I listed to a podcast earlier today of yesterday’s radio program Stand to Reason hosted by Christian apologist Greg Koukl.  Normally, Greg takes several calls from listeners about issues relating to Christianity, Christian ethics, and apologetics in his 3-hour timeslot.  This week, however, Greg spoke with author Chris Costaldo about his book Holy Ground which is about leaving Catholicism for Protestant Christianity for the first two hours which is unusual for the show to devote so much time to one author but Greg also comes out of a Roman Catholic background so perhaps it was of special interest. 

In listening to this it seems like there were several parallels that can be drawn between leaving Catholicism and leaving Adventism.  Most notably Costaldo states that all of the differences in soteriology and other beliefs have at its root a different authority.  Protestant Christianity has Scripture as its sole authority but Roman Catholicism claims Scripture as an authority but adds church tradition, the magesterium and the papacy to the equation.  Those of us raised in Adventism know that the church also adds another authority to Scripture as a source of truth.

Here’s the link where you can find yesterday’s program: http://www.str.org/site/PageServer

Aaron
Thanks for posting this. I have been listening to Greg Koukl since 1991 on hia radio show. He is a great apologist.

Unfortunately, another friend of Greg named Frank Beckwith went back to Catholicism after coming over from RCC, but now he has returned back.

I think there is a verse in Peter somewhere talking about a dog returning to his own vomit. At least this would be perilously close to doing that.

Stan

I had the good fortune of meeting Greg Koukl a couple of weeks ago in Atlanta at the Deeper Conference where he presented two sessions.  Also presenting were Ray Comfort, Ravi Zaccharias, Kirk Cameron, and Tood Friel among others.  Of course there were many people wanting to speak with Greg informally and he did so in a very gracious and relaxed manner taking the time to give each person complete answers and not short-change anyone because of the number of folks wanting to speak with him.  His sessions on the problem of evil as an argument against God (which is really a strong proof for the existence of God) and the Trinity were excellent.  The whole conference was well worth it.  Very practical and convicting.

This was really interesting Aaron. Thanks for sharing. It always comes down to the same two main things with both Catholicism and Adventism: 1. What is your authority? and 2. How do you get right with God? Those two things are obviously very interrelated in both circles. While the “Jesus plus works” formula is usually denied by both parties, the fact remains that works play a large role in “keeping oneself in grace” for both. One need only find out two things about the investigative judgment in order to prove this. 1. Is it a judgment based on works? and 2. Can someone be ultimately lost by failing this judgment? Ellen White answers both of these questions “yes”.

The thing that is confusing to me is why modern Adventist televangelists and scholars are trying to rewrite Adventism to include some sort of assurance of salvation. These attempts usually begin and end with the bare assertion that Adventism does in fact provide assurance of salvation. It seems that the whole Adventist system is built on removing assurance of salvation in order to motivate people to more “holiness” (vegetarianism, sabbatarianism, etc.), so why try to change it at this late date (165 years after the start of the investigative judgment)? Have all the Adventists who have come before this time been missing something?

Nate

Soli Deo Gloria - 08 October 2009 03:52 AM

This was really interesting Aaron. Thanks for sharing. It always comes down to the same two main things with both Catholicism and Adventism: 1. What is your authority? and 2. How do you get right with God? Those two things are obviously very interrelated in both circles. While the “Jesus plus works” formula is usually denied by both parties, the fact remains that works play a large role in “keeping oneself in grace” for both. One need only find out two things about the investigative judgment in order to prove this. 1. Is it a judgment based on works? and 2. Can someone be ultimately lost by failing this judgment? Ellen White answers both of these questions “yes”.

The thing that is confusing to me is why modern Adventist televangelists and scholars are trying to rewrite Adventism to include some sort of assurance of salvation. These attempts usually begin and end with the bare assertion that Adventism does in fact provide assurance of salvation. It seems that the whole Adventist system is built on removing assurance of salvation in order to motivate people to more “holiness” (vegetarianism, sabbatarianism, etc.), so why try to change it at this late date (165 years after the start of the investigative judgment)? Have all the Adventists who have come before this time been missing something?

