I don’t think anyone is questioning whether or not EGW was well meaning. However she would be politically incorrect today and she would have been politically incorrect with Christ and his disciples. Prejudice is when a leadership ignores the truth even refuses to examine the issue for fear of what the truth is and what the consequences might be. They shoot themselves in the foot. The strong move is not to stick your head in the sand and wish for conformity. The strong move is to look at the facts and reform the church according to scripture. Many ex SDA people would race back to the church if the church would just follow the scripture and stop defending their errors. What is happening now is the errors are being magnified and examined in the public eye and it will become more and more untenable to hold to the old erroneous ways. Sorry friend but you are defending a loser. their is no way out of the box which grows tighter and tighter except by way of truth. If nobody is willing to do the right thing over the next ten years I predict that the majority of your membership will drift into other denominations or non-denominations. I personally don’t care what happens as I am not a member but it would be sad to see such a large community of good people disbanded for lack of truth.
Why don’t you check the statistics and see the growth of the 7th Day Adventist Church worldwide, in comparison to the millions who left the Bapitsts, Presbyterians, Methodists in the US and other countries?
People leaving churches is normal everywhere, and the SDA Church is no exception, especially in the face of natural difficulties for following its teachings, like keeping the Sabbath, food and drink restrictions, conservative positions regarding many issues that others don’t promote, having instead a much wider and comfortable “way to heaven”.
But they are bigger losers, anyway.
So, these anti-SDA conspiracy theories don’t impress me at all. And so far I haven’t been said which GOOD NEWS are these that we, Seventh-day Adventists, need urgently to know. . .
As a former “New Alliancer” I am not impressed, at all, with all these anti-SDA bashing blah, blah, blah’s I see here regarding the “errors” of SDAims. I know very well both sides of the debate.
We don’t live in 1844 anymore. Today any beginner can check and test all doctrine quickly using as many translations of the bible, concordances, and biblical dictionaries as he wishes from the comfort of his home on the Internet. In minutes false doctrines can be dissected and laid bare. It’s not about prejudice anymore. It’s all about the facts and what is really stated in God’s word. Technology is at work and more and more false doctrines of all churches who have them will be brought into the light. If I were leading a church with false doctrine and false prophecies, I would tremble.
You my friend I leave to your opinion. Based on your last post I will stand.
People leaving churches is normal everywhere, and the SDA Church is no exception, especially in the face of natural difficulties for following its teachings, like keeping the Sabbath, food and drink restrictions, conservative positions regarding many issues that others don’t promote, having instead a much wider and comfortable “way to heaven”.
Food and drink restrictions??? Do you not know that those are totally unBiblical and doctrines of demons?
“But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
2by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
3men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
4For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;
5for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.” (1 Timothy 4:1-5 NASB.)
“Eat anything that is sold in the meat market without asking questions for conscience’ sake;
26FOR THE EARTH IS THE LORD’S, AND ALL IT CONTAINS.” (1 Corinthians 10:25-26 NASB.)
“And He said to them, ‘Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him,
19because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?’ (Thus He declared all foods clean.)” (Mark 7:18-19 NASB.)
“Do not be carried away by varied and strange teachings; for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, through which those who were so occupied were not benefited.” (Hebrews 13:9 NASB.)
“I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.” (Romans 14:14 NASB.)
“for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.” (Romans 14:17 NASB.)
“Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense.” (Romans 14:20 NASB.)
“Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--
17things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.” (Colossians 2:16-17 NASB.)
Well, I think that subject deserves a new topic. I can prove through the Scriptures that the food laws are totally valid for the Church today, for one single reason: they were NOT ceremonial, typical of any aspect of Jesus’ death.
In order to begin discussing that, I have these questions that must be answered so that the subject is plainly clarified:
1 – Why did God establish these food restriction laws, to begin with? Did He simply decide arbitrarily that certain types of meat were not to be eaten, without any justifiable reason, and that was it?
2 – In what aspects were these dietary rules abolished on the cross, since they had no ceremonial character? In what ways did they point to the atoning sacrifice of Christ?
Note.: Somebody suggested that they would symbolize separation between Jews and Gentiles. But if it is so, would God be including is His law some negative element of man’s idiossincracies, since He is no respecter of people?
3 – How was the shed blood of Christ efficacious to purify the meat of pigs, rats, ravens, snakes, lizards? Could it have accomplished some change in the structural composition of said meats, making them fit for human consumption?
4—Where is it said that God changed His mind from considering “abomination” the eating of these meats (Deu. 14:3), for until the final day, when all “nations and languages” are gathered for their reckoning time, those who eat pork, rat and practice idolatry will be jointly destroyed (Isa. 66:16-18)?
