Strong’s) your salvation.” If you find that objectionable your argument should be with Strong. But since he is probably going to win that argument, you will have to discuss the matter with Paul, and then with the Holy Spirit who inspired Paul. As for me, I am sure that Paul was not saying to represent or express your salvation in Phil 2:12. Just look at the Greek, it shows this. The word used is related to the term used in the next verse (13) where God works in us. They both come from the same primary root word “ergon.” (See Strong’s).

Stan writes:
Adam and Eve’s probationary status was a lot different than the situation with regard to fallen sinners who have been redeemed. In Reformed theology, this is referred to as the Covenant of Works ...
First of all the Reformed theology isn’t the final interpreter of the Word of God for me. Only the Holy Spirit has that place in my life—nobody else not even EGW. The Reformed theology is looking only for a difference in God’s plans. Take off the Reformed constraints and let the Spirit point out the similarities.

Second, life was given to Adam and Eve as a gift of God’s grace through faith.Where is the mention of a covenant? Seem that a covenant is being read into the text—because some are looking only for differences in God’s plan for Adam and Eve in Eden, versus His plan for them outside of Eden.

What Eph 2:8-10 says about the saved is also a description of God’s plan for Adam and Eve in Eden. In both cases life is an unmerited gift and in both cases works are a God-ordained expectation. Look at the passages first as adapted to the point being made this way:

“For by grace you [ADAM AND EVE] have been [GIVEN LIFE. AND YOU RETAIN IT] through faith [IN ME AND MY WORD]. And this [LIFE] is not your own doing; it [LIFE] is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” 10 For we are his workmanship, created [GIVEN LIFE] in Christ Jesus [IN HIM WE LIVE AND MOVE AND HAVE OUR BEING—EXISTENCE] unto GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

But you might say, that is not the audience Paul was talking to. Is what Paul is telling forgiven believers (apples) and what might be said to Adam and Eve (oranges) different?  If you did bring that up I would say, Ah, how good of you to bring that up! Yes, let us look at it just the way it is—but still applied to Adam and Even in Eden. If Adam and Eve would have put their faith in the Word of God instead of the word of the Devil it might well have been written of them:

Eph 2:8 For by grace [GOD SHOWED THEM UNMERITED FAVOR WHEN HE MADE THE TEST SO EASY, AND ALSO WHEN HE LIMITED THE DEVIL’S ACCESS TO THEM TO ONE LITTLE PLACE IN A VERY BIG WORLD] are ye [ADAM AND EVE] saved [HOW WOULD THEY BE SAVED FROM FALLING? YES, THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN SAVED—SAVED FROM FALLING. HOW? IT WOULD BE] through faith [FAITH IN CHRIST THEIR CREATOR’S WORD. YES, THAT FAITH WOULD HAVE BEEN THEIR ONLY REASON TO REJECT THE DEVIL’S COUNSEL AND THUS BE SAVED FROM ALL THAT SIN WOULD BRING INTO THEIR LIVES AND OUR LIVES. THAT WOULD REALLY BE “SAVED”]; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God [THEIR LIFE AND THEIR FAITH WERE NOT OF THEMSELVES—ALL THINGS WERE CREATED AND ARE SUSTAINED BY CHRIST. SO IT IS,]: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast [THEIR FAITH WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ANYTHING TO BOAST OF—THE TEST WAS SO EASY! AND, THEIR FAITH WAS GOD’S GIFT TO THEM. THEY DID NOT MAKE IT THEMSELVES.] 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works [OF FAITH], which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

It will amaze me if anyone continues to resist the simplicity of this parallel between Adam and Eve in Eden and our situation. This is the everlasting Gospel that Revelation 14 speaks of. But I have a great degree of confidence that you all will reject it. I just shake my head and once in awhile I laugh. It is so amazing!

Nevertheless, I press on to this: It was a failure of faith that led to the fall. Two individuals that were in a secure relationship with God fell. This is significant in the context of your comment,

When God saves us by His sovereign will, and adopts us as sons and daughters, this act of adoption is final ...YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED...” etc

There are two things about this in the present context that are noteworthy:

1. I have asked this before: If our salvation is final at the time of our acceptance of Christ, as you say, and if the reformed doctrine of perseverance of the saints is true, Why in the world were Adam and Eve treated differently before they fell? Why were they able to not persevere? And if Christ was really like us, how could he have fallen. How could He if the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints were true? And why would this not apply to the angels such as Lucifer before the fall?  Please let me know if I have missed a good answer to this somewhere in this string. But if you cannot give me an answer to these questions which I have asked over and over, it shows me the profound weakness of your biblical support, and it shows your gospel misses the mark.