Nate

I’m glad you liked the podcast, Nate.  As with the White Horse Inn, I never miss an episode of this fine program.

As to why Adventists are now trying to include some sort of assurance of salvation I’m not sure unless they are trying to sound more evangelical and mainstream.  Of course, the problem is that if the atonement is not yet complete and whether or not you pass is determined by how you measure up against the standard of the Law then any kind of assurance is impossible...that is unless you can guarantee that you will never again sin in thought, word, deed or omission.  The only other way is to lower God’s just standard of holiness and perfection to the point of making it more doable in our own minds.  Neither way is tenable.

As Desmond Ford has said, the Investigative Judgment doctrine “cuts the nerve” of any Christian assurance of salvation.

Soli Deo Gloria - 08 October 2009 03:52 AM

This was really interesting Aaron. Thanks for sharing. It always comes down to the same two main things with both Catholicism and Adventism: 1. What is your authority? and 2. How do you get right with God? Those two things are obviously very interrelated in both circles. While the “Jesus plus works” formula is usually denied by both parties, the fact remains that works play a large role in “keeping oneself in grace” for both. One need only find out two things about the investigative judgment in order to prove this. 1. Is it a judgment based on works? and 2. Can someone be ultimately lost by failing this judgment? Ellen White answers both of these questions “yes”.

The thing that is confusing to me is why modern Adventist televangelists and scholars are trying to rewrite Adventism to include some sort of assurance of salvation. These attempts usually begin and end with the bare assertion that Adventism does in fact provide assurance of salvation. It seems that the whole Adventist system is built on removing assurance of salvation in order to motivate people to more “holiness” (vegetarianism, sabbatarianism, etc.), so why try to change it at this late date (165 years after the start of the investigative judgment)? Have all the Adventists who have come before this time been missing something?

Nate

Actually folks, this web site is very unfair to both Catholics, and Adventists, as well as any other denomination you decide to target with this “good news” “ministry.” The “Jesus plus works” mantra that you pile-drive others with is a pathetic theological ad-hominem charge which cultists such as anti-Adventists like to use on their targets. By this kind of attack; you set prejuduces against all those in both denominations, and, in all denominations, who do not subscribe to the un-Biblical whims of certain Calvinistic doctrines,

There are many, in both Catholic and Adventist Churches, who depend solely upon Jesus, and the merits of His Sacrifice; and you make it difficult for the cause of Christ by attacking with the same blanket charge against the entire denomination you are attacking. It is a good way to distract others from the falsehoods you teach; why you guys act as if God is not even in the picture; and that all we have to do is follow Calvin. I’m sure he’d roll over in his grave if he knew what terrible things you were doing to his name and his teachings on this web site.

There is such a thing as former Adventists, and then there are outright anti-Adventists. I have absolutely no problem with the former Adventists; any that I know are beautiful Christians, but then so are many Catholics I know.

Your fake claims on this site such as “I stand on the Word of God;” can be seen as nothing but lying excuses to deface the cause of Christ.  I stand by what I said earlier in other threads on this site that you do not correctly understand what Adventists teach, or you would not continue to misrepresent the people, and their teachings as you do here. You can’t even represent correctly the Catholic positions on any of the forums here where you decide to change course for a few minutes and deface these people, and their Church.

Of course, you will fire back with the typical “show us from the Bible” “righteousness” that your “ministry” is known for; yet, anyone I have talked to about this “ministry” has gone from this forum with no good news. You can’t even get along with your fellow anti-Adventist fanatics!

