What makes you think that the man-made international date line, with its many jagged curves, corresponds to the biblical Sabbath the Jews observed in Moses’ day? Ellen White said that the angels keep the Sabbath with human beings as well. Therefore, I am wondering what day the angels keep--being they have a choice of days. The fact that Sunday is based on the international date line as well is not a big deal because Sunday is not a holy day anyway. There are no holy days in the Christian calendar.
However, if one truly seeks authentic, official “holy” time, it better be a very precise time corresponding to that of ancient Israel. Of course, such exactness is not possible to ascertain today. The Jews only kept one weekly Sabbath. The Jewish holy time could not be just any day. Global time zones are all man-made. On the other hand, Pentecost Sunday is the birthday of Christianity--a very special day (a weekly Easter). Indeed, Jesus is the true Sabbath Rest--the reality of the shadow (Matt. 11:28-30, Heb. 4:9,10, Col. 2:16,17). Not surprisingly, Seventh-day Adventists aren’t even observing a shadow. They’re honoring a literal day, not a shadow but as the reality itself. They have made a creation into a holy icon.
I guess this is a little late from the dates I see on this discussion but would like to put my two cents if no one minds. I don’t know exactly how to say this but say I go to church on Sunday and I read in the Bible about the Sabbath being the 7th day. What can it hurt to do what the Bible says?
Carol, welcome to the discussion. Even though I know we disagree on this, I think we can dialogue in a respectful way. I am glad you are asking these questions.
You ask, “What can it hurt to do what the Bible says?” I understand your question and I agree with the spirit of the question, but I think it is an oversimplification. Someone could easily approach you and say, “The Bible says we should observe Passover. What can it hurt to do what the Bible says?” With your approach, you’re left with no good answer.
If you look around on this site, you’ll find other articles that deal with Sabbath observance (see this link, for example). We don’t judge people here for observing Sabbath, according to the biblical command (Romans 14:5-6, Colossians 2:16-17), and we’d ask our Adventist friends to do the same. Unfortunately as you probably know, Adventists have claimed that the observance of a holy day is what separates true and false Christians, and will be the final test God uses to determine who is fit for salvation or who is not. This use of Sabbath is completely unbiblical and frankly dangerous, because it distills the entire Bible down to one command that either qualifies or disqualifies you from the kingdom, ignoring the gospel in the process. None of us will be saved because of our observance of the law, because before the law, we are all guilty and in need of God’s grace (Romans 3:9-11). This does not mean that observing the law is bad, but it does mean that using the law as a test of salvation is bad, because the only test of salvation is whether one believes in Jesus Christ (John 5:24, John 14:6, Acts 2:21, Romans 10:11).
cjohns50 - 22 April 2009 10:16 AM
If when I am judged and come to find out it was an important part of being saved, I’m good . If it ends up not mattering what day you keep I’m still good. Win, win situation.
But by this logic, you should observe all of the other commandments like the Passover, feasts, high Sabbaths, jubilee years, etc. You don’t want to leave it to chance that God will disqualify from heaven those who don’t observe all his commandments, do you?
cjohns50 - 22 April 2009 10:16 AM
Also a misquote I noticed in the article was Colossian 2: 16 The article said sabbath but the Bible says sabbaths. From what I have studied sabbaths were annual celebration’s or feast days during the year not the weekly Sabbath. One word or letter can make a lot of difference.
I believe you are reading something into the text that isn’t there. Sabbaths can refer to any collection of Sabbaths, whether it be weekly, monthly, yearly, etc. There is absolutely no reason to believe that a plural “Sabbath” means anything other than all the Sabbaths, of which the weekly Sabbath is a part. This text says that all the Sabbath feasts that were types (shadows) of Christ are not to be used to judge Christians, because they have met their fulfillment in the substance (Jesus). If you don’t think the weekly Sabbath is ceremonial along with the other Sabbaths, you should read Leviticus 23:1-3:
The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, These are the appointed feasts of the Lord that you shall proclaim as holy convocations; they are my appointed feasts.
“Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work. It is a Sabbath to the Lord in all your dwelling places.
The very next verses describe how the Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread should also be observed (Leviticus 23:4-6). Do you observe these as you do the weekly Sabbath? Your Bible says you should, so you do it, right?
cjohns50 - 22 April 2009 10:16 AM
Another thing that was disturbing was saying Adventist worship the day not God. I find that hard to believe and I don’t think that is a very Christ like thing to say. We should have respect for all our brothers and sisters no matter their religious beliefs. God loves us all and he says He has sheep in other folds. Which I assume He means other religions.
