Getting into a discussion on Facebook with a gentleman about salvation by works. I pointed out that his views sound alot like Pelagian. I would like to post his quotes and ask you how to explain and answer what he says. His basic premise is that if we are called not to sin and the bible says ‘he that sinneth is of the devil’ and all the other good ones, then we can and should ovecome all sin. I can’t argue with his scriptures and it seems to support sinless perfection (or that is the conclusion one can come to).
What say you all?
Here are his quotes:
“Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.” John 8:33
“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?” Romans 6:16
“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin in the transgression of the law. And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither knoweth Him.” 1 John 3:4-6
“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole WORLD lieth in WICKEDNESS.” 1 John 5:18,19
“For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary one to the other: so that ye CANNOT do the things that you would.” Galatians 5:17
The bible is clear, I am not claiming anything. Sin is sin, we have come to the point where we justify a little sin. But a little sin is still punishable by death. When Christ says we are free from sin, He means it. And when He says that whoever sins is a servant of sin, thats what He means. That is why in the same passage you posted (Romans 6) Paul says our old self was crucified.
From the baptism on Christ promises us the victory everytime, the problem is with us, and like He said, when we sin we become servants of sin again. But the saving power of Christ is grace, and where sin abounds grace abounds much more. But because of grace, we should no take it liberty to continue in sin or take it lightly.
The Bible is clear that when God is fully in control of your life, when we are slaves to righteousness, that we CANNOT sin because His seed is in us, and the Spirit is contrary to the flesh that we CANNOT do the things that we would.
But when we sin, WE STEP out of grace and become servants of sin, because the Spirit lusteth against the flesh and vice versa. But the saving power of grace allows us to repent and confess our sins. But the more we sin the more we crucify Christ afresh. And the more the Holy Spirit becomes contrary to us, since sinning is of the flesh.
So it is not me that is saying that if a slave of righteousness sins he has become a servant of righteousness but Christ and His disciples.
“But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.” Ezekiel 18:24
But I am not saying that you will be lost once you sin, I am saying that God expects for us to foraske our sins that “so easily beset us” Hebrews 12:1
Its about Conversion, and the more we strive to be like Christ, the more He will carry us through.
When I called him on a few things in this, he said this:
“Even so faith, if it hath NOT WORKS, IS DEAD, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee MY FAITH BY MY WORKS. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought WITH HIS WORKS, and BY WORKS WAS FAITH made perfect?” James 2:22
“And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, and NOT BY FAITH ONLY. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD ALSO.” James 2:23-26
Like I said before to you, there are two ways to sin, being tempted and choosing to sin. Since we are claiming to be Christians we definitely shouldn’t be choosing to sin, so our sins come from temptations. But if we can overcome sin at the temptation how can we sin?
“There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” 1 Corinthians 10:13
“For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.” Hebrews 2:18
So what is so hard to accept Darrell?
“Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” 2 Timothy 2:19
The Bible absolutely teaches the importance of performing good works and walking in righteousness. What so many people get mixed up on is the distinction between justification and sanctification. Justification is the unilateral action of God whereby He declares believers righteous on account of Jesus’ perfect righteousness. As such, it is entirely appropriate for a Christ-follower to talk about his salvation as a finished thing, because Christ said it was finished when he died on Calvary.
Where I suspect your friend is coming from is a position of “proving” your salvation by performing good works. Such a person does not like to talk about his salvation as having been accomplished (past tense), because his salvation is contingent upon his ability to sustain good works until the day of judgment. Incidentally, the investigative judgement doctrine plays right into this because it is a judgment to find out who is righteous (intrinsic righteousness) rather than to find out whom God has declared righteous (alien righteousness).
God doesn’t leave sinners mired in sin after He justifies them. He changes our thoughts and desires, conforming them day by day and trial by trial into sanctified thoughts and desires. He changes our desire for sin into a desire for righteousness. This happens, not by human power or force of will, but by a supernatural change wrought by the Holy Spirit at the point of our new birth. As a result of being saved by grace, we walk in the works God has prepared beforehand for us to do (Ephesians 2:8-10). If we attempt to walk in these works before our salvation/justification, we’ll be struggling against the ideal of sinless perfection which will crush us and drive us to despair. But now that we have been saved, we can do these works out of gratitude, even though the works will be done imperfectly. Because God is the source of our justification and the impetus for our sanctification, these works begin from the solid foundation of His work rather from the shaky foundation of our own.