2. I have been reading the Bible and noting the passages that do not support your loyalty to the Reformed gospel. As it turns out there are many such passages. Consider this text in light of our previous discussions on two accusers (the law, and Satan).

Some resist the idea that Satan’s accusations against us have any hearing with God. It is all done at the cross. Well, if God isn’t noting Satan’s accusations against us since the Cross, why does God NOTE that Satan is the accuser, since the Cross, in Revelation (12:10)? Why does He reveal this aspect of Lucifer’s activities by referring to him as Devil (Gr. slander, false accuser) and Satan (Heb: adversary) in Rev 12:9? It only makes sense that God would communicate this to us if it is because it is important for us to know. And by the way, all of those who keep saying, well the only thing that matters is the Cross—or some similar words, amaze me. Deacon seems to think we lose sight of Christ by looking into the future. Greg laments, “The great promises of Scripture are utterly stripped of their power if salvation lies somewhere in the future and is uncertain until the day of judgment.” Well, let the Bible speak friends. Please! let the Bible speak!  Does it make our salvation conditional? Yes, on faithfulness. But don’t take my word for it. Look for yourselves at what it says to BELIEVERS:

Col 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, 2 To the holy and faithful brothers in Christ [DO YOU SEE THAT? THESE ARE HOLY, FAITHFUL, BROTHERS IN CHRIST THAT PAUL IS WRITING TO] at Colosse: Grace and peace to you from God our Father.

These are not the fence sitters, these are not the pretenders, these are not the ones who have gotten an idea of what could be theirs in Christ but turn away (see our discussions about Heb 6). These are the real thing. They are exactly what you and I think we are in Christ—true believers.

Here are the questions Paul answers as writes to these true believers:
How are we free of accusation before God?
In what do we have hope?
Can we loose salvation?

Col 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation — 23 IF you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant .... 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Col 2:5 ... I ... delight to see how orderly you are and how firm your faith in Christ is. 6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him .... 18 Do not let anyone ... disqualify you for the prize ...

Paul did not teach those in Colosse the Reformed tradition of the perseverance of the saints— the idea that some of us are picked and that those picked lose the freedom to chose to reject Christ. He told them that Holy believers can choose to let people disqualify them for the prize of salvation (by getting a tangled up useless distractions Ehp 2:4,8). Their hope rested in Christ’s death, the blood of the lamb, but also in the word of their testimony—a testimony of Christ within them, “the hope of glory.” Holiness engenders the hope of glory. Where is it written that hope and assurance come from a belief that is devoid of sanctification? Nowhere. In fact, Paul stipulates, God has reconciled you with Himself by Jesus, “IF [note that IF] you continue.”

So, the prevalent idea of most in this string that a saint cannot loose salvation is proven false by Paul’s letter to the Colossians. They can lose out if they do not continue in faith, if they let someone dissuade them from continuing to live in Christ be disqualified. So the Apostles says, “I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.” (Phil 3:14). There is a consistent and harmonious line of truth here that makes perfect sense. Jesus says no one can take us out of His hand. Of course no one is powerful enough to overcome God. But what does this say about whether the believer can switch to unbelief? Nothing. Adam and Eve took themselves out of God’s hand, Lucifer did, a third of the angels did, Jesus was tempted to take Himself out of God’s hand.

In the face of these crystal clear undeniable irrefutable arguments I just am amazed that anyone would continue to cite such passages as “proof” that real believers will not or cannot chose to reject salvation.

Stan you write “Where is there even one hint that we as His redeemed sons and daughters are under probation??” I have listed about forty passages with at least a hint of believer probation. And as for them being part of the “old covenant”: I really don’t think your understanding of the covenants is well thought out—nor was this question carefully considered. In other words thanks for asking!:) Anyway, think about it with me and you may at least see where you need to strengthen your argument. I will demonstrate the weakness of your covenant stand by using a few of the forty texts you dismiss with your doctrine. As we look at these texts remember that probation is simply a testing period, a trial, an examination of fitness for a something.

We note that in that portion of the Bible which you call the Old Covenant, and therefore dismiss as not applicable to us, these three passages:

“Oh, let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end, but establish the just; for the righteous God tests the hearts and minds.” (Ps 7:9, NKJ)

“And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.” (1Chr 28:9)

“The LORD is in his holy temple; the LORD is on his heavenly throne. He observes the sons of men; his eyes examine them. The LORD examines [investigates] the righteous.” (Ps 11:4-5, NIV)

Now by your reasoning this is all done away with by a new covenant. But you have a big BIG problem with your stand on the issue of probation, your covenant doctrine, and your gospel. For, we find that that the portion of the Bible that is acceptable to you, bases its understanding of probation (testing, a trial, examination), the gospel, and the covenants upon that which you deem unacceptable. For now we focus on believer probation or testing. Look at these passages that obviously are quotes or statements based on the Old Testament doctrine we have seen in the passages you dismiss:

“We have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak, not as pleasing men but God, who examines our hearts.” (1Thes 2:4, NAS).