Someday you should read Ellen White’s account of how the name “Seventh-day Adventist” was chosen. I think you will find it eye opening. As you read, ask yourself if the individuals involved were behaving in a Christ-like way, respecting Christians who were not worshiping on Saturday. To answer the second part of your question, you need to read John 14:6 again. There is only one way to the Father, and it is not found anywhere else but in Christ. That is not to say that Jesus can’t save people out of non-Christian faiths, but he certainly does not call them to stay within those faiths when they explicitly deny his deity and work.
It seems to me that people want to make this thing complicated. I like to keep things simple and easy. I can only go by the calender.It has not been changed, there were days added at one time but the weekly cycle was not changed so I see the week starting with Sunday through Saturday, but even if it had been, all we can do is go by what we have. All I know is pray and the Lord will direct which way to go and that is what I try to do.
The reason Christians do not honor any day as being “holy” is because there are no holy days in the Christian calendar. Nowhere in the New Testament can we find a command to observe a day as being holy. What day are you certain, beyond any doubt, that corresponds precisely with the weekly Sabbath in Moses’ day? Importantly, if you are observing the festal Sabbath according to Pope Gregory’s calendar, then you are not keeping the Bible Sabbath. Also, how can people in northern Alaska and northern Norway observe the Sabbath from “sunset to sunset” as you indicated? The fact that the Sabbath cannot be kept from “sunset to sunset” throughout the world reveals that it was never intended for areas outside of Palestine.
I attend on both days too. No big deal. I’m a loving, but former, Adventist. A bit like Paul, perhaps, OK to keep the law if he wants, though, like him. I’m not under the law. I’ve wrestled with this a lot, because it was such an issue in Adventism, and because I so deeply believed in Adventist teachings for most of my life.
This is a little choppy, since I’m doing a cut and paste from a document I wrote years ago . .
The question remains, and since Paul says not to let anyone criticize you about this matter (see Col 2:16) go ahead and answer for yourself: What does the day you choose to worship symbolize to you? What does Saturday symbolize to you? Sunday? Monday? How about Friday? What meaning does the day on which we worship convey to others, especially unbelievers? For many who have been in the church for a long time, emphasis on keeping a certain day (either Saturday or Sunday) reminds them of the impossibility of keeping the old covenant—impossible—and the day soon becomes laden with memories of guilt. For those, keeping a day is not a sign not of sanctification but of having fallen away from grace (Galatians 5). Paul called the law unbearable in Acts 15. That is why the Law of Moses was so clearly and with such authority replaced by the covenant of Noah, and why the new Christians rejoiced—it was an impossible burden to keep Saturday “holy” according to old covenant law! Regardless of how you answer this question, it is imperative that each of us enters into God’s rest—everyday!!
The day on which we worship does not matter! What does matter and what mattered to the early Christians, is this: What does the day on which you worship say to on-lookers? For some, the answer will be to worship on Saturday. For others the answer will be to worship on Sunday. Will Sunday finally become tainted by legalism and works/based religion, (as Saturday did under Judaism) and no longer be favored by Christians? In this world of sin, it’s entirely possible. I don’t blame the early Christians for choosing a “clean” symbol. Bacciocchi and others have pointed out the apparent desire for Christians to distance themselves from Judiasm.
As a reminder, you will recall that in Acts 15 circumcision was not the real issue, but was only the entrance ceremony into the old covenant. Sabbath keeping was the repeatable sign of the old covenant. In contrast, the entrance ceremony into the new covenant is baptism, and the repeatable sign is the Lord’s Supper.
The New Testament affirms all the commandments except Sabbath keeping—the sign of the old covenant. But the authority of God and the Holy Spirit and the apostles is called in (what more could we ask!) in Acts 15 to clearly shift from Moses’ covenant to Noah’s covenant (no sexual immorality, blood, strangled food, food offered to idols=the occult, see Acts 15:20). This is similar to what attorneys do when they amend a contract in its entirety, and then reinstate only those items that apply in the future. Nine of the commandments are affirmed in the New Testament, some more than once. It’s not a mistake that the sign of the old covenant (the Sabbath) is barely mentioned in the New Testament. The covenant it represented is obsolete.
When we want to disinherit a child in a will we first mention the name of the child (so no one can say we forgot him) then we acknowledge the child with a gift of $1.00. The real inheritance goes to the child we love. It’s the same in Acts 15. The Law of Moses is mentioned, it is acknowledged that it has been preached for centuries (that’s the $1.00), then it’s disinherited, and Noah’s covenant is given under authority from the Holy Spirit and the apostles. This was not a slip of the pen—it is clear and deliberate. It means that if we really want to be scriptural, accurate and legalistic based on the decision at the Jerusalem Council, we should focus our evangelism on avoiding strangled food, blood, immorality, and the occult—not on Sabbath keeping!
