Administrator’s note: This post has been moved to a new thread and re-named to better reflect the viewpoint of its author, Eugene Shubert (shubee). For those following this discussion, Mr. Shubert believes salvation belongs to those who are able to pass an “investigative judgment” of good works. The Bible teaches that nobody is righteous enough to be saved by good works, and sinners are freely justified by faith alone: “Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness...” (Romans 4:4-5, see also Romans 3:21-26, Galatians 2:16, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-6). Mr. Shubert is teaching the opposite of this, in direct contradiction to God’s Word. Let the buyer beware. -Greg

[quote author="Stan Ermshar"]The Investigative Judgment outright denies salvation by grace alone through faith alone on account of Christ alone. SDAs along with many Pentecostals and Roman Catholics ... live their lives in bondage to some type of works based system.

Jesus taught the Investigative Judgment in Matthew 25:14-30. John MacArthur explains that the kingdom of heaven in this passage refers to all those who identify themselves with Christ. “Some are true believers and some are false.” John MacArthur understands clearly that the professed believers are investigated and those who don’t measure up are separated from those who do. http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg2376.htm

It’s easy to guess where the poorly performing professed believers that don’t measure up go (Matthew 25:30).

As I see it, Jesus taught Lordship salvation (all masterfully explained in The Gospel According to Jesus by John MacArthur) and the biggest problem is that the free-to-be-disobedient Christians, who interpret the Investigative Judgment as a soul-sucking, assurance-robbing, legalistic, righteousness by works gospel, don’t seem to understand that Jesus spoke a very plain parable about their refusal to submit to His Lordship: Luke 19:11-27.

Shubee,

If God bestows the gift of salvation on a sinner, apart from works of the law (Romans 3:21-26, Romans 4:4-5, Galatians 2:16, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-6), why would he need to “investigate” whether they are worthy of receiving the gift after it has already been given? He gave the gift, he knows who his sheep are (John 10:14), and nobody can pluck them out of his hands (John 10:28). Jesus said, “whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life” (John 5:24 ESV).

Certainly the life of a redeemed sinner will reflect good works which God has prepared beforehand for him to do (Ephesians 2:10, Galatians 5:13-14, Romans 8:4-5, Titus 3:14), but these works do not become the basis for “testing” whether someone is fit for heaven. John 5:24 is clear, and so are a host of other Bible texts you overturn with your narrow exegesis of a single parable. That you call John MacArthur in as your chief witness–a man who knows the Investigative Judgment doctrine well and by no means is teaching it in The Gospel According to Jesus–shows how narrowly you are reading even him to support your preconceived ideas.

The height of irony is your admission (on another thread) that nobody has made a “successful exposition” of the Investigative Judgment, including yourself. To continue discussing it and calling in witnesses who couldn’t possibly understand it (since nobody has successfully described it) is an exercise in self-contradiction and futility.

Greg

[quote author="Greg"]Shubee,

If God bestows the gift of salvation on a sinner, apart from works of the law (Romans 3:21-26, Romans 4:4-5, Galatians 2:16, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-6), why would he need to “investigate” whether they are worthy of receiving the gift after it has already been given?

Because there are commonsense expectations attached to God’s forgiveness. Matthew 18:21-35.

[quote author="Greg"]He gave the gift, he knows who his sheep are (John 10:14), and nobody can pluck them out of his hands (John 10:28).

I agree that it’s impossible for anyone who fits the description of “His sheep” to lose their salvation.

“I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” (John 10:1-5 NIV).

”My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.” (John 10:27 NIV).

[quote author="Greg"]Jesus said, “whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life” (John 5:24 ESV).

The New Kings James Version of the Bible and the New American Standard Bible are two excellent literal translations. Consider how these excellent Bible translations translate John 3:19 and John 5:29:

“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.” (John 3:19 NASB)

“And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.” (John 3:19 NKJV)

“and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.” (John 5:29 NASB)

“and come forth–those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.” (John 5:29 NKJV)

The issue with the Greek word translated judgment in John 3:19, John 5:24 and John 5:29 is that it can just as easily be translated as condemnation. See this lexicon. Therefore, there is no reason why John 5:24 can’t be translated:

“He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life” (John 5:24 KJV).

