I have been condemned by forum members here for claiming God’s promise in Phil 4:13, in relation to obeying His Word.  The reactions here to this text have, quite frankly, puzzled me - yet I see an opportunity for in depth study, and better understanding. Therefore, I would like to try this topic out here as well to see how it goes, and what can be learned. I intend to pray and think for a few days on this topic, and how to present it, but I wanted to get it started to give anyone interested a chance to do the same.  Of course, any comments are welcome before I get back here to post. 

You sound like a martyr when you say you have been “condemned”. Nobody has condemned you for the way you use Phil 4:13, we have simply disagreed with you. There is a BIG difference.

Greg - 29 July 2009 12:25 PM

You sound like a martyr when you say you have been “condemned”. Nobody has condemned you for the way you use Phil 4:13, we have simply disagreed with you. There is a BIG difference.

“The way I use Phil 4:13?”

How is that? You have not been very specific except to say that you had a big problem with me because I used this text in connection with obedience, and wanting to obey God.

In many Bible texts, especially with God’s promises, there is immediate context, and the wider, present day context to which the original context can be applied.  Phil 4:13 would be no exception. When the apostle wrote this text; he was referring to a specific trial he was going through; yet, this does not preclude the Christian today from saying: “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.” As Christians, we have to be able to do all things (not for) but through Christ.

You might want to also check out Phil 2:13 which clearly is in collaboration with the principle of Phil 4:13.  God works in us BOTH to will and to do of His good pleasure - and so I CAN do all things through Christ.

Protestant 101 - 30 July 2009 06:28 PM

“The way I use Phil 4:13?”

How is that? You have not been very specific except to say that you had a big problem with me because I used this text in connection with obedience, and wanting to obey God.

This debate originated with my criticism of the way Adventists use Phil 4:13 to support Sabbath observance. You endorse this use of the text and I do not. The Sabbath was nowhere in view in the fourth chapter of Phillipians, but Paul’s present struggles in prison were.

Protestant 101 - 30 July 2009 06:28 PM

In many Bible texts, especially with God’s promises, there is immediate context, and the wider, present day context to which the original context can be applied.  Phil 4:13 would be no exception. When the apostle wrote this text; he was referring to a specific trial he was going through; yet, this does not preclude the Christian today from saying: “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.” As Christians, we have to be able to do all things (not for) but through Christ.

Here is the rub, you take a text with a clear immediate context and stretch it to a “wider, present day context” of your own definition. In this case you want to use it to endorse Sabbath-keeping, but there is really no limit as to where you can go with this. For example, what’s preventing you from using this text to say that you can live without sin? Jesus commanded a righteousness higher than the scribes and Pharisees did he not? He told the woman caught in adultery to “Go and sin no more”, correct? Well let’s pair these up with “I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.” Are you willing to endorse this use of Phil 4:13 and if so, can you say that you are now living without sin? If not, by your own reasoning you are in violation of the “wider, present day context” of Phil 4:13.

Greg

Yes Greg, calling it a “rub” is perhaps a good choice of terminology. LOL, it rubs you one way and me the other. I really don’t see a problem here yet, with the way I, (along with many Christians) use Phil 4:13.

I would be quite interested to explore more your “hermeneutic” for the reading and understanding of the Bible, particularly as it relates to God’s promises.

Lets pick any one of the ten commandments.  it doesn’t have to be the fourth commandment; although I am happy to also include that if you express interest.  But whichever commandment we pick, would you, as a Christian, want to obey it?

I guess you didn’t like my question, because you didn’t see fit to answer it. And so it goes....

Greg - 31 July 2009 03:37 PM

I guess you didn’t like my question, because you didn’t see fit to answer it. And so it goes....

Jesus answered many questions, with another question - are you saying it is wrong for me to follow His example here? I actually like your question and am looking forward to exploring it more with you and anyone else who is interested. I would like to find out more where you are coming from on this question, and to me, my last question was just a way I thought would accomplish that.

So now Jesus gets the credit for your non-answer? I guess you think Phil 4:13 also extends to evading a straightforward question.