These were among the seven laws of Noah as taught in the Torah. I’m no scholar, but the ancient Jewish scholars apparently were well acquainted with the laws of Moses and of Noah. The laws of Noah were for all mankind, and when the Law of Moses was ended, the Jerusalem Council voted to have Gentiles go with the simpler laws. They could adopt the Jewish laws of Moses if they wanted, but they had to keep them perfectly, apparently, a bit risky since apparently no sacrifice remained for the old covenant laws. Not sure how this played out, though.
When I worship on Saturday, it’s a particular risk because I don’t want to seem to be hedging my bets--thus violating the last verse of Romans 14. Whatever isn’t of faith is sin. There’s other significant problems, too, I think.
Bob
A hearty welcome to our discussion forum. Different cultures have maintained different weekly cycles (e.g., the Babylonians had an 11-day week and others a 13-day week). This made it very difficult for the Hebrew captives to observe the Jewish Sabbath. There were also other cultures that had weekly cycles of more than seven days as well. It is a myth that the weekly cycle has always consisted of seven days in every culture. The Egyptians may not have had a seven-day weekly cycle either. I have forgotten the names of some other cultures that maintained various weekly cycles. You can research it further by logging unto the website linked at the end of this post.
Obviously, the festal Sabbath was unknown before Sinai, Nehemiah 9:12 tells us, “So, you made known to them your holy Sabbath” indicating that the Hebrew people were unfamiliar with the seventh day being special and holy. For interesting and factual information about the history of time, simply log unto: http://www.time.gov . This is an excellent way to keep your time official as well. I use this website when daylight savings time changes to adjust all the clocks in my house.
A little more about the early Christians might help here.
SDAs also try to distinguish between the Sinai covenant and the law to say that the old covenant was not the same as the 10 commandments (and that it was therefore only the old covenant, not the law itself, that was abolished) but if you read Deut. 5:2-22, Romans 5:13,14, Galatians 3:17-19,Jeremiah 31;31-34, Heb 8:6-13, Deut 9:9, 2 Chron 5:10, 1Kings 8:9, 21 this question vanishes. All the words which the Lord spoke included the 10 commandments along with civil and ceremonial laws, and these were written in a book and sealed and ratified with blood. (Ex. 24:1-8) All were part of the old covenant, and with its abrogation, they came to an end. Paul says the whole thing was nailed to the cross—sabbath and all. Col 2:14-17. Just to make sure, Heb 9:1-10 tells us that the whole thing, including the sanctuary, the ark with the tables of stone, and more, all applied only until the time of the new order, and that the new covenant “not in tables of stone” has taken its place. 2 Cor 3:3, 7-13. Compare this to Ex:34:29-34 for absolute proof that it was the 10 commandment law written on the tables of stone that was done away. There’s more to this than meets the eye, because Jesus Himself is the New Covenant—more on this later. These scriptures are clear. The old covenant “gendereth to bondage” (Gal 4:21-30). We are plainly told to “cast it out.” When I realized that what I had been told about the law simply wasn’t true, it made me question a lot of other things I’d learned.
Not later than A.D. 120, Paul’s teaching buddy, Barnabas, said that Christians observed the first day of the week “the day on which Jesus rose from the dead.” Aside from the scriptural evidence of Sunday meetings, this is early anecdotal evidence from Paul’s trusted friend. Justin Martyr, writing about A.D. 140 affirmed the same, that “On the day called Sunday, all (Christians) who live in the cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read . . . Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly.” Eusebius also give similar proof. Some scholars say the Didache, which is like a baptismal class document, written by apostles who, by definition, had personally seen the Lord, is thought to date as far back as ad 70, (or ad 90 who knows?), but it teaches the “Lord’s Day.” Some think this document may be implied in Acts 15:28. Is it really important?
Many new commands are given in the New Covenant (New Testament). The command to “remember me” refers to the Lord’s Supper. There is a command to not forsake the assembling of yourselves together, to stand fast in the freedom which you now have, etc. Paul tells us clearly in 2 Cor 3 that all commands (both moral and ceremonial) given in the Old Covenant ceased to apply under the new covenant.