[quote author="Greg"]Certainly the life of a redeemed sinner will reflect good works which God has prepared beforehand for him to do (Ephesians 2:10, Galatians 5:13-14, Romans 8:4-5, Titus 3:14), but these works do not become the basis for “testing” whether someone is fit for heaven.

We are saved by grace through faith and judged by works. The Bible is very clear about that. Romans 2:5-8.

[quote author="Greg"]John 5:24 is clear, and so are a host of other Bible texts you overturn with your narrow exegesis of a single parable.

The Greek of John 5:24 doesn’t overturn Matthew 25:14-30, Luke 19:11-27 and Matthew 18:21-35. Furthermore, I didn’t exegete Matthew 25:14-30. I am merely accepting MacArthur’s exegesis, which you call narrow. You are of course free to label MacArthur’s exegesis both narrow and confused but you have no rational argument to condemn Adventists for agreeing with MacArthur on a clear teaching of Jesus.

[quote author="Greg"]That you call John MacArthur in as your chief witness

I believe that I’m calling Jesus my chief witness.

[quote author="Greg"]–a man who knows the Investigative Judgment doctrine well and by no means is teaching it in The Gospel According to Jesus

I didn’t say that John MacArthur is teaching the Investigative Judgment in The Gospel According to Jesus. I said that John MacArthur is teaching the Investigative Judgment in the link provided: http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg2376.htm

[quote author="Greg"]–shows how narrowly you are reading even him to support your preconceived ideas.

Likewise, I think that your misreading of my words demonstrates your strong attachment to error.

[quote author="Greg"]The height of irony is your admission (on another thread) that nobody has made a “successful exposition” of the Investigative Judgment, including yourself.

I don’t consider that to be an accurate quote. I wrote: “Adventists certainly get the credit for stumbling onto this important teaching and Ellen White wrote plenty of accurate statements about it, but, to date, a satisfying exposition of Scripture that reveals the essence of the IJ, so as to answer the criticisms of competent scholars, is yet to be written.”

The truth is that I could write a “satisfying exposition of Scripture that reveals the essence of the IJ, so as to answer the criticisms of competent scholars.” I have already written out the answer to deeper mysteries, to which the IJ is just a trivial corollary, but Seventh-day Adventists are so deeply Laodicean that they don’t care one bit about new light. It’s not clear to me that your spiritual condition is any better. You profess to respect John MacArthur but I see no evidence of how that translates into you actually understanding or agreeing with MacArthur’s exegesis of Matthew 25:14-30.

Shubee,

I am unclear about which version of the Investigative Judgment doctrine you are defending, since John MacArthur’s exegesis of Matthew 25:14-30 starkly contrasts anything resembling the Adventist understanding.

Let’s have a look at what he says in his commentary on the passage. The commentary is his fullest treatment of the text, unlike the sermon transcript you linked. The two are certainly in harmony, but the commentary gives more detail than the sermon.

[quote author="John MacArthur"]
Jesus made clear that the visible church will always include both genuine and spurious Christians. Every church has tares that, except to God, are indistinguishable from the wheat. Their true character cannot be determined by what they do outwardly because unbelievers can be quite active in the church and seemingly interested in its work. As far as the Lord is concerned, however, the work they do is not in His service or for the benefit of His kingdom. Whatever such a person may do with the abilities he has from the Lord, they are spiritually unproductive and might as well be hidden away. In the kingdom of God, the realm of His sovereign rule–whether in the visible earthly church or in the millennial kingdom–there will be no acceptable service offered to Him except that offered by true believers.

Therefore when Christ returns, He will figuratively take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents. As He had declared on at least one previous occasion (see Matt. 13:12), Jesus now said again: “To everyone who has shall more be given, and he shall have an abundance; but the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.”

