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Sin & Grace in the Christian Life
Posted: 20 August 2007 11:11 PM   [ Ignore ]  
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On this week’s White Horse Inn radio program (free download here), an important question with implications for current and former Adventists (and all Christians) is addressed: Is the salvation of Christians who die with unconfessed sin in peril? For those who grew up in the Adventist church and were taught the historic doctrine of the investigative judgment, the answer is an unequivocal “Yes”. Ellen White taught that if even one unconfessed sin was found in the heavenly record books, the professing Christian’s name would be blotted out from the Book of Life and their eternal salvation would be forfeited. For example, in The Great Controversy, she wrote, “All who have ever taken upon themselves the name of Christ must pass its searching scrutiny… Sins that have not been repented of and forsaken will not be pardoned, and blotted out of the books of record, but will stand to witness against the sinner in the day of God… Words once spoken, deeds once done, can never be recalled. Angels have registered both the good and the evil. The mightiest conqueror upon the earth can not call back the record of even a single day. Our acts, our words, even our most secret motives, all have their weight in deciding our destiny for weal or woe. Though they may be forgotten by us, they will bear their testimony to justify or to condemn.” (The Great Controversy, 1940 edition, page 552). Flying in the face of the biblical doctrine of justification by faith alone, Ellen White taught in this passage a view of justification held by many of her day–God will forgive past sins, but for the present and future you are on your own. Under this teaching, if a professed Christian commits a sin at any point, the sin will not be covered by Jesus unless the believer specifically recalls the sin and asks for forgiveness.

Maybe some of us think this teaching is a leftover relic of another era, or maybe it is completely confined to the historic branch of the Seventh-day Adventist church. But is this really the case? Reflecting on his own Christian (non-Adventist) upbringing, Michael Horton, one of the hosts of the White Horse Inn, says, “In the circles in which I was raised, salvation was free for something like the first 60 days. ... There was this ‘grace period’ where the convert was lavished with good news–Christ died for sinners, no matter how big, Jesus paid it all. Wow, Jesus paid it all! Ah yes, but then came the ‘all to Him I owe’ part...just after I thought it was all of Christ, all by grace alone, suddenly the bills showed up together with all the fine print.” Horton later asks the rhetorical question that inevitably arises when discussing God’s unmerited favor, “If grace is free, won’t that lead to laziness, or license [to sin]?” Horton concludes that this fear is the reason for all of the “fine print” which turns the good news upside down.

Exploring these ideas further, the staff of the White Horse Inn conducted interviews of random evangelical Christians attending a Christian conference, asking the question, “What happens to Christians who die with unconfessed sin?” The answers may sound very familiar to some of us with ties to the historic Adventist church.

Continue reading...

“What happens to Christians who die with unconfessed sin?”

First answer: “Uh...unconfessed sin...I think they’re in trouble.”

Second answer: “I think they’re going to hell.”

Third answer: “He [Jesus] knows we’re gonna mess up...but if we’re trying to do right and we’re trying to live right and for the right reasons, then I believe we’re really going to go to heaven.”

Fourth answer: “I do believe there is a common grace, and there’s also specific grace, and I believe if someone is a follower of Christ, and they happen to die before they said their last prayer, I’m sure God is a little more understanding than we make Him out to be.”

Fifth answer: “I know there are some people who believe that the moment you sin, you lose your salvation. I don’t believe that you immediately lose your salvation. I believe that if you die with unconfessed sin as a believer...there are two judgments...some of our works will be burned up and there are believers who will be saved as through fire, but they’re still saved...I think there are different degrees of reward in heaven just as there are different degrees of punishment in hell.”

Sixth answer: “Unconfessed sin? We go to hell.”

Seventh answer: “A lot of Christians still have problems and faults, but Jesus told us that we’re not under condemnation.”

Eighth answer: “Only the Lord knows, and He knows our hearts, and I would never want to stand in judgment of anyone else–only God would know what their eternal salvation would be.”

Ninth answer: “I really believe that God only knows the answer to that.”

Tenth answer: “If I’ve done everything that I know to do, intellectually and spiritually, according to His word, then God will take care of the rest–that’s what He promised.”

Eleventh answer: “There’s lots of sins I’ve committed that I haven’t confessed. God sees all of those and they are washed in the blood of Jesus Christ...we need to confess our sins regularly, but every Christian has sins that they have not confessed and if you die without confessing every little sin, surely you will be covered by the blood of Jesus Christ.”