“And all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works. (Rev 2:23, NKJ)

“You have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ.” (1Pet 1:6,7, NKJ, Cf. 1Cor3:13).

At the risk of being too redundant, I want to make the point again with this question: Where did Paul and Peter find out that God test or examines our hearts? From the Old Testament doctrine, friend. The book of Revelation is known by all scholars as based heavily on quotes and inferences to Old Testament writings. Jesus is practically quoting the OT in Rev 2:23. Was Jesus unaware and ignorant of the popular covenant interpretations and thus mistaken? Or could it be that He is right and some of us who hold to these modern ideas need to rethink our doctrine.

This comparison of OT and NT passages shows us that the doctrine of probation continues to be part of God’s plan and repudiates the notion that God’s plan to give us unending life has changed. Adam was tested or on probation, the Old Testament believers were on probation (tested), New Testament believers are on probation (tested). In every one of these three periods believers could and did choose to reject their faith. Any covenant doctrine that denies this, is one that reads the Bible with blinders—only allowing in ideas that agree with their cherished ideas. This is what I see going on in this string.  But this is the sort of thing you accuses me of over and over. Who is really got the blinders on? Well, beloved friend and all my faithful opponents ... its you:)

I would also add that when one’s covenant doctrine rips off the Old Testament and throws it away, that doctrine is throwing away the portion of the Bible that the Apostles used to base their preaching and teaching. God spoke to Christ and his Apostles through the Old Testament Bible. They lived by the OT Bible. The error of seeing the old covenant, the one that was “faulty” as, the Old Testament itself (or portions thereof that conflict with our understanding) gives birth to confusion (which I think I see in your discussion with one another over the subject), but worse, sets human beings over the scriptures. Uninspired human become an authority over the God’s Word. Humans use one passage to eat up or dismiss another passage. That is an arrogance and the narrowness born out of dispensationalism and popular covenant doctrine. This is why I would have to force myself to believe as many of you. I say that with respect and love, but also in wonder that you could use the Bible as you do. Please know that I do not doubt your motives, your character, your salvation, your sincerity, your love for Christ—but I sure doubt your ability to carefully and objectively analyze the Bible. Come on show me you can do it. Take on the comparison of OT and NT passages above. Answer my questions about perseverance and Adam, Jesus, Angels, the Devil. I am profoundly unimpressed by those who say things like, The Reformed position was this or that. That this or that denomination is “majoring in the minors.”

The reformers have been elevated to prophets? Didn’t Jesus say teach all that I commanded, and didn’t the apostle tell us to get beyond the elementary things. These reformer arguments etc. are diversions that make it easier to ignore the hard questions and objectively deal with the text. Now I am not being gentle here but again, I love you. So, please read this as a good natured challenge.

Posted anonymously by: dwayne

[quote author="Pastor Williams"]dwayne: You turned things on their head. I don’t have a problem with Phil 2:12.13. My point to you, by the way was that you are incorrect to insert into the passage the idea that “work out your salvation means to, “represent your salvation, express your salvation.” You can look it up just like I can.  It literally says to, “do work fully, i.e. accomplish; by implication, to finish”(Strong’s) your salvation.” If you find that objectionable your argument should be with Strong. But since he is probably going to win that argument, you will have to discuss the matter with Paul, and then with the Holy Spirit who inspired Paul. As for me, I am sure that Paul was not saying to represent or express your salvation in Phil 2:12. Just look at the Greek, it shows this. The word used is related to the term used in the next verse (13) where God works in us. They both come from the same primary root word “ergon.” (See Strong’s).

The problem with a mindset is exactly that, a set mind. Your argument is a great straw man of your own making. I have no problem with the word “work”. Pease read/re-read my first post regarding Phil:2 again.

The very point of the Gospel, the point that apostle Paul championed, and my point by the way… is that no one’s works accomplish their salvation!

Paul is NOT telling the Phillipians to work for their salvation. He is encouraging them work out their salvation, something they already possess.

Posted anonymously by: Pastor Williams

dwayne:

Oh I see, Well Ok I am not sayiing that you in particular have a problem with Phil 2:13. I took the discussion you were having as an opportunity to share some thoughts about the passage. Some people struggle with this passage and say things that are not true: Such as that the word for work in 12 is different than the word for work in the next verse (13). Anyway, it and James 2:24 have been a problem for some. You said that I had a problem with it and so that is why I responded last night. Also, I just wanted to point out that the word work did not support the interpretation, “represent your salvation, express your salvation.”