Absolutely nothing you have said anywhere on this site has even come close to convincing me that there is no assurance of salvation in Adventism. All you are telling people here is that you don’t trust God to work with an Adventist or a Catholic, if they remain unmoved from their doctrinal positions. And when you “limit the holy One of Israel” like this; you do not stand on the Word of God.  Heb 7:25 And before you skitter away all self-assured in the thought that I don’t know what it’s like for you; just know that I do know what it was like; I was a former Adventist for two years, and I know you are standing on sinking sand, and trying to bring others down to your level, instead of up to God’s level.

Protestants and Catholics have dramatically different interpretations of the Bible teaching on salvation. Within Protestantism the various denominations rather strenuously contradict one another. The non-Christian looks on with a wry, skeptical grin as the various Christian churches hammer away at their theological opponents or ignore them as unworthy of charitable fellowship. Even worse, within any one communion there is so much confusion on the issue of salvation that the members have difficulty identifying the distinctive teachings of their church. How did the Christian Church get into this mess? Why are there so many contradictions?

You really cannot ever speak for “the Church” or for Jesus with a web site like this.

Protestant101 - 23 October 2009 11:11 PM

Actually folks, this web site is very unfair to both Catholics, and Adventists, as well as any other denomination you decide to target with this “good news” “ministry.” The “Jesus plus works” mantra that you pile-drive others with is a pathetic theological ad-hominem charge which cultists such as anti-Adventists like to use on their targets. By this kind of attack; you set prejuduces against all those in both denominations, and, in all denominations, who do not subscribe to the un-Biblical whims of certain Calvinistic doctrines,

There are many, in both Catholic and Adventist Churches, who depend solely upon Jesus, and the merits of His Sacrifice; and you make it difficult for the cause of Christ by attacking with the same blanket charge against the entire denomination you are attacking. It is a good way to distract others from the falsehoods you teach; why you guys act as if God is not even in the picture; and that all we have to do is follow Calvin. I’m sure he’d roll over in his grave if he knew what terrible things you were doing to his name and his teachings on this web site.

There is such a thing as former Adventists, and then there are outright anti-Adventists. I have absolutely no problem with the former Adventists; any that I know are beautiful Christians, but then so are many Catholics I know.

Your fake claims on this site such as “I stand on the Word of God;” can be seen as nothing but lying excuses to deface the cause of Christ.  I stand by what I said earlier in other threads on this site that you do not correctly understand what Adventists teach, or you would not continue to misrepresent the people, and their teachings as you do here. You can’t even represent correctly the Catholic positions on any of the forums here where you decide to change course for a few minutes and deface these people, and their Church.

Of course, you will fire back with the typical “show us from the Bible” “righteousness” that your “ministry” is known for; yet, anyone I have talked to about this “ministry” has gone from this forum with no good news. You can’t even get along with your fellow anti-Adventist fanatics!

Absolutely nothing you have said anywhere on this site has even come close to convincing me that there is no assurance of salvation in Adventism. All you are telling people here is that you don’t trust God to work with an Adventist or a Catholic, if they remain unmoved from their doctrinal positions. And when you “limit the holy One of Israel” like this; you do not stand on the Word of God.  Heb 7:25 And before you skitter away all self-assured in the thought that I don’t know what it’s like for you; just know that I do know what it was like; I was a former Adventist for two years, and I know you are standing on sinking sand, and trying to bring others down to your level, instead of up to God’s level.

Protestants and Catholics have dramatically different interpretations of the Bible teaching on salvation. Within Protestantism the various denominations rather strenuously contradict one another. The non-Christian looks on with a wry, skeptical grin as the various Christian churches hammer away at their theological opponents or ignore them as unworthy of charitable fellowship. Even worse, within any one communion there is so much confusion on the issue of salvation that the members have difficulty identifying the distinctive teachings of their church. How did the Christian Church get into this mess? Why are there so many contradictions?

You really cannot ever speak for “the Church” or for Jesus with a web site like this.