Twelfth answer: “I think we’re all sinners...if you get hit by a bus and you committed a sin the second before you die...I don’t think God looks at you and says, ‘Whoops, missed one! Whoops, send him downstairs.’ I think God looks at your heart–he looks at your heart and actions together.”

Listening to these answers makes one wonder whether these Christians believe that God grades on a curve, but of course, He does not. He holds us to the highest standards of righteousness and only perfection will suffice (Matthew 5:48). He does not give us an “A for effort” or give us a free pass to heaven because we had “good intentions”. As shown by the last answer above, some hold to the hope that Jesus “looks at the heart” to see our good intentions. But even if the basis for our salvation is limited to the condition of our hearts, the Bible says we are doomed: “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?” (Jeremiah 17:9 ESV)

Returning to Ellen White for a moment, here is what she wrote in 1890 about the relationship between human effort and God’s grace:

“...when it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man’s best service, and he makes up for the deficiency with his own divine merit” (The Signs of the Times, (ST June 16, 1890).

While this quote is concerning enough on its own merits, it was subsequently used to support a works-based system of salvation in the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary under the explanation of, ironically enough, Romans 8:1. “The good news of the gospel is that Christ came to condemn sin, not sinners (John 3:17; Rom. 8:3). To those who believe and accept the generous provisions of the gospel and who in faith commit themselves to lives of loving obedience, Christ offers justification and freedom. There may yet be deficiencies in the believer’s character, but ‘when it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man’s best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit’ (ST June 16, 1890). For such there is no condemnation (John 3:18).”

The parallels between the evangelical Christians quoted above and the statements of Ellen White are difficult to miss. Both place the burden of salvation at least in part upon the sinner, effectively diluting God’s grace. If grace requires some application by the sinner in order to cover sins, then, as Paul says, “grace is no longer grace” (Romans 11:6). All who teach such a method of salvation effectively offer grace with one hand while taking it away with the other, implying that Jesus’ blood is sufficient to cover sins, so long as the sinner makes the application of it. Such teaching effectively subjects the work of Jesus to the effort of man, elevating the sinner into the office of co-savior.

Underlying much of this teaching is a subtle denial of original sin. The Bible says that by one man (Adam), the whole world is in slavery to sin (Romans 5:12). The Psalmist echoes this, saying, “I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.” (Psalm 51:5). Ephesians 2:1-3 says that we arrive in this world “dead in our sins” and are by default, “children of wrath”.

If we must make continual application of Jesus’ blood by remembering unconfessed sins, we effectively deny the doctrine of original sin. Our belief is that by praying for forgiveness each time we sin, we will be restored to the perfection of Adam and thus, for a time, be fit for translation into heaven. But if Adam’s original sin is still standing against us, no amount of our own efforts in remembering unconfessed sin will ever be enough. Even if we remembered all of our sin, we would still have Adam’s sin to deal with–the sin the Psalmist says was already present in our mother’s womb. Sin is therefore a condition of our fallen humanity, not just a cosmetic defect.

This situation requires more than just human effort, it requires divine intervention. Just as by one man sin entered the world, so too by one Man does sin leave–through the blood of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:12-17). “For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.” (Romans 5:19 ESV) The good news is that forgiveness does not depend upon our effort to remember unconfessed sins, but solely upon Jesus and His perfect saving work. This is indeed blessed news for those who have failed miserably to keep themselves clean by exercising their memory of sins in prayer.

Let us live and be motivated by this good news! If our faith is in Him, Jesus has paid it all, and nothing more is owed!

In his concluding remarks, Horton summarizes the problem and offers words of hope. “Stop thinking of yourself as if it’s you AND God. It’s not you and God, it’s you in Christ who is God and man. God sees you in Christ, and because you are in Christ, He sees you as righteous. That’s the good news not only for the beginning of the Christian life, it’s the good news for the middle of the Christian life, and it’s the good news for the end of the Christian life. If you die with that message in your heart and in your mind, and just throw out all the “fine print” that you got in all the sermons that told you “no payments until [later]"–if you just throw all that stuff out [and] cling to Christ...you will die well. And if you will die well, you will live well.”

We end the same way Horton does, reflecting upon Edward Fisher’s words from his book, The Marrow of Modern Divinity.

