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What Still Keeps us Apart?
Posted: 12 February 2007 10:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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Stan, I also found Phil Johnson’s blog entry to be thought-provoking.  He points out the fundamental problem of the Catholic idea of being the “true church” is really a confusion of organizational unity with Christian unity.

Johnson ends with this insightful comment about Protestants who end up becoming Catholics: “Having bought the notion that the unity Christ prayed for starts with organizational unity, these unsuspecting proselytes naturally conclude that whichever church has the most convincing pedigree must be the only church capable of achieving the unity Christ sought, and so they join up.”

I can’t help but see the parallels in Adventism here, because the notion of being the “true church” or “remnant church” is a thread of Adventist teaching running back to the very beginning of the movement.  Right from the start, the “little flock” was encouraged to leave their “apostate Protestant churches” (alternatively known as Babylon) and join the only group for whom the door of salvation was still open.  Later, when it became problematic to continue the shut door teaching, the concept of being the “remnant church” was developed from two proof texts (Revelation 12:17 and Revelation 19:10).

Leaving the problems of combining these two texts aside, the concept that any denomination or entity can be the “true” or “remnant” church is a completely false theological construct that leads to an inward group-centered focus and a false sense of security for the adherent of that group.  In Adventism, this comes out in the emphasis on Adventist distinctives such as the Sabbath, diet, eschatology, moralism, etc.  These distinctives are played over and over again for the faithful as evidence they are different from “non-remnant” Christians.  The second point is far more dangerous, because it makes joining Adventism a key step in one’s salvation, as if being listed on the membership rolls automatically qualifies one for salvation.  This leads to a false sense of security in being part of the group having the most truth and gives rise to a triumphalistic spirit while minimizing the importance of a personal profession of faith in Jesus Christ.

The fundamental problem is in the definition of what the Christian Church (capital C) really is.  The Church is not a building, a denomination, a sect or any ecclesial body.  The Church is the invisible body of believers found scattered throughout the world who can be identified by Jesus alone as those whom God has given Him. (John 6:35-40, John 10:14-18).  This key distinction is at the root of many, many theological problems and untold hostility between Christians.

Greg

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Posted: 13 February 2007 01:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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An interesting article and comments but I for one am highly offended that Teampyro couldn’t find it within themselves to mention us SDA’s as among those who lay claim to be THE true church. The Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Mormons get all the attention. (insert smiley icon here)

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Posted: 01 October 2007 05:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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Here is an excellent article by Robert Morey explaining why Roman Catholicism and Biblical Christianity are incompatible:

http://www.faithdefenders.com/ministry/articles/world_religions/roman_catholicism/Ten+Reasons+Why+Christians+and+Catholics+Do+Not+Agree.htm

Stan

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Posted: 25 June 2009 05:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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Stan Ermshar - 25 November 2006 01:50 PM

Welcome Guibox! Glad you are here.

Yes, there is a lot of sloppy “Protestantism” out there that is not really Biblical.

There is an important article to consider out there by John MacArthur:

http://www.gty.org/resources.php?section=transcripts&aid=231488

This may open all of our eyes with regard to the spirit of the papacy.

My problem with SDA’s criticism of RCC is the fact that they are also Roman with regard to Righteousness by Faith, except for the Desmond Ford wing, which seems to be dwindling.

I am looking forward though Guibox to your input. I may be too far removed from SDA to speak, but is the gospel proclaimed as Luther would proclaim it in the SDA church you attend?

Stan

I do not worry about if I am “Evangelical” in my beliefs on salvation.  I do not accept the claimed authority of Evangelicals to pronounce what or who is a “cult” or to be the arbiters of Bible truth in the Protestant world.

“by grace alone,” through “faith alone?” Does the Bible actually say that word ‘alone” or is that something being added by “men?”

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Posted: 25 June 2009 10:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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Protestant 101 - 25 June 2009 05:47 PM
Stan Ermshar - 25 November 2006 01:50 PM

Welcome Guibox! Glad you are here.

Yes, there is a lot of sloppy “Protestantism” out there that is not really Biblical.

There is an important article to consider out there by John MacArthur:

http://www.gty.org/resources.php?section=transcripts&aid=231488

This may open all of our eyes with regard to the spirit of the papacy.

My problem with SDA’s criticism of RCC is the fact that they are also Roman with regard to Righteousness by Faith, except for the Desmond Ford wing, which seems to be dwindling.

I am looking forward though Guibox to your input. I may be too far removed from SDA to speak, but is the gospel proclaimed as Luther would proclaim it in the SDA church you attend?

Stan

I do not worry about if I am “Evangelical” in my beliefs on salvation.  I do not accept the claimed authority of Evangelicals to pronounce what or who is a “cult” or to be the arbiters of Bible truth in the Protestant world.