Hi Protestant 101,

You say some very hateful things. I have not called you names, questioned your salvation, called you a cult member, accused you of following a person rather than Christ, or any of the other things you have routinely done on this site. I have only made arguments against some of the doctrines of the Adventist Church (which I was a part of for 26 years, much shorter than most of the people on here). I have not attacked you or any other Adventist personally in any of my posts. If you were giving constructive criticism, I would thankfully accept it. If you were actually arguing the points that we make, then there would probably be some more people who would like talking to you. I know many Adventists, and very few of them act like you do when the doctrines of their church are questioned.

Treat others the way you would like to be treated, Protestant 101. If you want us to respect you, be respectful. If you have a legitimate argument to make with regard to a specific topic, then make it. If you truly feel that I have misrepresented the Adventist position on something, then give some evidence proving your point.

I hope and pray that you will read this post as I mean it: with a deep heartfelt longing to have fellowship with you as a brother in Christ. However, unless you treat people with respect, even if they disagree with you, I fear that this cannot happen.

I will continue to pray for you Protestant 101.

Nate

Soli Deo Gloria - 24 October 2009 12:41 AM

Hi Protestant 101,

You say some very hateful things. I have not called you names, questioned your salvation, called you a cult member, accused you of following a person rather than Christ, or any of the other things you have routinely done on this site. I have only made arguments against some of the doctrines of the Adventist Church (which I was a part of for 26 years, much shorter than most of the people on here). I have not attacked you or any other Adventist personally in any of my posts. If you were giving constructive criticism, I would thankfully accept it. If you were actually arguing the points that we make, then there would probably be some more people who would like talking to you. I know many Adventists, and very few of them act like you do when the doctrines of their church are questioned.

Treat others the way you would like to be treated, Protestant 101. If you want us to respect you, be respectful. If you have a legitimate argument to make with regard to a specific topic, then make it. If you truly feel that I have misrepresented the Adventist position on something, then give some evidence proving your point.

I hope and pray that you will read this post as I mean it: with a deep heartfelt longing to have fellowship with you as a brother in Christ. However, unless you treat people with respect, even if they disagree with you, I fear that this cannot happen.

I will continue to pray for you Protestant 101.

Nate

For you to get personally defensive is not appropriate here. I have been addressing the overall website, as a “ministry.” You are a part of this web site so if you have done anything I have “accused” this web site of then maybe you need to think about your involvement here.

I can see it makes you feel good to accuse me of “hatred” and many other similar adjectives; yet there is nothing in my last post that is not true, or that you have managed to even half prove wrong. You are NOT just questioning Adventist doctrine here; and there is nothing “hateful” about anyone saying so. My comments re how you follow Calvin are proved by the posters on this web site.

You so righteously tell me to treat others the way I would want to be treated; and yes, you did it “respectfully,” but I would actually want someone to set me straight, and to be firm about it if I needed it. I can take it just fine, without having to resort to furtive cries of “hatefulness” and other such ad-hominem whackings. I am treating you just the way I would expect to be treated. I have no problem with it, and I don’t see it as hateful. When you are able to prove me wrong, I will shut up. I guess you would also call Jesus “hateful” for calling certain ones “dogs” or “whoremongers.” There is a time and a place to say it like it is brother. The truth actually does hurt, doesn’t it? Maybe someday you will see what “ministries” like this really are. Anyone who knows me would also realize that what I post here is not just internet ramblings; I would speak just like this in person, if I thought it was needed. I believe it is important.

The only way I was able to see the absolute falsehood of what you people are doing is to actually go there myself, so I did for two years. I was a former Adventist, but I don’t regret a minute of it.  Jesus was with me the whole time; just as He is with you now. He led me out of that darkness, (Mic 7:8,18) and back into the Adventist Church, and it was because I saw the Christ-centered assurance of salvation in the Investigative Doctrine as taught by the Church. It teaches us how Jesus is our Sacrifice, our Mediator, High Priest, and our Judge.