Getting back to your friend, there are two places in the Bible I’d ask him to explain. The first is 1 John 2:1. “My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” As a pastor and evangelist, John is concerned with the spiritual maturity of those entrusted in his care. He wants them to stop sinning and to be conformed to the works of God. Yet he couples this exhortation with, “But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” He includes himself in this “we” because he knows he is also a sinner and he wants his hearers to know that when they inevitably stumble in sin, they have not “undone” the good work of God that has already begun in them. If the point of salvation is to leave the justified sinner to himself to live out a life of sinless perfection, John has no business saying what he does in 1 John 2:1.
Next, take a look at the entire chapter of Romans 7. Notice how Paul acknowledges his sin and how he simultaneously can say he serves the law of God with his mind while wrestling with the flesh (Romans 7:21-23). Notice how his next thought is, “Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?” These are not the words of a sinless Christian! If any Christian in the world’s history had the opportunity to reach sinless perfection, it would be Paul—he encountered the risen Jesus and learned the gospel from him directly! But Paul sees his sin magnified by the law and he sees his utter inability to measure up to it, even with his upbringing as a strict Pharisee. In the very next thought, the struggle is settled: “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1-4 ESV)
We must trust that God will do what He says. We must trust that He will send His Spirit to renew us and take away the sins of our flesh, giving us the desire to walk according to His ways. But we must not hold our righteousness up as the standard by which we will be measured “fit for heaven”. To do so would be to displace the sinless life of Christ, his sacrificial death on the cross, and his ongoing mediatorial work on our behalf. Yes, we look forward to the day when we will have no sin, but if we think this will happen with perfection in this life, we need to examine the teachings of the apostles who say otherwise.
Getting into a discussion on Facebook with a gentleman about salvation by works. I pointed out that his views sound alot like Pelagian. I would like to post his quotes and ask you how to explain and answer what he says. His basic premise is that if we are called not to sin and the bible says ‘he that sinneth is of the devil’ and all the other good ones, then we can and should ovecome all sin. I can’t argue with his scriptures and it seems to support sinless perfection (or that is the conclusion one can come to).
What say you all?
Here are his quotes:
“Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.” John 8:33
“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?” Romans 6:16
“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin in the transgression of the law. And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither knoweth Him.” 1 John 3:4-6
“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole WORLD lieth in WICKEDNESS.” 1 John 5:18,19
“For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary one to the other: so that ye CANNOT do the things that you would.” Galatians 5:17
The bible is clear, I am not claiming anything. Sin is sin, we have come to the point where we justify a little sin. But a little sin is still punishable by death. When Christ says we are free from sin, He means it. And when He says that whoever sins is a servant of sin, thats what He means. That is why in the same passage you posted (Romans 6) Paul says our old self was crucified.
From the baptism on Christ promises us the victory everytime, the problem is with us, and like He said, when we sin we become servants of sin again. But the saving power of Christ is grace, and where sin abounds grace abounds much more. But because of grace, we should no take it liberty to continue in sin or take it lightly.
The Bible is clear that when God is fully in control of your life, when we are slaves to righteousness, that we CANNOT sin because His seed is in us, and the Spirit is contrary to the flesh that we CANNOT do the things that we would.
But when we sin, WE STEP out of grace and become servants of sin, because the Spirit lusteth against the flesh and vice versa. But the saving power of grace allows us to repent and confess our sins. But the more we sin the more we crucify Christ afresh. And the more the Holy Spirit becomes contrary to us, since sinning is of the flesh.
So it is not me that is saying that if a slave of righteousness sins he has become a servant of righteousness but Christ and His disciples.
“But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.” Ezekiel 18:24
But I am not saying that you will be lost once you sin, I am saying that God expects for us to foraske our sins that “so easily beset us” Hebrews 12:1
Its about Conversion, and the more we strive to be like Christ, the more He will carry us through.