Basically I agree with your statement that,
“Paul is NOT telling the Phillipians to work for their salvation. He is encouraging them work out their salvation, something they already possess.”

The only exceptions, I would make to your statement is that possessing salvation is something we can let go of, and that there are some aspects of salvation that are still to be fulfilled. For example Paul writes

Rom 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. (NIV)

Certain aspects of our adoption and redemption are in the future.

Must get going. Will be out of town starting tomorrow for two days. Need to get ready for that trip today.

Hope you and all have a blessed day and good week walking with Jesus.

[quote author="Pastor Williams"]
If our salvation is final at the time of our acceptance of Christ, as you say, and if the reformed doctrine of perseverance of the saints is true, Why in the world were Adam and Eve treated differently before they fell? Why were they able to not persevere? And if Christ was really like us, how could he have fallen. How could He if the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints were true? And why would this not apply to the angels such as Lucifer before the fall? Please let me know if I have missed a good answer to this somewhere in this string. But if you cannot give me an answer to these questions which I have asked over and over, it shows me the profound weakness of your biblical support, and it shows your gospel misses the mark.

Pastor Williams, neither Adam nor Satan were born into sin as we are, therefore your argument is logically flawed.  Because we are born with original sin, we have no capacity in ourselves to stop sinning nor can we resurrect ourselves from death to life--only God can do this.

Adam was free to choose life or death, but we are not.  We are in bondage to Adam’s “original sin” (Romans 5:12-14).  Being born into Adam’s fallen nature, we are slaves to sin from our very first breath.  Jesus taught the doctrine of original sin in his interaction with the Pharisees: “Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires.” (John 8:43-44 ESV).  Unlike the pre-fall Adam, children of Satan do not have the ability to even hear God’s Word unless He extends His grace to them.  Truly, no one is righteous, no not one (Romans 3:9-18).  Because of Adam’s sin, our hearts are deceitful above all things and desperately sick (Jeremiah 17:9).  Outside of Christ, we are “dead in our trespasses” (Ephesians 2:1-3).

Pastor Williams, you said “It will amaze me if anyone continues to resist the simplicity of this parallel between Adam and Eve in Eden and our situation...I just shake my head and once in awhile I laugh.” Inflammatory rhetoric aside, I hope the above texts will give you sufficient reason to re-examine your belief that Adam’s pre-fall condition is similar to yours.  While Adam had the choice to fall, you had no choice since you were born a fallen creature.  What’s more, you have no choice to end the dominance of Adam’s sin that reigns in your flesh--if you did, you would not need a Savior.

Furthermore, you continually argue for man’s right to reject the salvation of Christ, yet I don’t think you can point to one example in Scripture of a born again believer who chose to pluck himself out of God’s hand.  Even Peter, who denied Christ, was kept until the end for God’s sovereign purposes.  I gently remind you that the pre-fall condition of Adam, Eve and Lucifer was not the same as that of a redeemed sinner who is clothed with the imputed righteousness of Christ.  Having been justified, the redeemed sinner is continually sanctified by His perfect work.  Philippians 1:6 is abundantly clear on this--"He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.”

Maybe the good news is just too good to be true for some of us, and we must look for ways to introduce a little bad news back into the mix to retain our veto power over God.  John 10:29 says that God is sovereign over ALL, but some of us would like to retain an escape clause giving us sovereignty over Him.

This discussion reminds me of the serpent’s words to Eve in the garden of Eden--"Has God really said that you were not to eat from the tree of life?” (Genesis 3:1) Now it is, “Has God really said that whoever hears the good news and believes in Him will not come into judgment, but has already passed into eternal life?” (John 5:24) “Has God really said that all whom He gives to Jesus will never be cast out?” (John 6:37) “Has God really said that it is He who gives eternal life and that nobody to whom this gift is given will be snatched out of His hand?” (John 10:28-29)

But we do serve a God who is rich in mercy and whose gospel is unqualified good news.  It is this God, who, despite our inability to love Him, first loved us. (1 John 4:10).  Let us not endeavor to dilute the incomparable joy of this glorious good news.

Greg

Posted anonymously by: John Douglas

[quote author="Greg"]
Maybe the good news is just too good to be true for some of us, and we must look for ways to introduce a little bad news back into the mix to retain our veto power over God.  John 10:29 says that God is sovereign over ALL, but some of us would like to retain an escape clause giving us sovereignty over Him.