1Co 10:25 Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience.
1Co 10:26 For “the earth is the Lord’s, and the fullness thereof.” (ESV)
Mar 7:18 And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him,
Mar 7:19 since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.) (ESV)
Rom 14:14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean.
Rom 14:15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died.
Rom 14:16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil.
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. (ESV)
1Ti 4:4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,
1Ti 4:5 for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer. (ESV)
Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
(ESV)
Eat what you want just be sure to be grateful and pray over it.
Well, I think that subject deserves a new topic. I can prove through the Scriptures that the food laws are totally valid for the Church today, for one single reason: they were NOT ceremonial, typical of any aspect of Jesus’ death.
In order to begin discussing that, I have these questions that must be answered so that the subject is plainly clarified:
1 – Why did God establish these food restriction laws, to begin with? Did He simply decide arbitrarily that certain types of meat were not to be eaten, without any justifiable reason, and that was it?
2 – In what aspects were these dietary rules abolished on the cross, since they had no ceremonial character? In what ways did they point to the atoning sacrifice of Christ?
Note.: Somebody suggested that they would symbolize separation between Jews and Gentiles. But if it is so, would God be including is His law some negative element of man’s idiossincracies, since He is no respecter of people?
God explicitly says that it is because they were to be separate from the Gentiles! Read it for yourself:
“‘Hence I have said to you, ‘You are to possess their land, and I Myself will give it to you to possess it, a land flowing with milk and honey.’ I am the LORD your God, who has separated you from the peoples.
25’You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean.
26’Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the LORD am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine.” (Leviticus 20:24-26 NASB.)
Notice that the very reason God gives for them to abstain from unclean meats was because He had separated them from “the peoples” ("Gentiles"). And notice that He clearly states that He separated these animals “as unclean” for “them” (Israel) only.
Also see Ephesians 2:
“Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called ‘Uncircumcision’ by the so-called ‘Circumcision,’ which is performed in the flesh by human hands--
12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
15by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
16and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.” (Ephesians 2:11-16 NASB.)
Also, you claim that the Law of Leviticus 11 (which is a single law--see verse 46) is not ceremonial and yet SDAs do not believe in keeping all of the commands in Leviticus 11, such as verses 24-40!
Azenilto Brito - 31 July 2010 07:24 PM
3 – How was the shed blood of Christ efficacious to purify the meat of pigs, rats, ravens, snakes, lizards? Could it have accomplished some change in the structural composition of said meats, making them fit for human consumption?
They have always been fit for human consumption. See the verses I quoted above in my previous post from 1 Timothy 4. All foods were created by God to be eaten. God gave Noah all meats to eat, and Gentiles were always able to enjoy all meats. “Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant.” (Genesis 9:3 NASB.)
Azenilto Brito - 31 July 2010 07:24 PM
4—Where is it said that God changed His mind from considering “abomination” the eating of these meats (Deu. 14:3), for until the final day, when all “nations and languages” are gathered for their reckoning time, those who eat pork, rat and practice idolatry will be jointly destroyed (Isa. 66:16-18)?
Where is it said? God’s Words are right in front of you, in all of those passages I quoted for you in my previous post, and yet you stubbornly close your eyes and refuse to believe them.
Nobody anwered what I asked. God indicates Israel as a separate nation in regard to ALL His commandments, including the “golden rule” of love to God above all else, and love to the neighbor, which Christians understand to apply to them and to the entire humanity (see Deut. 6:5; Lev. 19:18).
What you miss is the REASON why Israel was chosen, a frequent mistake among Protestant and Catholics. These people can’t understand that Israel was not chosen just to receive PRIVILEGES, but to fulfill a MISSION: To be “IHWH’s witnesses” and “light of the Gentiles . . . to the ends of the Earth” (Isa. 43:10; 49:6). All this “superiority” of Israel was to be conveyed to the other peoples, so that God’s ideal, expressed in Isa. 56:2-7, that “My house will be called a house of prayer to ALL PEOPLES” were accomplished.
God is no respecter of people, so why would He restrict the blessings associated with Sabbath keeping and from not eating food that could mean DEATH (as the ebola fever transmitted by the monkey-eating habits of the Africans, even HIV-AIDS suspected to be thus transmitted) just to the people of Israel?
And remember that Isa. 56:2-7 is an invitation to FOREIGNERS to accept His legal provisions to Israel, which would include Sabbath keeping. So, God’s laws WERE NOT to benefit only Israel. That has never been God’s plan, as He expressed to Abraham, through whom “all the nations of the Earth” would be blessed.