Those who demonstrate by their spiritual fruitfulness that they belong to God will be given even greater opportunity to bear fruit for Him. But those who demonstrate by their unproductiveness that they do not belong to God will lose even the benefits they once had. Such a person does not have any true blessings from God because he has made them worthless through disuse. But the reality of what those blessings could have been will be given to someone who has proved his genuineness. The divine principle is that those who trust in Christ will gain everything, and those who do not trust in Him will lose everything.

The third slave was not simply unfaithful but faithless. A true Christian who wastes his abilities, spiritual gifts, and opportunities will have his work “burned up, [and] he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire” (1 Cor. 3:15). The person represented by this slave, however, has no faith at all and therefore no saving relationship to God. No matter how much he may appear to have been blessed by God and to have served Him, one day he will hear from the Lord’s own lips the devastating words, “I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness” (Matt. 7:23).

Source: MacArthur New Testament Commentary; bold is retained from original, underlining is mine.

Having established that MacArthur links (correctly) the third servant with one who never had saving faith, let’s see who MacArthur believes does have saving faith, turning to his commentary on Romans 4:3.

[quote author="John MacArthur"]
Even though Abraham’s repeated disobedience was sinful and brought harm to himself and others, God even used that disobedience to glorify Himself. Those acts of disobedience testify that, contrary to rabbinical teaching, Abraham was sovereignly chosen by God for His own divine reasons and purposes, not because of Abraham’s faithfulness or righteousness. Abraham was chosen by God’s sovereign, elective grace, not because of his works or even because of his faith. His faith was acceptable to God only because God graciously reckoned, or counted, it as righteousness. It was not the greatness of Abraham’s faith that saved him but the greatness of the gracious Lord in whom he placed his faith.

Faith is never the basis or the reason for justification, but only the channel through which God works His redeeming grace. Faith is simply a convicted heart reaching out to receive God’s free and unmerited gift of salvation.

Source: MacArthur New Testament Commentary; bold is retained from original, underlining is mine.

This explanation by MacArthur is wholly incompatible with any work of “investigative judgment” where God must determine the believer’s “fitness for heaven”. Because salvation is God’s gift to give, he knows who will respond in faith and who will not. He does not need to conduct a sham trial where he opens the books to see whether someone has remembered every sin or improved every opportunity (as Adventists teach) so that the salvation may be given as a reward for good works. Unless we are willing to fundamentally change the meaning of what Adventists call the Investigative Judgment, we cannot rightly conclude that MacArthur is supporting their teaching. If someone changes the meaning of “Investigative Judgment” (as you appear to be doing, Mr. Shubert), without offering a “successful exposition” of what they’re even talking about, they are at least guilty of propagating confusion and playing semantic games. In short, you cannot have MacArthur in your corner to validate the Investigative Judgment when you have not even defined what you mean by the term and MacArthur’s teaching unequivocally contradicts the historic Adventist doctrine.

Any depiction of the judgment that makes the outcome unknown to the believer today does not square with the Bible. Adventists have taught a version of the judgment that paints such a picture, even arguing that because the Investigative Judgment began in 1844, it may already be over for Christ-followers who are living at this moment, leaving the believer completely unware of the outcome.

The Bible says something very different, giving the promise of assurance to the Christian today. Being so confident of this, the apostle John wrote: “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” (1 John 5:13 ESV) Commenting on this text, MacArthur says:

[quote author="John MacArthur"]
As has been clear throughout, the blessings of salvation and assurance are only for those who believe in the name of the Son of God (cf. the discussion of 3:23 in chapter 13 of this volume). God has guaranteed these blessings to Christians by giving them the Holy Spirit as a pledge (Eph. 1:14). John’s uncompromising presentation of the truth in absolute, unqualified terms, the relentless attacks of the false teachers, and the departure of some of the false believers (2:19) had shaken his readers. The apostle assured them that if they passed the doctrinal and practical tests, they could know for certain that they had eternal life.