This discussion reminds me of the serpent’s words to Eve in the garden of Eden--"Has God really said that you were not to eat from the tree of life?” (Genesis 3:1) Now it is, “Has God really said that whoever hears the good news and believes in Him will not come into judgment, but has already passed into eternal life?” (John 5:24) “Has God really said that all whom He gives to Jesus will never be cast out?” (John 6:37) “Has God really said that it is He who gives eternal life and that nobody to whom this gift is given will be snatched out of His hand?” (John 10:28-29)

But we do serve a God who is rich in mercy and whose gospel is unqualified good news.  It is this God, who, despite our inability to love Him, first loved us. (1 John 4:10).  Let us not endeavor to dilute the incomparable joy of this glorious good news. Greg

Kudos! Well said.

The Adventist mindset cannot grasp the simplicity of the Gospel. They will say they believe the Gospel…BUT…then make it unobtainable by placing the simple Gospel on top of a huge pile of unscriptural baggage.

To repeat a post I made on CARM:

‘Adventist theology has put salvation as the cap-stone of an insurmountable pyramid instead of the base upon which all rests.’

JONVIL

Pastor Williams,

[quote author="Pastor Williams"]So, the prevalent idea of most in this string that a saint cannot loose salvation is proven false by Paul’s letter to the Colossians. They can lose out if they do not continue in faith, if they let someone dissuade them from continuing to live in Christ be disqualified.

Yes, “if”, “if”, “if, we agree with this “if”. If introduces a condition, and this condition must be fulfilled in order for the result to follow. In our case, if they will not continue in faith, they will loose salvation. We have nothing against this “if”. “If” they will finally cease to believe, they will be lost.

What reformed faith believes is that this “if” remains a hypothetic situation which will not occur in the lives of a true believer. Simply, God will protect His sheep from going astray to the lengths of being totally lost. The promise for the sheep, for true believers, is coming from Jesus

I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. John 10:28

We are not basing our theology on some texts without paying attention to other texts. How the “if” can be harmonized with the full assurance of salvation can be seen in the following text.

For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect Matthew 24:24

For example, we can say that, if possible, we will accomplish this or that, but when we are talking in this way, this does not imply that this possibility will occur. This just reflect a wish, and we know what wishful thinking is.

What I’m trying to say is that introducing a condition does not annul the surety of the fulfillment of God’s promise. If God promise eternal life on condition of believing, He will make sure that the condition will be met. His promises are in a sense conditional, but they carry a second promise which is not conditional: that God will guarantee the accomplishment of the condition. In this way His plans are remaining immutable and God will not change His mind, giving salvation to us for awhile and afterward taking it back, changing His mind. His sovereignty and immutability are what they really are, not subjected to the whims of people. he is and remains God and He will accomplish His Word because He is true and cannot contradict Himself.

As Diana says, “He is awesome”

Gabriel

Posted anonymously by: Ane

Yes Greg Thanks!

That’s the first time I’ve been able to wrap my mind around this concept.

Ane

Greg,

I want to add something more about Adam. We are not required to play the role of Adam, Jesus played it for us, He is the second Adam. “Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.” Romans 5:14. He fulfilled the condition of absolute and perfect, 100% obedience to the law, which Adam failed to fulfill and brought a curse.

Adam was in a covenant with God, “But like Adam they transgressed the covenant” Hosea 6:7. Adam broke the covenant and because it was a covenant, his posterity shared in the curse he brought on himself by his sin.

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.  For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous Romans 5:18,19

All who were included in Adam, all who were united with him, were condemned by his act, and in the same way all the elect, all those united with Christ by God’s choosing, will be justified by the one act of the second Adam.

Spurgeon said it well in his book, “All of Grace”

I had heard the plan of salvation by the sacrifice of Jesus from my youth up; but I did not know any more about it in my innermost soul than if I had been born and bred a Hottentot. The light was there, but I was blind; it was of necessity that the Lord himself should make the matter plain to me. It came to me as a new revelation, as fresh as if I had never read in Scripture that Jesus was declared to be the propitiation for sins that God might be just. I believe it will have to come as a revelation to every newborn child of God whenever he sees it; I mean that glorious doctrine of the substitution of the Lord Jesus. I came to understand that salvation was possible through vicarious sacrifice; and that provision had been made in the first constitution and arrangement of things for such a substitution. I was made to see that He who is the Son of God, co-equal, and co-eternal with the Father, had of old been made the covenant Head of a chosen people that He might in that capacity suffer for them and save them. Inasmuch as our fall was not at the first a personal one, for we fell in our federal representative, the first Adam, it became possible for us to be recovered by a second representative, even by Him who has undertaken to be the covenant head of His people, so as to be their second Adam. I saw that ere I actually sinned I had fallen by my first father’s sin; and I rejoiced that therefore it became possible in point of law for me to rise by a second head and representative. The fall by Adam left a loophole of escape]; another Adam can undo the ruin made by the first. When I was anxious about the possibility of a just God pardoning me, I understood and saw by faith that He who is the Son of God became man, and in His own blessed person bore my sin in His own body on the tree. I saw the chastisement of my peace was laid on Him, and that with His stripes I was healed. Dear friend, have you ever seen that? Have you ever understood how God can be just to the full, not remitting penalty nor blunting the edge of the sword, and yet can be infinitely merciful, and can justify the ungodly who turn to Him?