As to the shoot out of texts out of context (the well known methodological flaw in many Bible themes analyses), first of all I would like to have EVERY ONE and ALL of my basic questions answered, one by one, not through distorted generalizations, please.
Joel Osteen, the famous Christian author and pastor of a megachurch in Houston, TX, can help us to be, perhaps not more prosperous and accomplished, but certainly healthier. See this video that can teach us one lesson or two on God’s dietary rules:
I don’t think anybody cares about those questions besides you. You seem to have a contaminated view and were not planning to go there with you.
I consider not answering them LACK OF UNDERSTANDING of the whole matter.
Not answering them, preferring, instead, to resort to this shoot out of texts out of context shows that those who don’t deem important to have these points clarified are really brainwashed by the error of the “abolished law” false theology of neo-antonimianism that prevails in the Evangelical ranks nowadays.
Joel Osteen, the famous Christian author and pastor of a megachurch in Houston, TX, can help us to be, perhaps not more prosperous and accomplished, but certainly healthier. See this video that can teach us one lesson or two on God’s dietary rules:
I find it curious that you choose to quote from another false prophet by the name of Joel Osteen. This man has absolutely no credibility in the Christian community. You might as well be quoting from Harold Camping or other cult leaders.
Anyone who contradicts the very clear testimony of 1 Timothy 4 is a false prophet whether it is Joel Osteen or Ellen White
Now the Spirit expressly says that yin later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2 through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, 3 who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.
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Brito,
Please try to explain the above text and how you can get around the obvious teaching of the true apostle Paul, rather than the false prophets Joel Osteen and Ellen White?
I will explain all texts that you want, but FIRST answer my four questions, one by one, please.
Now, I don’t quote Osteen as the ‘last word’ in Theology, but as an example of non-Adventists who had some glimpse of the true understanding of this matter. Besides, he has quite an audience, and the readers of his books certainly can be counted in the millions, which means a good deal of credibility, no doubt. As to being a “false prophet”, let’s leave that judgment to God.
There are other interesting data by another non-Adventist, Rex Russell, who wrote the book What the Bible Says About Healthy Living, in 1996. Among other subjects he deals with the clean/unclean meats in the Bible, and he quotes a study by David Match (M. D.), of the Johns Hopkins Univ., evaluating the level of toxicity in the clean meats (low) in contrast with that of unclean ones (high), according to studies carried out in laboratory.
Now, I don’t quote Osteen as the ‘last word’ in Theology, but as an example of non-Adventists who had some glimpse of the true understanding of this matter. Besides, he has quite an audience, and the readers of his books certainly can be counted in the millions, which means a good deal of credibility, no doubt. As to being a “false prophet”, let’s leave that judgment to God.
Dear Brother,
Satan has “quite an audience” (many followers) also! What does that say about his credibility...? And since when are book sales numbers a measure of Truth? You’re grasping at straws here…
Regarding clean/unclean foods (a.k.a. meat) how do you answer this Scriptural entreaty from St. Paul:
1 Corinthians 10:25-26 (NIV) 25 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.”
Paul is addressing a believer’s freedom in such matters and was saying to not worry about whether or not the meat had been sacrificed to idols. Though I don’t know if such meat was generally sold in markets in his day; he was saying, because idols are nothing don’t worry about it! However, note the complete absence of the clean/unclean specification!
Here’s another example from Scripture:
Acts 21:25 (NIV) 21 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.
The above is a very simple and direct set of instructions to new Gentile believers about what not to eat. Again, no mention of clean/unclean animals.
Dear friend… Your mention of Olsteen as a source of wisdom says volumes…
I have one simple question for you… Are you a Jew who considers himself to (still) be under the Mosaic law? Or are you, like most of us, a non-Jew (Gentile) to whom St. Paul is addressing these messages? Remember that the first covenant failed because they (the Jews) tried to gain salvation by works. A new and better covenant was made so as to bring in God’s elect and thereby leave no room for boasting. The issues of clean and unclean and sabbath days are all boastful shadows of the old covenant which has passed away. The new covenant was put into place so that there would be salvation by God alone and not of men. Therefore, no one (but God) could boast.
As to being a “false prophet”, let’s leave that judgment to God.
Why should we leave that judgment to God when God tells us we are to “know” the false prophets and when God commands us to test the prophets and make that judgment for ourselves? See the following passages:
“’Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16’You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17’So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18’A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19’Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20’So then, you will know them by their fruits.” (Matthew 7:15-20 NASB.)
“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.” (1 John 4:1-3 NASB.)