The law says, “Thou art a sinner, and therefore thou shalt be damned,” (Romans 7:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:12).

But the gospel says, No; “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners”; and therefore, “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, (1 Timothy 1:15, Acts 16:31).

Again the law says, “Knowest thou not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God; be not deceived,” (1 Corinthians 6:9) And therefore thou being a sinner, and not righteous, shalt not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the gospel says, “God has made Christ to be sin for thee who knew no sin; that thou mightest be made the righteousness of God in him, who is the Lord thy righteousness,” (Jeremiah 23:6).

Again the law says, “Pay me what thou owest me, or else I will cast thee into prison,” (Matthew 18:28,30).

But the gospel says, “Christ gave himself a ransom for thee,” (1 Timothy 2:6); “and so is made redemption unto thee,” (1 Corinthians 1:30).

Again the law says, “Thou hast not continued in all that I require of thee, and therefore thou art accursed,” (Deuteronomy 27:6).

But the gospel says, “Christ hath redeemed thee from the curse of the law, being made a curse for thee,” (Galatians 3:13).

Again the law says, “Thou are become guilty before God, and therefore shalt not escape the judgment of God,” (Romans 3:19, Romans 2:3).

But the gospel says, “The Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment to the Son” (John 5:12).

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Posted: 20 August 2007 05:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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Thanks Greg for posting this.

Yes I agree. The WHI program last night was truly an eye opener. When I heard those evangelical responses I thought I was in the SDA church.

I have quoted this before from Michael Horton, but it bears repeating, and see if Horton’s experience is similar to how we were taught as SDAs:

“I was raised in a solid Christian home, with the nurture of daily devotions and the simple piety of believing parents, they offered me a warm, supportive meaningful environment. But in my teenage years, the same cliches, slogans, and experiences which had provided a sense of being “in” and of belonging to a group, began to appear shallow and trite. The rules which I had never questioned began to choke me. My Christian school became my prison. In my senior year in High School, I had a Bible instructor who took particular delight in enumerating the things for which we could be lost. If, for instance we were to die with an unconfessed sin, we would be eternally lost. The implications haunted me, and since I knew I was not good enough, it continued to have a serious effect. What if I screwed up some Saturday night and Jesus came back before I could walk down the aisle on Sunday AGAIN! What if I couldn’t remember a particular sin in order to confess it? There were so many ways I could lose my soul!”
----------------------------------------------------
The above was exactly how the gospel was taught to me.

I am convinced that the entire Christian church needs to be evangelized. There are so few who really understand the gospel. A full understanding of the gospel will only liberate a soul and not keep it in bondage.

Stan

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Posted: 20 August 2007 08:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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Amen.

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Posted: 21 August 2007 01:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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Thanks Greg for raising this very important topic. In reading the Westminster Confession recently I noticed this item under “Of Repentance Unto Life”:

[quote author="Westminster Confession"] V. Men ought not to content themselves with a general repentance, but it is every man’s duty to endeavor to repent of his particular sins, particularly.

I relate completely to the yo-yo experience many of us have either had, or at least been exposed to, that the Christian life consists of a continuous cycle of sinning, confession, and repentance.  But it doesn’t seem right to me that our sins, even after conversion, can go unconfessed and unrepented of. And this Westminster Confession statement seems in line with the idea that particular sins must be confessed particularly.  Maybe the Westminster Confession believes this is only done once, at conversion, or that the confession for particular sins is not really binding or determinative of whether one is in a state of grace, or lost.

What say ye about this Westminster Confession statement and the concerns of the White Horse Inn hosts?

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Posted: 21 August 2007 01:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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I would also note the letters to the seven churches in Revelation 2-3 in which several of the churches are admonished to repent or face judgment (Revelation 2:5,16,21; Revelation 3:3,19). These passages seem pretty clear that the churches consisted of saved individuals and yet because of sin in their midst, were warned by God to repent. 

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Posted: 21 August 2007 01:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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Hi Glenn,

Ohisashiburi! ("Long time no see” in Japanese)

The basic idea, I believe, is that Christ covers all your sins.  Perhaps you have chances to repent for every one, perhaps you don’t.  Most likely, you don’t.  Most likely there are sins you committed that you didn’t even know about.  I know this for myself because there are probably countless people I have hurt without realizing it.