Greg

Greg - 31 July 2009 03:37 PM

I guess you didn’t like my question, because you didn’t see fit to answer it. And so it goes....

To most Christians, it is a very simple matter.  If one of the disciples claims a promise, such as Phil 4:13, then there must also be something in that promise for believers of our present day and age.  It is by His promises that we are “partakers of the divine nature,” ( 2 Pet 1:4) ), and so it is not a “stretch” to say today, whatever the promise says. Phil 4:10-20 is all about God’s provision to His people. Can you show from the Bible why this would not apply to the Christian who wants to obey one of God’s commandments?

I have tried to find out just why you keep saying, without proving, that a Christian today cannot say: “I can do all things through Christ...” Phil 2:13 tells us that God works in us BOTH to will and to do of His good pleasure - and when we look at such verses; it then becomes a very real possiblitlity to say we can do all things through Christ, and that includes obeying Him. The context of Phil 4:13 is very clear, and is not limited to when we are going through the exact same trials that the Apostle was, at that time. Jesus said: “without me, ye can do NOTHING.” (John 15:5) Therefore, why can’t we say “I can do all things through Christ?

The only real thing you are proving here is that you have a big problem with God’s commandments, in particular, the fourth commandment. But you might as well stop trying to stretch Phil 4:13 to something it’s not, just to “prove” your point.

I have given you some Bible verses, to try and show why I make the connection to Phil 4:13 that I do.  Can you give me any verses that would say I am wrong? What I am saying re Phil 4:13 is not just an “Adventist” invention as you accuse us of.

From Albert Barne’s Notes On The Bible:

Phi 4:13 -
I can do all things - From the experience which Paul had in these various circumstances of life, he comes here to the general conclusion that he could “do all things.” He could bear any trial, perform any duty, subdue any evil propensity of his nature, and meet all the temptations incident to any condition of prosperity or adversity. His own experience in the various changes of life had warranted him in arriving at this conclusion; and he now expresses the firm confidence that nothing would be required of him which he would not be able to perform. In Paul, this declaration was not a vain self-reliance, nor was it the mere result of his former experience. He knew well where the strength was to be obtained by which to do all things, and on that arm that was able to uphold him he confidently relied.

My question remains: Why can’t Christians today say: “I can do all things through Christ,” just because they are refering to some point of obedience, such as one of God’s commandments?

Protestant 101 - 01 August 2009 11:18 PM

To most Christians, it is a very simple matter.  If one of the disciples claims a promise, such as Phil 4:13, then there must also be something in that promise for believers of our present day and age.

I did not deny there was a present application, I objected to the way you paired Phil 4:13 with the 10 commandments while ignoring other laws (feast/festivals, etc.) and commands ("Be perfect...”, “Go and sin no more..."), while neglecting the immediate context of Phil 4.

Protestant 101 - 01 August 2009 11:18 PM

It is by His promises that we are “partakers of the divine nature,” ( 2 Pet 1:4) ), and so it is not a “stretch” to say today, whatever the promise says. Phil 4:10-20 is all about God’s provision to His people. Can you show from the Bible why this would not apply to the Christian who wants to obey one of God’s commandments?

I don’t disagree that Phil 4:10-20 is about God’s provision for his people. But you create a very narrow constraint on what that provision is, narrowing down to a single commandment as if this is the culmination of God’s provision while ignoring that Paul wrote these words in response to a trial he was facing, not a commandment he was attempting to keep.

Protestant 101 - 01 August 2009 11:18 PM

I have tried to find out just why you keep saying, without proving, that a Christian today cannot say: “I can do all things through Christ...”

I never said this, you are putting words in my mouth.

Protestant 101 - 01 August 2009 11:18 PM

Phil 2:13 tells us that God works in us BOTH to will and to do of His good pleasure - and when we look at such verses; it then becomes a very real possiblitlity to say we can do all things through Christ, and that includes obeying Him.

So will you answer my questions now? Can you say that you are perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect? Can you say that you have stopped sinning? You can do all things through Christ who strengthens you, right? Please answer the questions.