When I called him on a few things in this, he said this:
“Even so faith, if it hath NOT WORKS, IS DEAD, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee MY FAITH BY MY WORKS. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought WITH HIS WORKS, and BY WORKS WAS FAITH made perfect?” James 2:22
“And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, and NOT BY FAITH ONLY. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD ALSO.” James 2:23-26
Like I said before to you, there are two ways to sin, being tempted and choosing to sin. Since we are claiming to be Christians we definitely shouldn’t be choosing to sin, so our sins come from temptations. But if we can overcome sin at the temptation how can we sin?
“There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” 1 Corinthians 10:13
“For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.” Hebrews 2:18
So what is so hard to accept Darrell?
“Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” 2 Timothy 2:19
Guibox,
I can’t help but be a little perplexed here. In one post you said that formers “aggravate and annoy” you, and then soonafter you start a thread enlisting the help of formers in arguing a theological issue.
I guess my question is what area(s) do you see former Adventists as a viable resource for discerning theological truth—the same formers who have rejected Ellen White as a legitimate prophet, soul sleep (in many cases, at least), dietary laws, and the Sabbath and many of whom have embraced election and sovereign grace seen as repugnant by yourself and other SDA’s?
I can’t help but be a little perplexed here. In one post you said that formers “aggravate and annoy” you, and then soonafter you start a thread enlisting the help of formers in arguing a theological issue.
I guess my question is what area(s) do you see former Adventists as a viable resource for discerning theological truth—the same formers who have rejected Ellen White as a legitimate prophet, soul sleep (in many cases, at least), dietary laws, and the Sabbath and many of whom have embraced election and sovereign grace seen as repugnant by yourself and other SDA’s?
Thanks in advance for your reply.
Aaron
Aaron...Just because formers are pretty much wrong in most of the above biblical doctrines, that doesn’t mean that there isn’t something to glean from them!
Seriously...Though I disagree with election and reformed theology as a whole, I believe that there are aspects of ‘salvation by grace’ and the role and place of works that I need to sort out and get clarification on. I believe that Greg et al. here have made me think in this capacity (though also adding to the confusion!) and more evidence is needed for me to analyze things.
We can all learn something from everyone even if we disagree on other things.
Since the forum has been relatively quiet of late, I was reviewing recent threads and re-discovered this chain and remembered an item I wanted to share.
Greg - 25 February 2008 11:01 PM
Greg writes:
“Where I suspect your friend is coming from is a position of “proving” your salvation by performing good works. Such a person does not like to talk about his salvation as having been accomplished (past tense), because his salvation is contingent upon his ability to sustain good works until the day of judgment. ...”
You’re right Greg! Fundamentally, the entire un-scriptural concept of attaining salvation by performing good works begs the question for which no one has a good answer!
“How good is good enough?”
There is a great little book that uses this phrase for its title, that explores this concept extensively and completely exposes the myth of performance based salvation. This book is a staple at our church and has been a topic of conversation for a couple of years now. Take a look at the authors website: http://www.howgoodisgoodenough.com/
This is a $10 paperback that is a great read and puts the fallacy of “works” to gain salvation to bed in a respectful and clear way! I suggest it highly!
Dan, thanks for sharing that book recommendation. The title really grabs your attention doesn’t it? In Jesus’ time, the way he brought his listeners to this question was in his sermon on the mount, saying, “...unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:20) and “be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matthew 5:48). Put yourself in the shoes of a Sabbath-keeping, sacrifice-offering, unclean meat-avoiding professional practitioner of religion (e.g a Pharisee) and imagine the impact of Jesus’ words! There is no person alive today who has succeeded in outdoing the Pharisees of Jesus’ day when it comes to strict religious observance, yet the pharisaical belief that human effort can measure up to God’s standard is alive and well.
This becomes particularly apparent when a group of Christians pride themselves on keeping God’s law better than the rest, as if that one act of religious observance puts them on the “fast track” into heaven. This takes various forms within Adventism and usually revolves around Sabbath-keeping, but there are other points of distinction like dietary and dress practices that also set people up for pharisaical self-righteousness.
The point of this is not to say that obedience to God is somehow bad...quite the opposite. Obedience to God motivated by gratitude for what he has done for us in Christ is the key, not out of any attempt to measure up to his high standards. There is only one Person in earth’s history who measured up—Jesus Christ—and our only hope of passing the high standards of Matthew 5:20-48 is by being clothed in his righteousness. The apostle Paul put it this way: “For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).