The problem is that EGW emphasized things in such a way as to suggest that anything unconfessed will keep you from salvation.  This has resulted in generations of Adventists frantically worrying about their whole lives and trying to confess every thing.

In contrast, after resting in Jesus as my Sabbath-rest and being baptized in the Holy Spirit, something awesome happened: where the Lord wanted me to confess/repent, He brought it to mind.  Often they were places I didn’t know, and sometimes they were ones I knew but that I had ignored.  The Spirit took me there.  And most often it was because after I confessed/repented, healing could come. 

He did this especially with relationships in my family, and especially for the sake of my own heart.  Bitterness, judgment and unforgiveness are like poisons in the body, or like emphysema which chokes out the air from the lungs.  By leading me to confession & repentance, God set me free

Often because I had been upset at someone, I could not forget what they had done, and I kept replaying it over and over in my head, thinking of what they should have done, what I should have said, what I should have done, etc.  I was stuck in bitter “re-play” or thinking of how I could have better answered the situation.  Or I wanted others to identify with me about it.  God set me free from this.  I had wanted to make the people “pay” for what they had done, but in my desire for that I was actually a prisoner to those people.  I didn’t realize it, but they held power over my mind and my heart.  My heart was trapped by what they had done.  And since I thought I could only forgive only if they apologized, I put my heart’s freedom in their hands.  As long as they didn’t apologize, my heart remained in a bad condition. 

But God set me free by showing me that just as He died to forgive me (without me apologizing), I could also forgive them and release them from having to “pay”.  And in that process my own heart was released!  What happened in the past no longer had the power to hurt me, and I did not have to dwell on it any longer.  And more than that, I was free to love the people who had hurt me—and I began to understand God’s love, His love for us who have hurt Him in so many ways.

What I’m saying is that God can do this for us.  We live by the Law of the Spirit now, not by a list of confessed/unconfessed sins.  Our sins are not blotted out because we confess them, but they are blotted out because of the blood of Jesus Christ.  For any sin still remaining in our life, we can trust the Holy Spirit to convict us of it and show us His door to freedom from it.  We are not saved by having a certain minimum-acceptable amount of sins nor are we saved by being perfectly sinless (for we are not).  We are saved by Christ’s sinlessness.  The issue of confessing/repenting for individual sins is something that the Spirit of God will work out in you (or out of you) in His time and in His way after salvation.  Because He has already saved us and put His Spirit in us, the Spirit puts to death the deeds and sins of the flesh and our old self.

Blessings in Jesus’ love,
Ramone

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Posted: 21 August 2007 04:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?” (Jeremiah 17:9 ESV)

Is this the state of the renewed heart of the born again Christian (John 3:3,5) who has had his stony heart replaced with a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26) upon which is written the law of God (Jeremiah 31:33) and who is a new creature in Christ (II Corinthians 5:17)?

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Posted: 21 August 2007 06:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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Hey Glenn,

I’ll look into your question in more detail later, but I think Jeremiah 17:9 refers to the general condition of every person’s heart, whether this is pre- or post-conversion. As we know, the apostle Paul wrestled with indwelling sin even after his conversion experience (Romans 7, cf. Galatians 5:16-24). While we are justified by grace and born again of the Holy Spirit (John 3:1-8), our flesh remains sinful and God’s work of sanctification continues.

If you’ll listen to the White Horse Inn program I linked to above, you’ll hear how they use Jeremiah 17:9. This specifically comes up whenever a Christian says, “I know I am a sinner, but I’m hoping Jesus will look at my heart” as if the heart will somehow recommend them to Christ. The point is that if the condition of our hearts is the standard by which we are measured “fit” for heaven, none of us would make it there! Jesus doesn’t save those whom He deems “safe to save”, otherwise we would be saved by something of our own work, and not by grace alone.

In my understanding, the other texts you mentioned describe the work of God in the life of a person whom He has already justified. This is the ongoing work of sanctification that continues over the entire lifetime of the believer, until that day when our perishable bodies are replaced by glorified and imperishable ones. The apostle Paul describes this progression in Romans 8:30 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-58.

Greg

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Posted: 21 August 2007 06:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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[quote author="Greg"] If you’ll listen to the White Horse Inn program I linked to above, you’ll hear how they use Jeremiah 17:9.

I appreciate your linking to programs like this, but I probably couldn’t devote sufficient attention to it at work and I am the last person on the planet who has dial-up service at home, meaning that downloading any video or audio programs of any significant length is extremely time consuming. Any transcripts anywhere of these programs?