In its most basic sense, eternal life is living forever with God in heaven (Matt. 25:46; Mark 10:30). But as noted in the discussion of 5:11 in the previous chapter of this volume, the term does not refer primarily to duration of life, but to quality of life. Eternal life is to know Jesus Christ (John 17:3), who Himself is eternal life (1 John 5:20), and to share in His life. It is a present possession, not merely a future hope (John 3:36; 5:24; 6:47, 54; 10:28; 1 John 3:15), though it is not fully manifested in this life. But there will come a day in the future when the eternal life believers already possess will no longer be incarcerated in their sinful, fallen flesh. On that glorious day, they will experience their “adoption as sons, the redemption of [the] body” (Rom. 8:23; cf. Phil. 3:21; 1 John 3:2). Then the glory of eternal life–the power of the Trinity that works within them (cf. Eph. 3:16-19)–will shine through them unclouded by their mortal bodies.

Source: MacArthur New Testament Commentary; bold is retained from original, underlining is mine.

There’s no question what MacArthur believes and what the Bible teaches about the security of the believer in the judgment. Those whom God has given the gift of salvation are already fitted for heaven–their “fitness” already without question because of the righteous blood-washed robes of Jesus Christ.

Greg

[quote author="Greg"]Shubee,

I am unclear about which version of the Investigative Judgment doctrine you are defending, since John MacArthur’s exegesis of Matthew 25:14-30 starkly contrasts anything resembling the Adventist understanding.

I am defending Christ’s version of the Investigative Judgment, as presented in Matthew 25:14-30, which you and the cult of former Adventists reject. MacArthur’s exegesis of it is an excellent baby step, sufficient to silence the most senseless criticisms that you embrace.

[quote author="Greg"]Let’s have a look at what he says in his commentary on the passage. The commentary is his fullest treatment of the text, unlike the sermon transcript you linked. The two are certainly in harmony, but the commentary gives more detail than the sermon.

Ok, so post his commentary on the whole passage, not just the snippet that you wanted to show.

[quote author="Greg"]Having established that MacArthur links (correctly) the third servant with one who never had saving faith, let’s see who MacArthur believes does have saving faith, turning to his commentary of Romans 4:3.

You’re avoiding the issue. Let the readers of this thread decide between you and me. Let’s consider MacArthur’s complete treatment of the Parable of the Talents (Matthew 25:14-30). What you posted is much shorter than MacArthur’s sermon. That’s going backwards. If the cult of former Adventists are too frightened to face MacArthur’s most detailed exposition of a simple parable, then what makes them think that they can stand before the Son of Man? Luke 21:36. 

[quote author="Shubee"]Let the readers of this thread decide between you and me.

My vote: “Greg wins, you lose”

Why? Simply because you claim that John MacArthur says in reality the opposite of what he’s saying in the quotations above. In effect you tacitly admit that MacArthur’s position above is in disagreement with yours, and this proves Greg’s point that “you cannot have MacArthur in your corner to validate the Investigative Judgment”.

But in order to have MacArthur in your corner, you claim that the position above is not in reality his position, and he actually says and interprets the Bible quite different than what he’s saying above. Implicitly you claim that MacArthur contradicts himself, and contradicts the points he made in the quotations provided by Greg.

Between someone who provides proofs of what MacArthur said, and someone who claims that MacArthur really does not say what he said, my vote is obvious on the part of him who’s consistent with facts.

Gabriel

Greg,

it is noble of you to try and discuss rationally with Shubee. I think however it is a futile gesture.

[quote author="GABRIEL PROKSCH"]Implicitly you claim that MacArthur contradicts himself, and contradicts the points he made in the quotations provided by Greg.

Yes, I accept the possibility that MacArthur contradicts himself. And this cult of former Adventists having to postulate MacArthur infallibility to keep from investigating a respectable exposition of Christ’s investigative judgment parable is very amusing.

What’s more amusing is your unwillingness to admit that MacArthur doesn’t support your assertions.