Basically, the thought is that in the same way we become lost because of another act of somebody else, we are saved because of another act of somebody else. This is the excellency of Christ! This is why the cross and substitution is not a legal fiction, this explains how God can still be right in punishing someone else and save us by what someone else did! Hallelujah!

God bless you all with joy in this good knews

Gabriel

Gabriel, I had not seen the reference from Hosea 6:7 before--this should put to rest any belief that Adam was not in a covenant relationship with God.  Thanks for pointing that verse out!

The topics of this thread were discussed on last night’s White Horse Inn radio program entitled “Free Will?”.  If anyone is interested in downloading a free mp3 of the program, it’s available (after registration) here.  The whole program is worth listening to, particularly in light of the assertions of Pastor Williams on this thread.

What we need to realize is that ALL men are dead in their sins because of Adam’s original sin.  God is not required to save any of us and would be perfectly just and holy if He saved no one.  After all, God’s creation has sinned against Him, defiling His perfect creative work.

Yet God has seen fit to allow the sun to shine on those who openly defy Him, and He sends rain on both the just and the unjust (Matthew 5:45).  It is abundantly clear that He has given unmerited blessings to everyone, and has even resurrected some to eternal life.  That He was not required to do this and is even justified in leaving us dead in our sins makes His grace all the more breathtaking.  Through the second Adam--Jesus Christ--God has reconciled us to Himself.

“All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them...For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” (1 Corinthians 5:18-21 ESV)

How can we seek to undo that which God has already given us?  How can we ever trade the garments of righteousness God has clothed us in for our old filthy rags?  If the robe really slips off so easily, perhaps we should ask who made it--God or us?

Greg

Thanks Greg, Dwayne, Gabriel and all for your responses. Charles Spurgeon says things so well.

Pastor Williams wrote:

“Eph 2:8 For by grace [GOD SHOWED THEM UNMERITED FAVOR WHEN HE MADE THE TEST SO EASY, AND ALSO WHEN HE LIMITED THE DEVIL’S ACCESS TO THEM TO ONE LITTLE PLACE IN A VERY BIG WORLD] are ye [ADAM AND EVE] saved [HOW WOULD THEY BE SAVED FROM FALLING? YES, THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN SAVED—SAVED FROM FALLING. HOW? IT WOULD BE] through faith [FAITH IN CHRIST THEIR CREATOR’S WORD. YES, THAT FAITH WOULD HAVE BEEN THEIR ONLY REASON TO REJECT THE DEVIL’S COUNSEL AND THUS BE SAVED FROM ALL THAT SIN WOULD BRING INTO THEIR LIVES AND OUR LIVES. THAT WOULD REALLY BE “SAVED”]; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God [THEIR LIFE AND THEIR FAITH WERE NOT OF THEMSELVES—ALL THINGS WERE CREATED AND ARE SUSTAINED BY CHRIST. SO IT IS,]: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast [THEIR FAITH WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ANYTHING TO BOAST OF—THE TEST WAS SO EASY! AND, THEIR FAITH WAS GOD’S GIFT TO THEM. THEY DID NOT MAKE IT THEMSELVES.] 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works [OF FAITH], which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
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Pastor Williams,

What version are you quoting from above? Is this your version of the “Clear Word” Bible?

I am sitting here shaking my head. I cannot believe you can come up with the idea that Adam before the fall was in the same position, that we as fallen sinners who have been bought by the precious blood of Jesus, are now in the same category as Adam before the fall. If you are talking about the way of salvation after Adam fell, then fine.

But the easiest reading of Ephesians 2:8,9 clearly says that WE HAVE ALREADY BEEN SAVED. Also in Ephesians 2, Paul says that we have been raised with Christ and are seated in heavenly places. This can only mean one thing: Our security in Christ is as secure as Christ’s eternal position in the Trinity. If Christ can now fall from heaven, after redeeming us at Calvary, then it may be possible for us to lose our position, but of course this is impossible.

I noticed Pastor Williams in your long reply to my post, you avoided the very simple words of Jesus that are so widespread in the book of John that would contradict almost everything you are saying. How come Jesus never put conditions on his clear and unequivocal statements?

When I was growing up SDA, it was always said, that the book of John is for young Christians, but if you really want the meat of the word, you would find that in the Old Testament, and in Daniel and Revelation, and of course as interpreted by Ellen White.