Protestant 101 - 01 August 2009 11:18 PM

The context of Phil 4:13 is very clear, and is not limited to when we are going through the exact same trials that the Apostle was, at that time. Jesus said: “without me, ye can do NOTHING.” (John 15:5) Therefore, why can’t we say “I can do all things through Christ?

I never said the text was limited to “the exact same trials” of the Apostle. You are putting words in my mouth, but it is certainly easier to argue against a straw man.

Protestant 101 - 01 August 2009 11:18 PM

The only real thing you are proving here is that you have a big problem with God’s commandments, in particular, the fourth commandment. But you might as well stop trying to stretch Phil 4:13 to something it’s not, just to “prove” your point.

I thought I was guilty of not stretching the text to a present-day application but now I am guilty of stretching it? You contradict yourself.

Protestant 101 - 01 August 2009 11:18 PM

I have given you some Bible verses, to try and show why I make the connection to Phil 4:13 that I do.  Can you give me any verses that would say I am wrong? What I am saying re Phil 4:13 is not just an “Adventist” invention as you accuse us of.

You had no answer when I asked you on the other thread if I could use your reasoning to endorse feast/festival observance, among other God-commanded laws. Your inability to answer proves that you do have an Adventist invention extending only as far as the fourth commandment, but no further.

Protestant 101 - 01 August 2009 11:18 PM

My question remains: Why can’t Christians today say: “I can do all things through Christ,” just because they are refering to some point of obedience, such as one of God’s commandments?

Christians can say this, but if used in the context of law-keeping, they will necessarily be bound to extend the application to the other commands of Scripture. I asked you to do this in my previous questions, but you still haven’t answered. Can you say that you are perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect? Can you say that you have stopped sinning? If you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you, the answer to both questions should be “Yes”. So what are your answers?

Greg

I don’t have any “inability to answer” as you would so love to convince your audience of.  Why you keep insisting on such personal reflections is way beyond the scope of this study; I am very limited in my time online, and I actually pick and choose carefully what I reply to.  My priorities are not likely to be the same as your’s so why make a mountain out of a molehill here on such a trivial point? I am doing my best to reply with scriptural answers, but that doesn’t seem to be good enough here. Your scriptures are always “better” than mine.

Scripture has a lot more depth and meaning than what you are allowing here on this point re Phil. 4:13 I have submitted a non-Adventist quote, as well as scriptures in my last post; and you dismiss it away with the excuse that I someohow “did not answer.” Are you able to show why or how those references would not apply to “law-keeping?” Can you show from the Bible why a Christian would not want to obey God; particularly in regards to the ten commandments?  Can you show from the Bible why such obedience “must” be extended to ALL of God’s commandments? (meaning things other than the ten commandments). That’s a rule that you made up; it’s not in the Bible.

The little plagiarized jab you have fallen in love with about “are you perfect?” or “show me the Adventist who does not sin,” is one of the oldest ruses there are to excuse away almost any scripture one would wish - in this case, with you; it’s the fourth commandment. Nice try but you have not proven that it’s wrong to claim the help of Jesus in obeying His Word; whether it’s the fourth, the first, the seventh, or any other commandment that Jesus expects His followers to obey today. Jesus states that “without Me, ye can do NOTHING.” And Jesus Himself was a “lawkeeper.” (John 15:10)

John 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
John 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

Can you please explain why it’s so wrong to want to obey Jesus?  (Acts 5:32) If we are not to obey His law, or His commands, as you state; what then do we obey?  Obedience requires commandments. (John 14:23, 24).

Protestant 101 - 02 August 2009 05:00 PM

My priorities are not likely to be the same as your’s so why make a mountain out of a molehill here on such a trivial point?

Because the issue of going to heaven while sinning was brought by you, and you were the one accusing us of seeking a religion that will let us sin and go to heaven, and this is our worldly compromise.

Protestant 101 - 28 July 2009 10:00 AM

You are of the opinion that we can still go to heaven in our sins; but Jesus came to save us, not in our sins, but FROM our sins, (John 1:29) and this is one of the tell-tale signs that your doctrine on salvation is skewered with the error of worldly compromise. Making no difference between the holy and the unholy (Ezekiel 22:26, Acts 15:9, etc) is something that God has always had to deal with. Mankind is always seeking some religion that will let them still sin; yet still go to heaven.