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Posted: 21 August 2007 06:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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Glenn...dial-up? You’ve got to be kidding! wink

Here’s an idea–download at work, burn to a CD, and listen at home. If you need step-by-step instructions, send me a private message or email.

Unfortunately, I’m not aware of any White Horse Inn transcripts.

Greg

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Posted: 21 August 2007 06:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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[quote author="Greg"] This specifically comes up whenever a Christian says, “I know I am a sinner, but I’m hoping Jesus will look at my heart” as if the heart will somehow recommend them to Christ. The point is that if the condition of our hearts is the standard by which we are measured “fit” for heaven, none of us would make it there! Jesus doesn’t save those whom He deems “safe to save”, otherwise we would be saved by something of our own work, and not by grace alone.

I don’t want to be dogmatic on this point because I don’t understand it completely, but regarding the heart, God also said He looked not on the outward appearances but on the heart (1 Samuel 16:7) and called David a “man after My own heart” (1 Samuel 13:14).  So I don’t think a Christian’s wanting God to look at his heart is being an unscriptural or spurious kind of thing. There appears evidence that God does in fact make such an inquiry (Revelation 2:23).  David also talks about the importance to God of a man’s heart (Psalm 51:10,17) and asks God in Psalms 139:23-24 to search his heart.

Paul also described the challenges of the born again experience as a war between the flesh and the spirit, the latter being a euphamism for the heart or mind (the desire or intent).  Jesus Himself spoke of His disciples’ falling asleep in Gesthemane as a matter of “the spirit was willing but the flesh was weak” (Matthew 26:41).  In other words, as Paul notes in Romans 7:18, the desire to do well is there, but the power to carry that out is not.

In any event, from your summary, the hosts of White Horse Inn don’t appear to believe that Christians need to repent of sin. This is a most unusual idea, from my perspective.

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Posted: 21 August 2007 07:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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My own personal view is that the sin, confess and repent cycle carries with it the risk that my confession and repentance may be for the purposes of obtaining absolution but may not be 100% completely, absolutely sincere. Am I really sorry I committed that sin or neglected my duty in this or that area, and if I really am sorry, and I sorry for the right reasons?

So, while scripturally I see a basis and need for continual repentence, such a process also presents a risk of nominal confessional steps, just to get the books wiped clean, etc.

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Posted: 21 August 2007 07:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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[quote author="glennspring"]
In any event, from your summary, the hosts of White Horse Inn don’t appear to believe that Christians need to repent of sin. This is a most unusual idea, from my perspective.

Glenn, this is not their position. Their position is that it is solely by the blood of Jesus that anyone can inherit the Kingdom. All of us will die with unconfessed sin, but even this sin is covered by the blood of Jesus.

Does this mean we should not confess our (particular) sins? Of course not. Our continual repentance and supplication in prayer is the God-ordained way in which He sanctifies us and brings us into union with and dependence upon Him. We do not appropriate His forgiveness in prayer because He has already given it. But by the same token, we do not stop despairing of our own unrighteousness and falling at His feet, for we know that even one of our sins is enough to condemn us. That He has forgiven not only one sin, but all sin is the motivation for continual repentance in the face of our continual and abhorrent sin.

One of the quotes from this White Horse Inn program was by pastor Kim Riddlebarger, who said (paraphrasing), “Christians are the most self-dissatisfied people on the planet, because we constantly see our sin in the ever-exceeding light of Jesus.” Just as the better your TV resolution becomes, the more flaws you see, the closer we get to Jesus Christ, the more we see our sin the way He does. It is this despair of self-righteousness which drives us to our knees in continual prayer.

Your other points about God looking on the heart are well-taken.

Greg

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Posted: 21 August 2007 08:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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Well I finally did listen to the program--don’t tell my boss--and I enjoyed it. Sounds like something worth listening to regularly.

However, I do think they neglect a lot of Bible passages that would add some texture to their discussion. For example, the one host made the remark that while some Christians claim to want God to look at their hearts, that he, the host, certainly didn’t want God to do so, based on passages such as Jeremiah 17:9. But given the other verses that do carry more positive connotations for God seeing the heart (like the ones I identified above), I would think this host would probably want to “revise and extend” his remarks.