And along these lines, apparently the Catholic church has added to the list of ”mortal sins” the following: carrying out experiments on humans, polluting the environment, causing social injustice, causing poverty, becoming obscenely wealthy and taking drugs. See this news story.
Better think twice before tossing that plastic bottle in the trash, because by polluting the environment, your soul may be going into perdition!
And along these lines, apparently the Catholic church has added to the list of ”mortal sins” the following: carrying out experiments on humans, polluting the environment, causing social injustice, causing poverty, becoming obscenely wealthy and taking drugs. See this news story.
Better think twice before tossing that plastic bottle in the trash, because by polluting the environment, your soul may be going into perdition!
Greg
O.K. Just in case we didn’t know what we shouldn’t do we now have a list! (or should I say an addendum to the official list?)
#1. carrying out experiments on humans (Gee, I’m glad they told me… But perhaps with the possibility of the cloning of humans we needed to be reminded!)
#2. polluting the environment (Using today’s standards I think the enviro extremists would have John the Baptist fined for encouraging all those dirty people to immerse themselves and thereby harming the Jordon River’s biota!)
#3. causing social injustice (Isn’t this covered by “love thy neighbor as thyself”?)
#4. causing poverty (How does one cause poverty other than stealing? See Commandment #7)
#5. becoming obscenely wealthy (And who defines what “obscenely wealthy” is? Many would consider my employer to be obscenely wealthy! Where would I be without him???)
#6. taking drugs. (Again, I’m glad they told us...! I’m sure the fact that this is now a “mortal sin” will cause many drug users to have second thoughts don’t you?)
Greg, This smacks of humanistic political correctness! Especially numbers 2, 3, 4, and 5! To extend on our earlier posts, I guess we should thank the Catholic church for letting us know “how bad is bad enough” !
Thanks for bringing the book cited above to our attention.
It is the basic condition of sinful man, and manifested also among those who are truly born again, this underlying desire to somehow wanting to add to what God has already done. RCC has done it again.
In fairness to Adventism, it seems that at least in SoCal, the strict standards taught by Ellen White are progressively going by the board. For example many SDA academies and colleges are allowing jazz music to be performed, whereas, this would have been considered anathema when I was growing up. Many SoCal SDAs do not follow the dietary laws, and they think nothing of having a glass of wine or wearing jewelry. I am sure there are many legalistic locales where traditional SDA is still being taught.
However, in the case of RCC, they are now starting to add the social and politically correct gospel to their list of sins. As john MacArthur says, the RCC always morphs to whatever culture they are in.
When the Father sees His gospel believer through the lens of His Son, He sees us as perfect. What more do you care about? Are not His eyes the only ones that count anyway?
I had a bible study not too long ago with someone who was either a pelagian or semi pelagian, he was arguing for the ability to reach complete sinless perfection on this side of heaven. He was also taught about the bible by someone who’s expressed position is that we are saved by Jesus then the rest is up to us, which at its heart I believe is pelagianism. Regretably their are still people on the fringes of Adventism and im assuming probably on the fringes of other Christian denominations who hold to this view. I prepared a sermon shortly after that from 1st John attempting to bring out the balanced view that yes the bible does say we do not keep on sinning, but it also says that if we say we have no sin we are a liar. Simply put I believe that what it is at the heart of this is after recieving the imputed righteousness of Christ the imparted rigtheousness is an ongoing process, and instead of persisting in the way of sin we are by the grace of God and because of the strength of God persisting in the way of righteousness, that however does not mean we are completely sinless but it means that as we become aware of sin Christ gives us the ability to put it behind us. I would use this illustration from my own life. I was once taking a road trip to massachusets, and when I got off for gas in ohio I wasnt paying attention and accidentally got back on the highway going west instead of east, and, due to the fact that I had several hundred miles to go on I70 I wasnt paying attention to street signs until I caught sight of a sign for lancaster which I knew was west and in the opposite direction of my destination. I immediatly turned around (you could say repented) and went back the direction I should have been going. but I still had several miles to go before I was back where I started. This is true also in our Christian walk; we repent (turn around) but we are not immediatly back where we started, but through the grace and strength of God and the imputed righteousnes we are counted as being there then given the strength from Christ to stay on the road to get there. I do not know it that makes sense, feel free to add your criticisms, insults, and diatribes...J/K