You were the one who consider us guilty of believing that it’s impossible to be perfect, and this was presented as something wrong.

Protestant 101 - 28 July 2009 10:00 AM

Now, lets see.  Who was it that said: “be ye therefore perfect?” (Mat 5:48). According to your salvation doctrine; this would be an impossibility. But according to Jesus, “what is impossible with men, is possible with God.” Mat 19:26 While you taunt Adventists and others for daring to repeat these words of Jesus, you actually believe that we can still go to heaven sinning?  Rev 3:12

That’s why it’s hypocritical to tell us that we make a mountain from a molehill and asks questions about living perfectly and without sin when you charged us for not believing the possibility of living without sin as a worldly compromise. When Apostle Paul spoke about being able to do all things through Christ, he spoke about a current experience or past experience he had. We believe strongly that the text doesn’t imply that we can live without sin because Paul had not lived without sin, was not sinless when he wrote what he wrote.

So, the issue is if the text speaks about the possibility and man’s ability to live without sin, and claiming this text to back up your idea is equivalent to claim that living without sin is already your experience. Either drop the idea that living without sin is a possibility, and tell us clearly that the text doesn’t affirm this possibility, or answer in affirmative to Greg’s question.

Gabriel

GABRIEL PROKSCH - 02 August 2009 07:52 PM

So, the issue is if the text speaks about the possibility and man’s ability to live without sin, and claiming this text to back up your idea is equivalent to claim that living without sin is already your experience. Either drop the idea that living without sin is a possibility, and tell us clearly that the text doesn’t affirm this possibility, or answer in affirmative to Greg’s question.
Gabriel

Greg said in post # 9 that I “narrow Phil 4:13 to a single commandment” which I never did; I stated that it applied to all commandments equally. (see post #4,#10).

You said in post #11 that I accused you of seeking a religion that seeks to go to heaven while still sinning. By your questions to me about “do you still sin;” you show that you believe that we can go to heaven while still sinning.  Someone here did say that to me; but I see it has been edited out of the post, so that’s fine. But can you tell me which post I stated that Phil 4:13 says or implies that we can “live without sin?” I didn’t say thats what the text speaks to.  I stated that it speaks to a Christian’s source of power when they choose to obey God in any, not just one of the ten commandments. There is a big difference, and you should know that only God can judge the heart and decide when someone has fulfilled Mat 5:48 here on earth.

1 Cor 6:9 is pretty obvious. People who are sinners, will not enter heaven. I don’t know how you can deny it. But what a believer’s relationship is with God now, on earth, is not something you have a right to circumscribe with your “live without sin” plagiarizing from anti-Adventist cultists. You present nothing new, nothing Biblical, in reply to posts like my post #8.  I have presented lots of scriptures and non-Adventist references about Phil 4:13, all of which you and your followers here are ignoring.

Protestant 101 - 03 August 2009 08:17 AM

You said in post #11 that I accused you of seeking a religion that seeks to go to heaven while still sinning. By your questions to me about “do you still sin;” you show that you believe that we can go to heaven while still sinning.  Someone here did say that to me; but I see it has been edited out of the post, so that’s fine. But can you tell me which post I stated that Phil 4:13 says or implies that we can “live without sin?” I didn’t say thats what the text speaks to.  I stated that it speaks to a Christian’s source of power when they choose to obey God in any, not just one of the ten commandments. There is a big difference, and you should know that only God can judge the heart and decide when someone has fulfilled Mat 5:48 here on earth.

You did not claim that Phil 4:13 says we can live without sin, but based on the way you use it as a proof-text for commandment-keeping, you would be consistent if you used it this way.