But, I will stake my eternal destiny on the very clearest words of Jesus, and I will stake my theology on the very words of Jesus, because if he says in John 5:24, that I have crossed over into eternal life, because I believe His Word, then that is good enough for me.

I am saddened by your response Pastor Williams, because, I see a somewhat desperate attempt to try to reconcile SDA theology with selected portions of scripture, emphasizing the OT, but you would clearly make of none effect the very simple words of Jesus in John 10:27-30 where He says that no one can snatch His sheep from His hand or His Father’s hand, as Jesus and the Father are one. The Triune God has left nothing to chance with regard to the redemption of His children since the Father chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1), and Christ was the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world, as our names were written into His palms where the nails pierced them, and the blood shed on Calvary on that Good Friday afternoon was the price paid for our redemption. The Holy Spirit guarantees this salvation as we are sealed, guaranteeing our inheritance (All this is so clearly stated in Ephesians 1), But for some reason, it is necessary for some to go into long philosophical writing and reasoning, when it would be so simple if we would just accept the very words of Jesus and the apostles, which are so clear.

One principle of Biblical interpretation is to take the very clearest scriptures related to a topic, and to take sections of scripture where didactic teaching is offered on a topic, and then interpret Old Testament scriptures, and less clear New Testament scriptures in light of the very clearest words of scripture as in the book of John, and the book of Romans, and the book of Ephesians, where the great doctrines of salvation are so clearly spelled out, that even a child can interpret what they mean.

Stan

Posted anonymously by: Pastor Williams

I am truly grateful to all who have responded to my question about Adam etc. I have asked that question several times in this string and I am really interested in your responses.

In my posting for July 30, 2007 I make a comparison: Adam et al before the fall and all of us after the fall. In that I cite Eph 2:8-10. To this you have responded and I will just say for now that it seems evident that some have missed the point. I am not equating but comparing our situation as sinners with Adam and Eve’s before the fall. I am aware that there are differences, but can you not see the similarities? You who celebrate the sovereignty of God and His unchangeable nature ought rather to rejoice at the way this post shows His consistency. Don’t fight that which supports and argues in favor of the thing you so adamantly stand for!

Concerning the probationary/testing in the OT and NT. How does this affect your covenant doctrine? How does it affect your understanding of the Gospel?

Tell me, why does our freedom to reject eternal life after sincerely and truly accepting it destroy God’s sovereignty. Is God’s power and love and wisdom so limited that He cannot give us complete freedom even after we are living with Him in heaven? Do you mean to imply that there is no real freedom for the angels after Jesus died? Or for us after the Second Coming. Or for us now? Or has it always been that way--no real freedom for anyone? Oops that gets us back to my question about Lucifer and the angels who fell, back to Adam and Eve before the fall. Why would it be different for them than those who will be saved from the fall?

You ask for one example of some one who has rejected the gift after receiving it. I think that question is impossible to answer. Not because there is no example. But because any answer or example will be interpreted by you to be of one who never had the gift in the first place. By the way, I have the sense that I have the freedom to extract myself from Jesus’ hand, the Father’s hand. I feel that I am like Adam before the fall. Just as secure as he was—do you get that? JUST AS SECURE AS HE WAS—yet able to fall just like He did.

Now I think that my understanding of assurance is better than yours. Because as I say in my book, the believer is just as secure as Adam was before he fell. Your security rests on God’s choice. My God is wise and big enough to allow my salvation to rest on my choice of Him. Love for Him is the basis of my choice. His selective love is the basis for your security.

There are some people who are naturally doubtful about themselves and their relationship with God. Especially when they fall and fail they are given to discouragement. I am afraid that the perseverance doctrine would offer them little comfort. In fact I would tend to think that they would come to the conclusion that since they are not persevering they must not be chosen. I am sure that this doctrine has been as bad as the legalistic presentations of the investigative judgment at undermining assurance of some. It is also not something that would tend to foster evangelism among the lost.

And another thing about this: It seems that this is one problem mentioned by historians concerning those who brought the reformed doctrines to America. It made it easier to slaughter the Indians. When they attacked the “camp of the saints” committed atrocities against the white settlers, the Indians proved themselves to be “unchosen.” That was the end of evangelism and out came the guns!

[quote author="Pastor Williams"]By the way, I have the sense that I have the freedom to extract myself from Jesus’ hand, the Father’s hand.

If you can extract yourself from Jesus’ hand and the Father’s hand, you will perish. But the Bible says

28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. John 10:28

If some who is in Jesus’ hand will extract him form Jesus’ hand, he will perish and simply this makes the words “they will never perish” a blatant lie.

Secondly, we talked here about the slavery of the will, and the fact that people are not free, they are slaves to sin, and Jesus mission was to liberate the captives. Pastor Williams, we are waiting for you to engage with these biblical truths and realities.