The Investigative Judgment is that which ratifies (Rom 3:26) the decision as to who will be saved and who will be lost, so it must take place before the Second Advent, for at that time Christ returns with His reward “`to give to every one according to his work’” (Rev 22:12). Then, also, Satan’s accusations will be answered(cf. Rev 12:10). But by ratifying; or giving according to the works, it in no sense takes the place of Christ’s shed blood; rather, it affirms the merits of Christ. You and this web site say the opposite, so you misrepresent the Adventist Church and her teachings. You say in one breath that Adventists are not Christians if they belief such and such; and in the next breath, when pressed to prove your points, you back track and say “I didn’t say you weren’t a Christian.” It’s really hard to even understand you, let alone believe you. When you can disprove anything I said in my last post, then we’ll have something concrete to talk about.

I first posted on this site the way I did because of the general way this site’s Calvinist Cultists malign and defame Adventists. Dennis and Greg being the two worst culprits. This site does not just question our doctrines. How you can say that and keep a straight face; I’l never know. All I do know is that I can see I was right in my first post on this web site because of the way you have consistently responded. Like I said, there are former Adventists, and there are anti-Adventists. Guess what the world sees here?

If you truly did want christian fellowship with myself or any other Adventist, why doesn’t it happen? Why has it not yet happened here on this site? Not just with me but with anyone?  Mat 7:16, 20

Protestant101 - 24 October 2009 02:58 AM

Like I said, there are former Adventists, and there are anti-Adventists.

The more and more I fellowship with ‘former SDAs’, the more I see this statement as being true. I have entertained the idea of walking away from the official SDA church. Though I disagree with some of our doctrines, I have no animosity to the church as a whole. I could see myself being a ‘former Adventist’, but I would never be an anti-Adventist.

I can be critical of the SDA church and still consider it a Christian faith and have them as my brothers, just as I can about those who adhere to Calvinism, eternal torment and the secret rapture.

Sadly, some do not show that same Christian courtesy to the SDA church.

Hi Protestant 101,

Because our conversation has degraded to this level, I will no longer be responding to you, although I want you to know that as a brother in Christ I will continue to pray for you and your family. God bless.

Respectfully,

Nate

Soli Deo Gloria - 24 October 2009 11:08 AM

Hi Protestant 101,

Because our conversation has degraded to this level, I will no longer be responding to you, although I want you to know that as a brother in Christ I will continue to pray for you and your family. God bless.

Respectfully,

Nate

What a convenient excuse Nate. What you are really saying is that you have no answer for the concerns I have raised. What on earth would you pray about for me? If you are unwilling to try to address the concerns raised; and if you want “fellowship” then why not actually work towards it, and show the public you are willing to change course from this ridiculous ministry and actually do that? Otherwise, your prayer is just a wish.

guibox - 24 October 2009 08:35 AM

Sadly, some do not show that same Christian courtesy to the SDA church.

Guibox, you’ve been shown a lot of courtesy on this site. You should read all of your Adventist brother Prostestant 101’s posts before you join your voice in agreement with him.

Greg

Soli Deo Gloria - 24 October 2009 12:41 AM

I hope and pray that you will read this post as I mean it: with a deep heartfelt longing to have fellowship with you as a brother in Christ. However, unless you treat people with respect, even if they disagree with you, I fear that this cannot happen.

I will continue to pray for you Protestant 101.

Nate, thanks for showing us what Christian love looks like. We all can learn much from your example.

Matthew 10:14

Greg

Greg - 24 October 2009 02:01 PM

Soli Deo Gloria - 24 October 2009 12:41 AM

I hope and pray that you will read this post as I mean it: with a deep heartfelt longing to have fellowship with you as a brother in Christ. However, unless you treat people with respect, even if they disagree with you, I fear that this cannot happen.

I will continue to pray for you Protestant 101.

Nate, thanks for showing us what Christian love looks like. We all can learn much from your example.

Matthew 10:14

Greg

And your point being? You just proved one of my points with this comment. 2 Tim 2:19