Protestant 101 - 03 August 2009 08:17 AM

1 Cor 6:9 is pretty obvious. People who are sinners, will not enter heaven. I don’t know how you can deny it. But what a believer’s relationship is with God now, on earth, is not something you have a right to circumscribe with your “live without sin” plagiarizing from anti-Adventist cultists. You present nothing new, nothing Biblical, in reply to posts like my post #8.  I have presented lots of scriptures and non-Adventist references about Phil 4:13, all of which you and your followers here are ignoring.

Repeating myself for the third time: Are you now without sin? Are you perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect? If not, by your own reasoning you are a walking dead man who has failed to “do all things through Christ” and you are destined for hell.

Greg

Protestant 101 - 03 August 2009 08:17 AM

You said in post #11 that I accused you of seeking a religion that seeks to go to heaven while still sinning. By your questions to me about “do you still sin;” you show that you believe that we can go to heaven while still sinning.

I was open about this as being my true position, the question is not if I believe it or not, but if we are guilty for holding this position or not. You think we are, so, your charge takes the form of an indictment.

The question is if it is possible to live without sin or is impossible. You obviously think that it is possible, and Greg’s question was if you based your belief in this possibility on Paul’s “I can do all things” statement of Phil. 4:13. This is a closed question admitting only two answers, yes, or no. Until this moment you had not yet answered this question. When you think that we are making a mountain from a molehill on this point, I brought to your attention that’s you’re doing the same when you condemn us for not believing in the possibility of living a sinless life.

Protestant 101 - 03 August 2009 08:17 AM

Someone here did say that to me; but I see it has been edited out of the post, so that’s fine. But can you tell me which post I stated that Phil 4:13 says or implies that we can “live without sin?” I didn’t say thats what the text speaks to.  I stated that it speaks to a Christian’s source of power when they choose to obey God in any, not just one of the ten commandments. There is a big difference, and you should know that only God can judge the heart and decide when someone has fulfilled Mat 5:48 here on earth.

Are you saying that this text does not teach the possibility of sinless living? Because what I hear is a convoluted reply:
1. first you seem to deny that you believe the text speaks about sinless living,
2. you say that it applies to any command and end with quoting Mat 5:48 which is the command to be perfect, to live without sin.

By bringing Mat 5:48, “be perfect, be sinless” and connecting it with Phil 4:13 that, in your view, speaks about power to keep the commandment, you imply that Phil. 4:13 speaks about power to live a sinless life. Again, does this text speak about the possibility of living a sinless life or not? Answer the question, “Yes” or “No”, tell us clearly what you think about this text.

And if you answer “Yes”, the question “Are you living without sin?” is a valid question. You can’t claim as Paul “I can do all things” without speaking of present experience (Paul was speaking of how Christ made him able to suffer hardships, about his past and present experience).

Protestant 101 - 03 August 2009 08:17 AM

1 Cor 6:9 is pretty obvious. People who are sinners, will not enter heaven. I don’t know how you can deny it.

That text speaks about sinners without Christ, who have not been justified and sanctified, as verse 11 tells us. Because the process of sanctification is never complete in this life, saints are still sinners and will go sinning until their last breath. These sins will condemn them if they are not justified, covered in Christ’s righteousness. You can’t apply a text that refers to sinners who are not justified and sanctified to sinners who are justified and sanctified.

Gabriel

Greg - 03 August 2009 09:07 AM

Protestant 101 - 03 August 2009 08:17 AM

You said in post #11 that I accused you of seeking a religion that seeks to go to heaven while still sinning. By your questions to me about “do you still sin;” you show that you believe that we can go to heaven while still sinning.  Someone here did say that to me; but I see it has been edited out of the post, so that’s fine. But can you tell me which post I stated that Phil 4:13 says or implies that we can “live without sin?” I didn’t say thats what the text speaks to.  I stated that it speaks to a Christian’s source of power when they choose to obey God in any, not just one of the ten commandments. There is a big difference, and you should know that only God can judge the heart and decide when someone has fulfilled Mat 5:48 here on earth.

You did not claim that Phil 4:13 says we can live without sin, but based on the way you use it as a proof-text for commandment-keeping, you would be consistent if you used it this way.Greg

In other words, you are reading something into what I have said which is not there. That is your personal conclusion, not based on Bible reasoning.