9 What then? Are we Jews any better off?  No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
Romans 3:9-18

If people are born free to sin, we expect that at least we will find some who had never sinned, the universality of sin proves that there is an inevitable condition, nobody escapes, and consequently nobody is free. We have no free people on this planet.

Gabriel

Pastor Williams,

Our slavery and lack of freedom comes from within, not from God’s way of ruling the universe. It’s not like God preventing people to enter heaven in spite of their desire to be there, or God dragging sinners screaming into heaven. God does not act against the will and desires of men, He makes something else, He gives us the desire to be with Him.

Left to ourselves we will choose always to reject God.

For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8:7,8

4 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. Romans 7:14

If we are finally left to reject Jesus and extract from His hand, our choice will be always to reject God and Jesus. The greatest enemy is not outside of us, it is inside us.

I recognize that the Investigative Judgment looks plausible in a world composed of people who are not slaves to sin, but only partially affected by it, but not in a world of sinners totally affected by sin.

Gabriel

Posted anonymously by: Ane

Pastor Williams said:

I feel that I am like Adam before the fall. Just as secure as he was—do you get that? JUST AS SECURE AS HE WAS—yet able to fall just like He did.

Ah yes, but the point is that WHEN a believer falls he doesn’t fall out of salvation! Once the sanctification process has begun God will be faithful to complete it.

The difference is before I was a believer I didn’t care when I fell. Now that I’m a believer I despise myself when I fail God. And I fail constantly ... that is what makes me so aware of my need for a Savior. I don’t intentionally go out and fall, but it happens anyway. I must rely on Christ’s righteousness or I’m doomed!

Pastor Williams wrote:

“And another thing about this: It seems that this is one problem mentioned by historians concerning those who brought the reformed doctrines to America. It made it easier to slaughter the Indians. When they attacked the “camp of the saints” committed atrocities against the white settlers, the Indians proved themselves to be “unchosen.” That was the end of evangelism and out came the guns!”
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Pastor, the above statement is really unfair and uncharitable. How much have you read of the Puritan’s writings?

At this link is a collection of Puritan Prayers:

http://www.oldlandmarks.com/puritan.htm

Here is one example called “Valley of Vision”

“Lord, high and holy, meek and lowly, Thou hast brought me to the valley of vision, where I live in the depths but see Thee in the heights; hemmed in by mountains of sin I behold Thy glory. Let me learn by paradox that the way down is the way up, that to be low is to be high, that the broken heart is the healed heart, that the contrite spirit is the rejoicing spirit, that the repenting soul is the victorious soul, that to have nothing is to possess all, that to bear the cross is to wear the crown, that to give is to receive, that the valley is the place of vision. Lord, in the daytime stars can be seen from deepest wells, and the deeper the wells the brighter Thy stars shine; let me find Thy light in my darkness, Thy life in my death, Thy joy in my sorrow, Thy grace in my sin, Thy riches in my poverty, Thy glory in my valley.”
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Please examine the other prayers at that link, and you will see the very godly spirit of these great men of God.

The Reformed faith, the faith of the Puritans, is not popular, because God gets all the credit for our salvation. The religions of the natural man such as Romanism want to give at least some of the glory and credit to man.

But, think of the works of the Puritan author John Bunyan. Ellen White said that Bunyan breathed the very air of heaven. Well Bunyan was a Calvinist, and he wrote that great work “Pilgrim’s Progress”.

Stan

Posted anonymously by: Pastor Williams

Dear Stam:
It is true that the Puritans had some very noble points. However, they were the ones that persecuted others. In keeping with their low view of Christian freedom they did not allow proper freedom of conscience. They were responsible for the abuse of the Indian’s human rights. Over these issues Roger Williams rebuked them and they would have banished him if they could. The views I expressed about them are not my concoctions, but are indeed the opinion of historians.

To all:
I was asked to produce an example of one who had fallen from faith in Christ back into unbelief . As I said before I doubt that any amount of proof will suffice. However since I came across this in my devotional time this morning I will share it:

1 Tim 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. (NIV)

1 Tim 5:11 As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry .... 14 So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander.
15 Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan.  (NIV)

Over and over again the testimony of Jesus witnesses to the fact that created beings in heaven and on earth are free to choose to turn away from the love of God. Adam, Eve, and angels loved God and trusted Him at first. Then they departed from faith. They let desire to overcome “their dedication to Christ.” They turned away and followed the path of sin. From perfection of love and faith in God they turned away. 

The more I meditate over the Reformed doctrine of perseverance the more the Spirit shows me how unbiblical it is. And then there is the matter of Divine inconsistency that it implies. It is a truly astonishing doctrine that teaches that God granted to Adam, Eve, and angels more freedom than He gran