There was also a discussion having to do with the Holy Spirit leaving or not leaving when a Christian sins. While I was sympathetic to the posture the hosts took about this--that the Holy Spirit doesn’t just pack up His bags and leave--I later thought about examples from the Bible such as Samson and King Saul. Both were annointed by God, both were granted the Spirit, or at least described as being beneficiaries of the Spirit coming into them or descending on them for special work (to destroy one’s enemies in the case of Samson--see chapter 15:14), but both lost that Spirit when they disobeyed (Judges 16:20; 1 Samuel 15:22-23; 1 Samuel 28:6, 15-18). Samson of course got it back in the final act of revenge against his and Israel’s enemies at his death (Judges 16:22,28).

Finally, the one passage the hosts did recognize as perhaps conflicting with their position--a passage I believe from Paul having to do with no adulterers or stealers, etc, entering the kingdom of God--they seemed to say in response that such verses applied to those who did such things without remorse or repentance. But that to me just confirmed the idea that what separates God’s people from unregenerated sinners was that Christians actually do come to experience remorse for their sins and repent of them. (I may not have the flow of this segment and their response exactly right, but I thought that was the gist of it).

Anyway, it seems to me that when investigating a topic such as this, more of the entire Bible account should be brought to bear on the matter, and more examples, and counter-examples considered.

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Posted: 21 August 2007 04:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
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Glenn wrote:

“There was also a discussion having to do with the Holy Spirit leaving or not leaving when a Christian sins. While I was sympathetic to the posture the hosts took about this--that the Holy Spirit doesn’t just pack up His bags and leave--I later thought about examples from the Bible such as Samson and King Saul. Both were annointed by God, both were granted the Spirit, or at least described as being beneficiaries of the Spirit coming into them or descending on them for special work (to destroy one’s enemies in the case of Samson--see chapter 15:14), but both lost that Spirit when they disobeyed (Judges 16:20; 1 Samuel 15:22-23; 1 Samuel 28:6, 15-18). Samson of course got it back in the final act of revenge against his and Israel’s enemies at his death (Judges 16:22,28”
---------------------------------------------------------

Hey Glenn,

I am glad you got to listen to the WHI, so now you know what we are talking about. The four hosts interact so well with each other, and these guys definitely prove that theology is never boring. Michael Horton is the author of “Putting Amazing Back Into Grace”, the book I promised to send you, and I thought I had another spare copy, but I don’t, but I will still get you a copy of that book, it will just take a little more time.

The texts you referred to above are in an OT context.

While believers before the cross were saved by grace in the same way that believers are saved since Calvary, it wasn’t until after Pentecost that the Holy Spirit came to indwell every believer. We have to take the very clear statements of Jesus and the apostles in the epistles as our final doctrine for New Covenant believers, as it wasn’t until Christ came and made the sacrifice that we now have a much clearer understanding of the gospel.

However, we have a much clearer statement with regard to King David in Psalm 51:10-12

10(T) Create in me a(U) clean heart, O God,
and(V) renew a right spirit within me.
11(W) Cast me not away from your presence,
and take not(X) your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the JOY of your salvation,
and uphold me with a willing spirit”.
-------------------------------------------------
Notice that David said “restore to me the JOY of your salvation”. So David did not pray to have his salvation restored, but the joy of salvation.

When a true believer lives in willful sin, then, yes he is rightly plagued by doubts of his salvation, and there is no joy, but when he repents, then the joy and assurance is brought back. This does not mean a person loses his salvation.

What if a person dies suddenly while committing a sinful act? Does the fact that he does not have time to repent of his sin mean that he has lost his salvation?

When we are adopted into God’s family, God disciplines His sons so that they are brought into closer relationship with him. But a person does not go back and forth from saved to lost. This just doesn’t square with the clearest texts of scripture.

Stan

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Posted: 22 August 2007 12:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
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[quote author="Stan"] The texts you referred to above (Samson, King Saul) are in an OT context .

While believers before the cross were saved by grace in the same way that believers are saved since Calvary, it wasn’t until after Pentecost that the Holy Spirit came to indwell every believer . We have to take the very clear statements of Jesus and the apostles in the epistles as our final doctrine for New Covenant believers, as it wasn’t until Christ came and made the sacrifice that we now have a much clearer understanding of the gospel.

I’m not sure what you mean here. The passages in Judges and Samuel pretty clearly state that these men received the Spirit, even if only for a short time. 

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