P.S I have also been doing some thinking lately and I think where these concepts about imputed and imparted righteousness, assurance of salvation, and other related beliefs intersect with certain SDA beliefs and could, if one is not careful lead into legalistic pitfalls, is when too much focus is put for instance on sabbatarianism or the investigative judgment, this could lead one to substitute Imparted for Imputed righteousness. Let me explain. The idea of a judgment itself is not bad. Where the danger falls is if we put so much focus on the judgment and insuring that we have everything in order (something that as humans we cant do anyways) that we begin to worry more about our imparted rightouesness or sanctification then we do about our imputed rigteousness which, in reality, is our only hope of salvation. Simply put, we should never think that the imputed righteousness of Christ continuing to be applied to us is contingent on our continuing in the imparted righteousness of Christ, or stated another way, that in order for us to continue to recieve imputed rightouesness we have to continue in sanctification. That is simply a veiled form of salvation by works, and one that someone who holds to the investigative judgment doctrine, could, if they are not careful, believe without realizing it. In reality Imparted rightouesness flows from Imputed rightouesness and is no way a requirment for imputed rightouesness, that is a fact that needs to be kept straight and in order, another hill that we need to die on as Christians. From there I think the Calvinists and Arminians could probably agree to disagree…
Oh for an adventist church willing to discuss Issues like this out in the open and work them out instead of falling into the trap of claiming that everyone is just trying to “tear down the pillars.” I think we have been way to afraid to discuss the need to clarify certain legalistic tendencies that can easily flow from the investigative judgment ever since Desmond Ford in the 80’s.
The Bible absolutely teaches the importance of performing good works and walking in righteousness. What so many people get mixed up on is the distinction between justification and sanctification. Justification is the unilateral action of God whereby He declares believers righteous on account of Jesus’ perfect righteousness. As such, it is entirely appropriate for a Christ-follower to talk about his salvation as a finished thing, because Christ said it was finished when he died on Calvary.
Where I suspect your friend is coming from is a position of “proving” your salvation by performing good works. Such a person does not like to talk about his salvation as having been accomplished (past tense), because his salvation is contingent upon his ability to sustain good works until the day of judgment. Incidentally, the investigative judgement doctrine plays right into this because it is a judgment to find out who is righteous (intrinsic righteousness) rather than to find out whom God has declared righteous (alien righteousness).
God doesn’t leave sinners mired in sin after He justifies them. He changes our thoughts and desires, conforming them day by day and trial by trial into sanctified thoughts and desires. He changes our desire for sin into a desire for righteousness. This happens, not by human power or force of will, but by a supernatural change wrought by the Holy Spirit at the point of our new birth. As a result of being saved by grace, we walk in the works God has prepared beforehand for us to do (Ephesians 2:8-10). If we attempt to walk in these works before our salvation/justification, we’ll be struggling against the ideal of sinless perfection which will crush us and drive us to despair. But now that we have been saved, we can do these works out of gratitude, even though the works will be done imperfectly. Because God is the source of our justification and the impetus for our sanctification, these works begin from the solid foundation of His work rather from the shaky foundation of our own.
I’m glad you mentioned Ephesians 2. I think these verses sum it up pretty well:
EPH 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
We have been saved by grace. We are God’s workmanship. He has ordained us in Christ to do good works, but we don’t save ourselves by doing them, and we don’t keep ourselves saved by doing them.
Sophia7, welcome to 4TG! I am glad you found us and I strongly agree with everything you said. We are indeed God’s workmanship to walk in the works He’s prepared for us to do. Thanks be to God that He is the Author and Finisher of our faith and that He is strong enough to save us and keep us saved.
Wow, it is great to find another Christian who believes this! Thank you!
Thanks. I’m a former Adventist. My husband used to be a pastor, but we left the ministry several months ago, mainly because of issues with the sanctuary doctrine. As we continued to study, we found ourselves disagreeing with too many things to call ourselves Adventists anymore.
I’d also like to extend a welcome to you to the 4TG forum. I enjoy your posts on CARM as well as your husband’s, and admire you both for having the integrity to follow your convictions for the cause of Christ even if that meant leaving your comfort zone.