By the way, your blanket judgments concerning the spiritual condition of individuals here only further erodes your already vanishing credibility. If you have something constructive to say, you are welcome to do so, but your insistence on serving up insults with each post demonstrates extremely poor taste. Please limit such remarks to your own forum–thank you.

For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and sea creature, can be tamed and has been tamed by mankind, but no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison. ... Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom. (James 3:7-8, 13 ESV)

Greg

Shubee,

I, too, am a former Adventist who believes in the doctrine of righteousness by faith through grace alone apart from works of the law.  Would that qualify me as a cultist, as well?

Aaron

Wow! I am just coming on for the first time today. I see I have missed a lot.

Thanks Greg, Gabriel, Randy, and Aaron for your posts.

Shubee, It is becoming clearer why you get kicked off every forum except your own. For you to make the broadsweeping judgments about our characters is quite amazing.

By the way, have you really read the entire MacArthur book on “The gospel according to Jesus”? That book was written to counteract the false version of the gospel called “no lordship salvation.”

Most of us who regularly post here are fully behind Macarthur on the bulk of his teachings (except I personally disagree with him on eschatology.)

Are you saying above in your post that you do agree with MacArthur on the eternal security of the true believer?

And do you agree with his Calvinist views?

It is somewhat disingenious to come on here and represent MacArthur as believeing in the IJ of the saints. True believers will never come into judgment, but Ellen White says that all professed believers will have their book of record fully scrutinized to see if they are fit for heaven. This is not a doctrine that any credible Bible teacher teaches.

But you seem to try to make people believe that you have special insights on Bible truth for the SDA church?

Are you another prophet like Ellen White? That is what you seem to be claiming from several different threads I have read.

Stan

[quote author="Aaron"]Shubee,

I, too, am a former Adventist who believes in the doctrine of righteousness by faith through grace alone apart from works of the law.  Would that qualify me as a cultist, as well?

Aaron,

I don’t know if you really believe. There is a test that settles that. Have you read MacArthur’s exposition of Christ’s Investigative Judgment parable? Do you cringe at the point where Christ uses record books and accounting principles and conducts His divine endtime audit of professed believers?

[quote author="John MacArthur"]Jesus says in verse 19, “After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.” The word translated “reckon” is a commercial term meaning “to compare accounts.” The master of the household returned from his trip, and looked at his records to see how his servants did with their resources. That’s what will happen to all people when the Lord returns. He will take a look at the books to see what men have done with their opportunity to serve the Lord. What are you doing with the spiritual privileges you have? Are you serving the Lord as you should?

When the Lord returns, He will separate the true from the false. And He will look at the books to see how we managed His assets.

Did you notice from Christ’s Investigative Judgment parable that some professed believers will be accepted and that some professed believers will be rejected? Did you notice a judgment according to works? We will be judged for our efforts to build up Christ’s kingdom out of the many opportunities and abilities given us by God (Matthew 25:14-30) and for our love of those in the faith who are of low worldly rank (Matthew 25:31-46).

I think it’s clear from the testimonies of many cultic former Adventists that they reject the plain sense of Christ’s Investigative Judgment parable and therefore belong with those who reject Christ’s Lordship in Luke 19:11-27. Did you notice in Christ’s Investigative Judgment parable that righteous servants believe that the Lord’s audit /judgment according to works, is just and that the wicked professed believer thought that the requirement of having to do his master’s business was unjust? This complaint from lazy slaves is the basis for all the whining and crying about the Investigative Judgment.

[quote author="Stan Ermshar"]Shubee, ... have you really read the entire MacArthur book on “The gospel according to Jesus”?

Yes. And if you look at my profile on this forum you will see, under book recommendations, that The Gospel According to Jesus by John MacArthur is the only book I listed.

[quote author="Stan Ermshar"]Are you saying above in your post that you do agree with MacArthur on the eternal security of the true believer?

And do you agree with his Calvinist views?

I believe that The Gospel According to Jesus is the best exposition on the gospel available and that MacArthur is essentially right on Christ’s Investigative Judgment parable.