However, with a change in covenant came change in law (Hebrews 7:12)—one far superior to the old, which encompasses the eternal moral principles of God, which the Holy Spirit writes on our hearts. This eternal law is also known as the law of Christ (Gal 6:2) the law of the Spirit (Romans 8:2) the law of liberty (James 1:25) the law of grace and faith (John 1:17) not for Israel only (Deut 4:6-8, 5:3) but for all men (Luke 22:20, Mark 14:24. Indeed, nine of the originals, plus many new commands, apply to Christians. For obvious reasons, the seventh-day Sabbath, as sign of the obsolete covenant, was never given to Christians, nor was it given to the millions of gentile believers who have come into the church since Pentecost. The seventh-day Sabbath was a shadow, fulfilled in Christ (Col 2:16,17). Christians now rest in Him and His completed work on their behalf— not just one day a week—see Hebrews 3:13 and chapter 4:8,9, which clearly uncouples the true Sabbath rest of God from the day of the week and instead fixes the day as “Today” as in v.7. Christians are invited to rest as God did when the Creation was finished—24/7 beginning now, today, and continuing every day throughout eternity, not just once a week as was commanded at Sinai.
Sorry if this seems disjointed. I’m doing it in a hurry. Never a good idea.
Bob
Greg,
I am not arguing the Adventist position I feel like the Bible is the standard we should be going by. I don’t want to go by other books and articles etc. I don’t believe I am reading more into it then is there on sabbaths. It is clear to me annual sabbaths were passover and the such but I can’t figure out why you would call them commandments. I only count 10 commandments that were written by the finger of God., they were appointed feasts as you said not commandments and I agree they were fulfilled with Jesus. but the 10 commandments were never done away with and the whole world agrees with 9 of them , there has to be some rule for judgment I’m betting on the 10 commandments because without the law there is no sin. I may be wrong but I have to go with what I understand right now. From what I have read of the posts there will be a time where it will become clear and if I need to change my ways at that time I am willing but for now I can only go by the light I have. As far as Ellen White I was not singleing out any certain person, just saying I felt everyone should be tolerant of other people, a general statement ,didn’t mean to go back in history and see who acted Christ like at any certain time, besides I try not to judge others (not my job you understand.) I don’t want to come across harsh so hope no one takes it that way, sometimes it is hard to put your thoughts down in this kind of forum and make it sound like it would if you were talking to someone.
Bob,
Thanks for the references I will look them up. I do see the laws as 2 different sets of laws. One written on scrolls by Moses and one on stone by the finger of God and I do not believe the ones on stone were done away with. The way I read it the laws of Moses were fulfilled by Jesus, but I just can’t let go of the others ..Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those that do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
Carol
Hi Carol
I’m no Greek scholar, but I have an interlinear. Here is the literal English interpretation of Revelation 22:14. I write this as a friend. This is not a challenge nor a debate. Thes things are too important for that. So I write this as your on-line friend. Please accept it in the kindness with which I write.
I’ll write the words in the order as they appear:
Revelation 22:14
“Blessed are the ones washing the robes of them over the tree of life and by the gates they may enter into the city.”
The King James often mistranslates the word for “teachings” (entole) as “law” (nomos), but neither word is in this verse! It led to a lot of confusion, and as an adventist I’d just quote verses like “if you love me keep my commandments” without realizing the mistranslation--and totally dirrerent meaning. The 10 commandments are nowhere in sight!
I was kind of stunned when I learned this! I am sort of legalistic--it’s my default setting--so this mattered, until I realized the mistake.
I’m not anxious to get into this, but Jesus didn’t say that he didn’t come to change the law--he said that he didn’t come to destroy, but to fulfill. The law was changed as Hebrews 7 says.
I thought I’d never get rest over this issue!
Bob
They may rest on ‘a’ seventh day ... but not ‘the’ seventh day.
They rest on Lord’s Day.
What day would that be?
Sunday, I already mentioned this when I spoke about them as Sunday sabbatarians. Its an undeniable historical truth that this expression, found only once in the NT in Revelation is used with reference to Sunday that even today Saturday sabbatarians don’t refer to their sabbath as the Lord’s Day, but as Sabbath.
Thanks for your patience while I mention one more thing. The seven laws of Noah as explained by the Torah scholars included a prohibition against eating a limb that is torn off a living animal. These same scholars say that this is the only difference between the six laws given in the Garden of Eden and the seven given to Noah, since the first diet was basically vegan.
In neither cse is the Sabbath mentioned--for Adam or for Noah. This really suprised me because I thought for sure that if anyone had a vested interest in saying that the seventh-day sabbath still applied, as a creation ordinance, it would be these Jesiwh scholars!