“by grace alone,” through “faith alone?” Does the Bible actually say that word ‘alone” or is that something being added by “men?”

“Protestant 101”,

It is becoming increasingly obvious that you are no more Protestant than any “works righteousness” cult out there. Judging from your website, it seems that you have sympathy for the way Mormons and JW’s have been maligned--Is this not true?

I would appreciate an answer to why you want to defend LDS and JW?  Is it because historical SDAism is close in some ways to these groups?

Stan

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Posted: 26 June 2009 08:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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Stan Ermshar - 25 June 2009 10:48 PM
Protestant 101 - 25 June 2009 05:47 PM
Stan Ermshar - 25 November 2006 01:50 PM

Welcome Guibox! Glad you are here.

Yes, there is a lot of sloppy “Protestantism” out there that is not really Biblical.

There is an important article to consider out there by John MacArthur:

http://www.gty.org/resources.php?section=transcripts&aid=231488

This may open all of our eyes with regard to the spirit of the papacy.

My problem with SDA’s criticism of RCC is the fact that they are also Roman with regard to Righteousness by Faith, except for the Desmond Ford wing, which seems to be dwindling.

I am looking forward though Guibox to your input. I may be too far removed from SDA to speak, but is the gospel proclaimed as Luther would proclaim it in the SDA church you attend?

Stan

I do not worry about if I am “Evangelical” in my beliefs on salvation.  I do not accept the claimed authority of Evangelicals to pronounce what or who is a “cult” or to be the arbiters of Bible truth in the Protestant world.

“by grace alone,” through “faith alone?” Does the Bible actually say that word ‘alone” or is that something being added by “men?”

“Protestant 101”,

It is becoming increasingly obvious that you are no more Protestant than any “works righteousness” cult out there. Judging from your website, it seems that you have sympathy for the way Mormons and JW’s have been maligned--Is this not true?

I would appreciate an answer to why you want to defend LDS and JW?  Is it because historical SDAism is close in some ways to these groups?

Stan

Interesting how you try to seize on one little snippet from my site to make such a sweeping pronouncement about me.  it is also interesting to see how you again failed to answer my Bible questions/comments in favor of making me look like a “cult” person.  As I said, you are talking to someone who is not intimidated by your ravings about myself, or anyone else being a “cult.” Just because you say they are cult material does not make them so.  Neither you nor Evangelicals have the authority to do this to any group or individual. You have done it long enough and I am challenging this practice you have fallen in love with.

You accused me of “having sympathy for the way Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons have been maligned,” and therein I rest my case on that point.  You admit they have been maligned, and I am challenging you or anyone to prove from the Bible that that is OK for you/us to do.

You should stop using personal disagreements to avoid any in depth Biblical discussion, as you keep doing here.  I asked you above about “grace alone” and “faith alone.” Are you going to answer it or continue with the insults?

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Posted: 29 June 2009 11:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
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Groups that teach another gospel must be exposed.  The NT writers, under divine inspiration, devoted considerable segments of their writings to expose the heresies of their day.  Likewise, God’s people today have a mandate to preserve the purity of the Gospel.  Truly, the Gospel plus anything else is no longer the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Getting the Gospel right should be our top priority.  The five solas (sola scriptura, sola gratia, solus Christus, sola fide, and soli deo gloria) were the battle cry of the Protestant Reformation.  Moreover, they greatly enrich our lives by giving us a greater doxology for a better theology.  Post tenebras lux (After darkness, light)!

In awe of His saving grace,

Dennis Fischer

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Dennis J. Fischer
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Posted: 30 June 2009 05:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
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Dennis - 29 June 2009 11:32 AM

Groups that teach another gospel must be exposed.  The NT writers, under divine inspiration, devoted considerable segments of their writings to expose the heresies of their day.  Likewise, God’s people today have a mandate to preserve the purity of the Gospel.  Truly, the Gospel plus anything else is no longer the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Getting the Gospel right should be our top priority.  The five solas (sola scriptura, sola gratia, solus Christus, sola fide, and soli deo gloria) were the battle cry of the Protestant Reformation.  Moreover, they greatly enrich our lives by giving us a greater doxology for a better theology.  Post tenebras lux (After darkness, light)!

In awe of His saving grace,


Dennis Fischer

LOL, yes Dennis, you go ahead and “expose.” I will be waiting for that “better theology.”

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Posted: 30 June 2009 05:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
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Protestant 101,

You have come to the right place to find a better theology that results in a greater doxology.  To God alone belongs all the glory!

Dennis Fischer

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In His power and for His glory,

Dennis J. Fischer
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