[quote author="Stan Ermshar"]It is somewhat disingenious to come on here and represent MacArthur as believeing in the IJ of the saints.

I have said very clearly that I am defending Christ’s version of the Investigative Judgment, as presented in Matthew 25:14-30, which you and the cult of former Adventists reject. I also said that MacArthur’s exegesis of it is an excellent baby step, sufficient to silence the most senseless criticisms that you embrace.

[quote author="Stan Ermshar"]True believers will never come into judgment, but Ellen White says that all professed believers will have their book of record fully scrutinized to see if they are fit for heaven.

You obviously don’t believe http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg2376.htm

[quote author="Stan Ermshar"]This is not a doctrine that any credible Bible teacher teaches.

I find MacArthur’s sermon on Christ’s Investigative Judgment parable to be very credible.

Greg,

Please change the title of this thread. The Seventh-day Adventist view is that we’re saved by grace through faith and judged by works.

My primary focus in this thread is Christ’s Investigative Judgment parable (Matthew 25:14-30).

Eugene, salvation by grace through faith is not what you are teaching, so the title of this thread is perfectly appropriate. When the sinner’s actions must be “investigated” to determine whether he is “fit for heaven”, salvation is no longer by grace and eternal life is a reward for good behavior instead of an unmerited gift of God.

Also, I’d like to take this opportunity to affirm that I also believe in salvation by works–not my works, but those of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Eugene, if you’d like to clarify your position by telling us what you think of the apostle Paul’s teaching on justification by faith alone (Romans 4:4-5, etc.) or the salvation of the thief on the cross (Luke 23:39-43), I will reconsider the title of this thread. And if you choose to respond, remember that you are a guest here, so please behave accordingly.

Greg

Mr. Shubert,

I agree 100 percent with what MacArthur teaches in “Gospel...”, and on many threads on here I have stated my belief in Lordship salvation which MacArthur teaches.

I cannot understand why you insist on holding to the traditional doctrine of the IJ which is based on a false vision in a cornfield. There is no reputable scholar who could come up with 1844 as the date Christ went from the Holy Place into the Most Holy Place.

The problem here is that I don’t believe you understand what Jesus meant by His teaching in John 3 about being born again. Since our new birth is not by our wills or the will of the flesh (John 1:13), but we are born of God, then this means that when God chooses to save us, He creates us fully anew, and gives us a resurrected soul. This means that our wills are changed, so that our new free will wants to obey God in everything. We cannot choose to be born physically, and we cannot choose to be born spiritually, but when God opens our spiritual eyes and gives us new birth, we are then one of His true sheep who can never be lost. When God does the saving and performs the miracle of resurrecting our dead souls, then, there is no way that that true believer will lose his salvation, because Jesus has made iron clad promises in John 5, 6, and 10, that a true sheep will not be lost.

What purpose would an IJ for the truly saved serve? God, who is sovereign knows His sheep by name, so the SDA IJ makes a mockery of God’s sovereignty and of His omniscience.

You are misinterpreting John MacArthur and you are confusing the true gospel of grace with Roman Catholicism’s false gospel of works. You sound just like the RCC scholar interviewed last night by Michael Horton on the radio show “White Horse Inn”, which can be listened to online at http://www.whitehorseinn.org.

You would be saying “Amen” to everything the Roman Catholic scholar said.

John MacArthur has called the false church of Rome “a front for the kingdom of Satan”, because of its works based gospel. Adventism, as I was taught it growing up is identical to RCC on works salvation.

However, I applaud you for reading MacArthur’s book, and I have noticed that many of my other SDA friends have read that book, and they think MacArthur believes exactly like them, but they are misinterpreting what he says, and they probably skip the chapter on Calvinism, which teaches predestination, and the eternal security of true believers, and that salvation is completely a work of God and is Monergistic--not synergistic as RCC, SDA, and Arminianism teaches. But a truly saved person will not trifle with the grace of God and live a life of disobedience.

Stan